Hahn is getting all the praise, Theo no longer "Sainted"

[daggins]

Dombrowski being a "hack" is pretty revisionist history, considering the Tigers spent the better part of the last two decades at or near the top of the division.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Wrong. Some people are actually capable of analyzing something without looking at W/L's for a manager. As has been noted 1000 times, this argument implies that Ned Yost is a better manager than Kevin Cash. Let that sink in for a minute.

And are you really defending Larussa and Stewarts tenure in Arizona? My lord.

Just pointing out it didn’t take 12 years for them to get back to the playoffs...not even half that.

Cash also is part of a system that extracts the most value out of every penny they spend.   At any rate, separating Maddon and Friedman is next to impossible, or Maddon and Epstein.  Or Luhnow and Hinch.
 

Talent makes any manager look better...Ozzie said that a million times. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

 

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

But that’s the point...you’re giving them credit for rushing him up in two years, but he wasn’t ready.

Same thing with Beckham, and Viciedo as well.

We did that because it was easier than paying real money in free agency...and for the same reasons we drafted Sale and Burdi, although proximity to the big leagues worked out in the Sale case.  
 

Of course, that’s yet another potential HoF talent who won’t go in wearing a White Sox cap.  

The Sox didn't bring up Semien to save Free Agency money. Just stop. 

They drafted Sale because they liked him; not to save money in free agency. These are some hot takes for sure.

[caulfield12]

Just now, daggins said:

Dombrowski being a "hack" is pretty revisionist history, considering the Tigers spent the better part of the last two decades at or near the top of the division.

All NFL organizations are hacks, except the Patriots...

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Just pointing out it didn’t take 12 years for them to get back to the playoffs...not even half that.

Cash also is part of a system that extracts the most value out of every penny they spend.   At any rate, separating Maddon and Friedman is next to impossible, or Maddon and Epstein.  Or Luhnow and Hinch.
 

Talent makes any manager look better...Ozzie said that a million times. 

Who cares how long it took to get back there? Stewart and LaRussa made horrible move after horrible move. 

How is separating Maddon from Friedman impossible?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, daggins said:

Dombrowski being a "hack" is pretty revisionist history, considering the Tigers spent the better part of the last two decades at or near the top of the division.

Dombrowski has zero clue how to build an organization; he knows how to spend with endless budgets on big free agents - many who have destroyed the Tigers franchise. Then he went to the Red Sox and did the same exact shit. 

[caulfield12]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

 

The Sox didn't bring up Semien to save Free Agency money. Just stop. 

They drafted Sale because they liked him; not to save money in free agency. These are some hot takes for sure.

He was perceived by many as a reliever and the closest to the big leagues on draft day.

Semien was brought up because for ten+ years we never had enough quality depth...

[FloydBannister1983]

17 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Also, I'll put my baseball acumen up against yours any day you'd like pal. I don't run around calling you a moron for having a differing opinion. I speak from a place of actual knowledge - given that I played the game at a high level and no player walks around blaming their manager for anything other than playing time. I also understand the need for analytic implementation - as I am a big believer in it, as is clear by my posts and analysis here - but the incorrect assumption that every poster makes is that all players want the data... they want the information. That's simply not true. 

Who called you a moron?  I called LaRussa (sarcastically) a moron.  If you read it differently I do sincerely apologize for that.

 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Juschill

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, Juschill said:

I thought the same thing.  Renteria is a “serious baseball man” and LaRussa is a moron.

 

That says all you need to know.

 

Again, Renteria has spent 4 decades in the game and literally worked his way up through the minor league ranks and earned his place; he wasn't handed anything. You can disagree with his strategy, but to claim Renteria isn't a serious baseball man is hilarious. LaRussa was a serious baseball man, and he was also a know it all asshat who proved to be a moron when it came to evaluating talent and actually trying to build his own roster/vision.

[daggins]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Dombrowski has zero clue how to build an organization; he knows how to spend with endless budgets on big free agents - many who have destroyed the Tigers franchise. Then he went to the Red Sox and did the same exact shit. 

The Tigers made the WS twice and won the division 4 years in a row under Dombrowski; the Red Sox won a WS. The game has changed and I think his time as an effective GM is over but to deny his success is to deny objective reality.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Who cares how long it took to get back there? Stewart and LaRussa made horrible move after horrible move. 

How is separating Maddon from Friedman impossible?

Maddon won with two organizations.  With two of the supposed Top 3-5 front office execs in all of baseball.  But nobody will be surprised if they don’t make the playoffs this year.

How good is he, really?

Francona has won with both small and large market teams.  But CLE also has one of the best front offices in baseball.  How good is Francona?

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He was perceived by many as a reliever and the closest to the big leagues on draft day.

Semien was brought up because for ten+ years we never had enough quality depth...

Just stop; this is the worst take I've ever seen. The Sox drafted Sale because they wanted to save money in FA. You are discrediting one of the best draft picks in baseball in the last 2 decades. How hilarious is that. 

The Sox very CLEARLY thought Sale was a starter. They were very clearly correct in their evaluation.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Maddon won with two organizations.  With two of the supposed Top 3-5 front office execs in all of baseball.  But nobody will be surprised if they don’t make the playoffs this year.

How good is he, really?

Francona has won with both small and large market teams.  But CLE also has one of the best front offices in baseball.  How good is Francona?

 

Maddon had the best roster in baseball in TB and won nothing. He didn't "win" with two organizations any more than Jerry Manual won with the White Sox.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[mqr]

14 minutes ago, Juschill said:

I don’t think that team would hire Renteria.  Nobody was beating down his door when he was sitting next to Ventura.

