Hahn is getting all the praise, Theo no longer "Sainted"

[chitownsportsfan]

21 minutes ago, black jack said:

I dislike the idea of a floor.  It would become a "get out of jail free" card to the rich teams.

They could give away their bad contracts to tanking teams trying to reach it.

See I like the idea of having to get to the floor as you'd see more player movement like that.  The NBA usually has a couple clubs looking to to just that each year and can make for some interesting trades.

[Bob Sacamano]

27 minutes ago, black jack said:

I dislike the idea of a floor.  It would become a "get out of jail free" card to the rich teams.

They could give away their bad contracts to tanking teams trying to reach it.

It could make for some interesting trades. Or they can just overpay guys on short term deals.

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

See I like the idea of having to get to the floor as you'd see more player movement like that.  The NBA usually has a couple clubs looking to to just that each year and can make for some interesting trades.

Just the fact that you had almost half of MLB (so far) only adding $15 million or less in terms of new FA contracts goes to show the need for a floor to protect the fans (somewhat) and also to increase competitiveness of lower-level/small market/tanking teams.

That's pretty embarrassing, and it's not like all of those clubs are poor, because you have the Dodgers, Giants, Red Sox and Cubs in that category...even the Cardinals, who run their franchise about as well as possible considering they're never going to be generating hundreds of millions from their local media deal regardless of how good their franchise does in terms of W/L %.

[kitekrazy]

Cubs ditched Ricky - Sox keepin him so far.   Cubs have always taking who runs the club far more seriously even though that worked for them once.  We have the only manager in baseball that batter the worst hitter 4th. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, kitekrazy said:

Cubs ditched Ricky - Sox keepin him so far.   Cubs have always taking who runs the club far more seriously even though that worked for them once.  We have the only manager in baseball that batter the worst hitter 4th. 

The Cubs ditched Ricky because Maddon became available. Is there a Maddon out there currently?

[Moan4Yoan]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

The Cubs ditched Ricky because Maddon became available. Is there a Maddon out there currently?

Uhhh, Maddon WAS available this offseason, as was Girardi.  Both would have been improvements on Renteria.

[ptatc]

58 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Uhhh, Maddon WAS available this offseason, as was Girardi.  Both would have been improvements on Renteria.

True but I for one would not want Maddon. I've never liked his managing.  

Girardi is a different story. He may have been worth it.

However if the players support Renteria it's not that big of a deal because the managers primary job in today's game is to work with the players as the game managing really doesnt change the result of many games.

[Moan4Yoan]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

True but I for one would not want Maddon. I've never liked his managing.  

Girardi is a different story. He may have been worth it.

However if the players support Renteria it's not that big of a deal because the managers primary job in today's game is to work with the players as the game managing really doesnt change the result of many games.

It won’t be a big deal unless the Sox lose the division to the Twins by a couple games or so.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 1/6/2020 at 6:51 AM, poppysox said:

When a team has a Bryant who announces up front there will be no extensions...I strongly believe that player needs to be put on the block while the team has 2 years of control left.  Cubs are going to get bubcus for Bryant instead of a pretty nice haul which would have been available had they moved him earlier.  RH needs to work very hard to get extensions for Gio and Moncada types.  RH has been very good at this by the way.

Nonsense. When you have a player like Bryant you should not be outspent to retain him.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 1/6/2020 at 12:47 AM, chitownsportsfan said:

I wouldn't be so quick to praise Hahn or discredit Theo.  Theo won a title, and seemingly is operating under similar restrictions to Hahn, despite an annual revenue roughly 20-40% larger.

Theo would probably like the Chapman trade back.  But flags fly forever and when dealing with ownership that has profit somewhere around the same as winning it's not that easy.

This is quite a rosey picture you paint of theo - something you wouldnt so for Hahn.

1. The cubs are not operating anywhere near under the same restrictions as hahn. 

2. Theo was granted a top 3 payroll and misspent, terribly, his way to achieving that number. Theo's terrible free agent acquisitions are exactly why the cubs are in this position.

