Hahn is getting all the praise, Theo no longer "Sainted"

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

We were successful in pushing LaRussa, Leyland and Francona out of the organization.

Three for the Hall...not in Sox uniforms.

Four, counting Dave Dombrowski as an exec.

Leyland was the guy I wish we had in the organization for 30 years.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Juschill said:

Who said it wasn’t an intelligent hire?  I said it didn’t work out well for the Sox.   It’s one of the few intelligent hires in their history.  And they kept the guy that fired him around the organization for the next 30+ years.

 

LaRussa was/is a moron. He's actually my number one example of how coaching means nothing and that coaches receive praise for their players accomplishments when they shouldn't. Larussa's career was made on the back of steroid users; everywhere he went, roids seemed to follow him. Weird how that works. Tony spent his career thinking he was smarter than everyone else, and amazingly enough when really smart people actually started analyzing managerial strategy and becoming involved in the game, Tony certainly wasn't leading the pack. When Tony went into an actual decision making position for an organization, it didn't go so well.

[FloydBannister1983]

14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I know exactly what he does in the clubhouse. He has a unified group that rallies behind him and plays their asses off. 

A latin Terry Bevington might be dumber than saying he's not a serious baseball man. Bevington was handed a job he didnt earn or deserve. Renteria worked his way up and earned his shot. Bevington signaled for bullpen arms that weren't warming up. He was one of the dumbest coaches in any sport.

You can dislike renteria all you want, but its irrational and you are putting far too much on a baseball manager whose impact is negligible at best.

A baseball player has never said, I would of made it but my manager was trash.

Bevington was a manager in the Milwaukee system for seven years and then a White Sox coach for six years before becoming manager.  Sounds like Renteria.  Working his way through the system and being handed a job he’s not qualified for.

 

[caulfield12]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Man, this type of commentary is just garbage. Semien worked his ass off and was given instruction by an instructor that he took too. He was the one who put in the work and improved his game. He was never "going to Japan." His defense has seen an uptick by one metric the past two years (he graded behind Timmy in the defensive runs metrics released yesterday). The main driving force behind his WAR was his bat last year. He had graded out as a below average SS defensively and became a + one defensively. To insinuate that he wouldn't have improved sans Washington goes against the work ethic he has displayed. Washington is a very good educator of infield fundamentals, but he isn't the one who defined Semien's career or turnaround - Marcus is the one who did that.

Hindsight revisionism.

Balta and a few others were the only ones making this argument at the time of the trade.  The majority believed he would never be a regular at the big league level, certainly not at SS.  Utility player only.

If that’s not on the manager/coaching staff, who should we blame?  

His agent?  Buddy Bell?  Reinsdorf?  The hitting coaches?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

We were successful in pushing LaRussa, Leyland and Francona out of the organization.

Three for the Hall...not in Sox uniforms.

Four, counting Dave Dombrowski as an exec.

The White Sox didn't "push" Leyland out. 

The White Sox didn't push Francona out.

The White Sox did push Larussa out.

Dombrowski is another complete hack who has no idea how to maintain sustained success.

[Moan4Yoan]

9 minutes ago, Juschill said:

Who said it wasn’t an intelligent hire?  I said it didn’t work out well for the Sox.   It’s one of the few intelligent hires in their history.  And they kept the guy that fired him around the organization for the next 30+ years.

 

Reinsdorf essentially chose Hawk the GM over LaRussa the manager.  Hawk replaced Roland Hemond as GM and fired assistant GM Dave Dombrowski and manager LaRussa.  Hawk then proceeded to last a year as GM.

These moves, along with Terry Bevington, Robin Ventura, and now Ricky Renteria...

Why do people give the Sox the benefit of the doubt when it comes to team management after this sort of history?  Reinsdorf has been in charge the entire time.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[FloydBannister1983]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

LaRussa was/is a moron. He's actually my number one example of how coaching means nothing and that coaches receive praise for their players accomplishments when they shouldn't. Larussa's career was made on the back of steroid users; everywhere he went, roids seemed to follow him. Weird how that works. Tony spent his career thinking he was smarter than everyone else, and amazingly enough when really smart people actually started analyzing managerial strategy and becoming involved in the game, Tony certainly wasn't leading the pack. When Tony went into an actual decision making position for an organization, it didn't go so well.

This may be the dumbest post in the history of this website.  Congratulations you’ve done it.  He’s one of the few managers in the Hall of Fame and one of only two to win World Series in both leagues. 
 

What a moron.  I’m sure people in Oakland and St. Louis hates his tenures.

 

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

LaRussa was/is a moron. He's actually my number one example of how coaching means nothing and that coaches receive praise for their players accomplishments when they shouldn't. Larussa's career was made on the back of steroid users; everywhere he went, roids seemed to follow him. Weird how that works. Tony spent his career thinking he was smarter than everyone else, and amazingly enough when really smart people actually started analyzing managerial strategy and becoming involved in the game, Tony certainly wasn't leading the pack. When Tony went into an actual decision making position for an organization, it didn't go so well.

Then we can disqualify Epstein and Francona due to Manny and David Ortiz?

And it’s not like the majority of Cardinals players were on them, unless you have proof on Pujols that we don’t know about.

Astros and Red Sox were cheating...so who can we actually give credit to?

Anyone?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Hindsight revisionism.

Balta and a few others were the only ones making this argument at the time of the trade.  The majority believed he would never be a regular at the big league level, certainly not at SS.  Utility player only.