 

They could have hired Joe Schmo is my point. Joe Torre, for example, isn't a great manager because he knew when to bunt or when to turn it over to the best relief pitcher to ever do it, he's a great manager because he helped keep one of the greatest rosters ever constructed from wanting to beat the shit out of each other on a daily basis. 

I'd also go on record saying moving A-rod to leave Jeter at short is one of the worst tactical decisions ever made, but from a team continuity and chemistry standpoint, which is what I'm arguing is a managers real job, makes sense. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by mqr

[caulfield12]

Just now, daggins said:

The Tigers made the WS twice and won the division 4 years in a row under Dombrowski; the Red Sox won a WS. The game has changed and I think his time as an effective GM is over but to deny his success is to deny objective reality.

Then they should just go to $$$ spent per fWAR (most efficiently) to award titles.

Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, Oakland, MN can win every year!

[ptatc]

12 minutes ago, daggins said:

Dombrowski being a "hack" is pretty revisionist history, considering the Tigers spent the better part of the last two decades at or near the top of the division.

He lead the Marlins championships as well.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, mqr said:

They could have hired Joe Schmo is my point. Joe Torre, for example, isn't a great manager because he knew when to bunt or when to turn it over to the best relief pitcher to ever do it, he's a great manager because he helped keep one of the greatest rosters ever constructed from wanting to beat the shit out of each other on a daily basis. 

Manager's manage people - that is their most important attribute. This team just went through miserable years, and you never heard a negative word come out of that clubhouse. People can chose to ignore that all they'd like, but after witnessing the Ventura debacle, and the embarrassment it caused this organization, I have no idea how people can just ignore this aspect of the game. It was very telling, and showed that the players like Ricky and support/defend/play hard for him. That is 99% of his job.

[Moan4Yoan]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Maddon had the best roster in baseball in TB and won nothing. He didn't "win" with two organizations any more than Jerry Manual won with the White Sox.

So Dombrowski can only win because he spends boatloads of money but Maddon sucks because he couldn’t win with a team that’s had one of the lowest payrolls in baseball?

Man, the hypocrisy!

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

He lead the Marlins championships as well.

Domborwski is a lot like Kenny Williams with bigger budgets. The style can clearly work in the short term, but the insistence on building your team with veterans by trading away all your prospects is not a viable way of maintaining sustained success at the big league level.

[Moan4Yoan]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

He lead the Marlins championships as well.

Yup.  OOPS!!!

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Just stop; this is the worst take I've ever seen. The Sox drafted Sale because they wanted to save money in FA. You are discrediting one of the best draft picks in baseball in the last 2 decades. How hilarious is that. 

The Sox very CLEARLY thought Sale was a starter. They were very clearly correct in their evaluation.

I never said that about Sale.

We were talking about Semien.

And yes, they could still NEED a reliever in the heart of the 2010 pennant race and still project him as a starter eventually.

In fact, their two best starters in 15-20 years in Buehrle and Sale started out with plenty of doubters. 
 

But LaRussa is a junk manager because of Canseco and McGwire, when every team in baseball was filled with players doing the exact same things for a generation.

Okay. 
 

Why is it that Francona and Epstein get a free pass for Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, then?

[ptatc]

7 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Renteria has managed two teams and four miserable seasons to the tune of a 272–375 lifetime record.  He is also 58 years old so he already could be considered an “old manager.”  Obviously, lack of success could be dictated by having weak rosters but questionable managerial decisions in games on a frequent basis cannot be.  The Cubs immediately cut him loose after only one season once a better manager became available.  There was obvious lack of interest in him by teams needing a manager until the Sox came along who are notorious for not wanting to pay much for managers.  I guess it could all be a coincidence and none of it is Renteria’s fault.  Or it appears there are several key signs that point to Renteria not being valued as a quality manager throughout the MLB, regardless of any of our fan opinions.

He was also handed two rebuilding teams. He has never had a major league quality team to manage.

I'm not saying he is a good or bad manager. I think the jury is still out.

However, in the long run it really doesnt make that much of a difference as I dont think he is need Yost or Mike Matheny  and even they could win with good teams.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Moan4Yoan said:

So Dombrowski can only win because he spends boatloads of money but Maddon sucks because he couldn’t win with a team that’s had one of the lowest payrolls in baseball?

Man, the hypocrisy!

What? He said Maddon won in two places - he didn't. He had the talent to win in Tampa, and didn't win. Maddon has had some incredibly talented rosters in his managerial career, and he got the team across the finish line once. He's not a terrible manager and he's not a great one. He's just another guy among all the others running a team. 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Then they should just go to $$$ spent per fWAR (most efficiently) to award titles.

Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Tampa Bay, Oakland, MN can win every year!

WAR flags fly forever.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I never said that about Sale.

We were talking about Semien.

And yes, they could still NEED a reliever in the heart of the 2010 pennant race and still project him as a starter eventually.

In fact, their two best starters in 15-20 years in Buehrle and Sale started out with plenty of doubters. 
 

But LaRussa is a junk manager because of Canseco and McGwire, when every team in baseball was filled with players doing the exact same things for a generation.

Okay. 
 

Why is it that Francona and Epstein get a free pass for Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz, then?

You said exactly that about Sale, I literally quoted your post.

And they didn't draft Sale to be a reliever for 2010. Just stop. Who gives a shit if they had doubters? If anything, that is a positive for the White Sox but you spin it negatively.