3. This is not the first time theo has failed miserably in FA setting a franchise back.

4. Hahn hasnt achieved anything yet - theo's history is much more impressive but history does not predict next year and by all accounts, the Cubs have fallen way back in the analytical and analysis pack. While the sox have grown exponentially in that world, the cubs have declined.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

Cubs ditched Ricky - Sox keepin him so far.   Cubs have always taking who runs the club far more seriously even though that worked for them once.  We have the only manager in baseball that batter the worst hitter 4th. 

Managers. Mean. Nothing.

[ptatc]

17 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

It won’t be a big deal unless the Sox lose the division to the Twins by a couple games or so.

True if he actually costs them games as opposed to gaining them a couple. Keep track of every game and the moves he makes. Dont just focus on the ones they lose and what you disagree with. Because odds are you wont pay attention to the moves in the games they win.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Uhhh, Maddon WAS available this offseason, as was Girardi.  Both would have been improvements on Renteria.

Maddon is blah. Theres nothing telling me hes better strategically than anyone else. 

Maddon treats his players like kids - which is why he sours on players after a while. Petting zoo's at spring training? Theme trips every week? Its childish and not something I would have enjoyed as a player - I'm sure some do enjoy it though.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Maddon is blah. Theres nothing telling me hes better strategically than anyone else. 

Maddon treats his players like kids - which is why he sours on players after a while. Petting zoo's at spring training? Theme trips every week? Its childish and not something I would have enjoyed as a player - I'm sure some do enjoy it though.

The true telling is that he didnt win a WS in Tampa with those teams and only one with the Cubs. My personal view is that he overuses the pen and by the end of the year and playoffs he has a dead pen and starters who cant go deep in games. It doesnt surprise me that he is the most vocal about the new rule because now he cant use his pen as constantly.

[Moan4Yoan]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

True if he actually costs them games as opposed to gaining them a couple. Keep track of every game and the moves he makes. Dont just focus on the ones they lose and what you disagree with. Because odds are you wont pay attention to the moves in the games they win.

In close games last season that were likely decided by Renteria’s decisions, do you think he made more moves that directly led to losses or wins?

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

This is quite a rosey picture you paint of theo - something you wouldnt so for Hahn.

1. The cubs are not operating anywhere near under the same restrictions as hahn. 

2. Theo was granted a top 3 payroll and misspent, terribly, his way to achieving that number. Theo's terrible free agent acquisitions are exactly why the cubs are in this position.

3. This is not the first time theo has failed miserably in FA setting a franchise back.

4. Hahn hasnt achieved anything yet - theo's history is much more impressive but history does not predict next year and by all accounts, the Cubs have fallen way back in the analytical and analysis pack. While the sox have grown exponentially in that world, the cubs have declined.

My point wasn't that Hahn sucks or that Theo is great but that fortunes change quickly and one thing that never changes is championships won, banners raised.   There isn't a single Cubs fan in the world that would return the ring in exchange for a 90+ win projection 2020 and 2021.  You get the ring then you figure the rest of it out.  And things change internally after you reach the mountain top it's a lot harder to keep all the egos in check, which makes team building much harder.  The White Sox experienced this with Ozzie going rogue after 2005.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

In close games last season that were likely decided by Renteria’s decisions, do you think he made more moves that directly led to losses or wins?

I think you put far too much value and important into a pinch hitter/bullpen usage.

Even if you make the "wrong" decision it's only slightly less beneficial than the correct one. Based on that statistical element of it, the bad move works out better than the good one a large % of the time. 

I know people love to blame coaches a lot, and in other sports it means a little more, but at the professional baseball level a coaches game day decision making as such a negligible impact on the results of a game that you really shouldnt even care much at all.

Ned Yost agrees with me.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

My point wasn't that Hahn sucks or that Theo is great but that fortunes change quickly and one thing that never changes is championships won, banners raised.   There isn't a single Cubs fan in the world that would return the ring in exchange for a 90+ win projection 2020 and 2021.  You get the ring then you figure the rest of it out.  And things change internally after you reach the mountain top it's a lot harder to keep all the egos in check, which makes team building much harder.  The White Sox experienced this with Ozzie going rogue after 2005.

 

Gotcha, this makes more sense.

I always thought theo was incredibly overrated after the last CBA change. He doesnt have an edge anywhere anymore. His offensive drafting has diminished without the ability to give huge money in late rounds... and he has never been capable of drafting and developing pitching going on 20+ years.

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

In close games last season that were likely decided by Renteria’s decisions, do you think he made more moves that directly led to losses or wins?

I dont know. I really didnt pay attention to all of them. I know the rhetoric that posters on this site go by. But as I said earlier managers in general dont mean that much for game decisions as sometimes the moves work and so times they dont depending on how the player performs. 

I think the new rule for relievers will actually increase the strategy for managers. They can no longer rely on just numbers for a single hitter. They now will need to decide if their reliever can face the next couple hitters in the lineup or if it's better to leave the current one in.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I dont know. I really didnt pay attention to all of them. I know the rhetoric that posters on this site go by. But as I said earlier managers in general dont mean that much for game decisions as sometimes the moves work and so times they dont depending on how the player performs. 

I think the new rule for relievers will actually increase the strategy for managers. They can no longer rely on just numbers for a single hitter. They now will need to decide if their reliever can face the next couple hitters in the lineup or if it's better to leave the current one in.

I'll probably cite this 100 more times, but Gabe Kapler really explained this best.

He spent his entire Philly tenure always making the statistically correct decision -disregarding the human aspect of the game.

As Gabe said, the one thing I learned is that everytime I bring in someone new, i am replacing someone and telling them they're not good enough. This has an effect on a player that can be more harmful than the slight benefit of replacing him. Kapler is a former player who forgot about this because he became infatuated with the raw numbers. There is more that should be factored in than raw stats.

[bighurt574]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2020 at 7:46 PM, caulfield12 said:

This is the "curse" for GM's like Dombrowski and Epstein when they operate in "blank check" organizations.

They both have a better sense for amateur/young talent than playing the top of the free agent market.   It was their undoing in all four places (the exception would be DD earlier in his career with Montreal and the Marlins.)

Of course, on the other hand, you have the more "cost efficient" spending approach of the Dodgers....which has led to seven consecutive playoff appearances but no World Series titles.

 

Ultimately, giving up Torres, Cease, Jimenez and some of the other prized youngsters like Candelario and Paredes.   Simultaneously, you had a failure from Schwarber, Almora, Russell, Soler, Happ, etc., to fill in as that next generation of homegrown stars to adequately supplement the core.

 

In addition to giving out a few bad contracts, Theo bet on the wrong youngsters, it seems -- trading away Torres and Eloy while keeping Russell, Happ, Schwarber, etc.  

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'll probably cite this 100 more times, but Gabe Kapler really explained this best.

He spent his entire Philly tenure always making the statistically correct decision -disregarding the human aspect of the game.

As Gabe said, the one thing I learned is that everytime I bring in someone new, i am replacing someone and telling them they're not good enough. This has an effect on a player that can be more harmful than the slight benefit of replacing him. Kapler is a former player who forgot about this because he became infatuated with the raw numbers. There is more that should be factored in than raw stats.

No doubt. However, there are other reasons as well. Maybe a player tweaked a hamstring. Not bad enough to go on the injured list but enough that he wont play for a day or two. They dont want to go off the other team so they dont make it public. 

There are many reasons why they make moves deeper than the numbers that fans wont understand.

[Tnetennba]

30 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Gotcha, this makes more sense.

I always thought theo was incredibly overrated after the last CBA change. He doesnt have an edge anywhere anymore. His offensive drafting has diminished without the ability to give huge money in late rounds... and he has never been capable of drafting and developing pitching going on 20+ years.

Throwing gobs of money at the draft and international really was his edge, and with caps on both he hasn't done much.  It would be an interesting hypothetical to see what he would do rebuilding a 3rd franchise from scratch under the current CBA.

[caulfield12]

Without the ability to bring in both Rizzo and Lester...the Cubs couldn’t or wouldn’t have won.
 

So that advantage would be gone the third time around.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Nonsense. When you have a player like Bryant you should not be outspent to retain him.

Baloney!