If that’s not on the manager/coaching staff, who should we blame?  

His agent?  Buddy Bell?  Reinsdorf?  The hitting coaches?

I was a big fan of Semien, but obviously didn't post here. He was a raw player who made great strides in the minor leagues - being, arguably, the best player at AA (I believe he won AA POY) and he was a terrific athlete. He was actually a lot like Timmy in the sense that he had a lot of tools, but he didn't have good fundamentals.

How can you blame the White Sox for Marcus Semien? How big of a joke are these comments? Marcus Semien was a 6th round draft pick, who the Sox developed and got to the big leagues in TWO years. He was a big leaguer by 22 years old, and you think the majority of people didn't think he could be an MLB regular? After being the AA POY and reaching the big leagues in less than 300 MiLB games played? 

[Moan4Yoan]

8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

LaRussa was/is a moron. He's actually my number one example of how coaching means nothing and that coaches receive praise for their players accomplishments when they shouldn't. Larussa's career was made on the back of steroid users; everywhere he went, roids seemed to follow him. Weird how that works. Tony spent his career thinking he was smarter than everyone else, and amazingly enough when really smart people actually started analyzing managerial strategy and becoming involved in the game, Tony certainly wasn't leading the pack. When Tony went into an actual decision making position for an organization, it didn't go so well.

Defends Renteria and calls LaRussa a moron. Your credibility just got sprayed in the toilet like diarrhea after spicy Indian food.

By the way, you think only the A’s and Cardinals players were juicing in the steroid era?  C’mon...

Edited January 9, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The White Sox didn't "push" Leyland out. 

The White Sox didn't push Francona out.

The White Sox did push Larussa out.

Dombrowski is another complete hack who has no idea how to maintain sustained success.

They didn’t keep or identify talent properly.

It’s the same way we can “produce” a lot of FWAR on the left side of the infield (technically), but Tatis, Semien and Escobar all put up those numbers playing for other teams.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Juschill said:

This may be the dumbest post in the history of this website.  Congratulations you’ve done it.  He’s one of the few managers in the Hall of Fame and one of only two to win World Series in both leagues. 
 

What a moron.  I’m sure people in Oakland and St. Louis hates his tenures.

 

Sorry if I'm not going to pat Tony on the back for winning a World Series with the most juiced up roster in MLB history. I guess Tony deserves credit for McGwire and Jose shooting eachothers ass up with steroids. 

It's always funny to listen to people tell me how important a baseball manager is. 

It's not that Tony had some of the most talented rosters in MLB history - rosters that he clearly didn't build - it was all Tony... what a laughable comment. The best manager in baseball today, imo, has zero World Series wins. Does that mean he can't be the best? I certainly think Kevin Cash is about as good as we've seen at the position - marrying analytics with personalities better than we've ever seen. You go ahead and judge a manager based on the talent of their rosters, I'll judge them on things that aren't related to surrounding talent.

[mqr]

If Ricky had Scott Rolen, Albert Pujols, and Jim Edmonds his team the last three years, I think we'd be singing a different tune. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by mqr

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Defends Renteria and calls LaRussa a moron. Your credibility just got sprayed in the toilet like diarrhea after spicy Indian food.

By the way, you think only the A’s and Cardinals players were juicing in the steroid era?  C’mon...

I have said I don't think Renteria is a good strategic manager; I've also said that means very little in the grand scheme of managing. Managers manage personalities at the big league level - that's their most valuable and important trait.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I was a big fan of Semien, but obviously didn't post here. He was a raw player who made great strides in the minor leagues - being, arguably, the best player at AA (I believe he won AA POY) and he was a terrific athlete. He was actually a lot like Timmy in the sense that he had a lot of tools, but he didn't have good fundamentals.

How can you blame the White Sox for Marcus Semien? How big of a joke are these comments? Marcus Semien was a 6th round draft pick, who the Sox developed and got to the big leagues in TWO years. He was a big leaguer by 22 years old, and you think the majority of people didn't think he could be an MLB regular? After being the AA POY and reaching the big leagues in less than 300 MiLB games played? 

They rushed him to the big leagues as a developed Pac Ten player out of CAL, then gave up on him after less than half a season of regular playing time?  If his defense was such a concern at that point, then why rush him...when our minor coaching staff wasn’t exacted noted at that time for bringing “added value” on the defensive side of things?

That sounds like the story of every single Sox position prospect since Crede and Rowand, btw.

How many position changes were Viciedo and Beckham subjected to?

It’s the responsibility of every team that has a potential SS on their hands to play him there until he absolutely forces you to change him to another position. 

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, Juschill said:

This may be the dumbest post in the history of this website.  Congratulations you’ve done it.  He’s one of the few managers in the Hall of Fame and one of only two to win World Series in both leagues. 
 

What a moron.  I’m sure people in Oakland and St. Louis hates his tenures.

 

Also, I'll put my baseball acumen up against yours any day you'd like pal. I don't run around calling you a moron for having a differing opinion. I speak from a place of actual knowledge - given that I played the game at a high level and no player walks around blaming their manager for anything other than playing time. I also understand the need for analytic implementation - as I am a big believer in it, as is clear by my posts and analysis here - but the incorrect assumption that every poster makes is that all players want the data... they want the information. That's simply not true. 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

28 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Wait, so larussa wasnt an intelligent hire because he achieved more elsewhere? You're all over the place.

I remember LaRussa sucked as a manager his first couple of years with the Sox.  Basically he learned on the job and became a better manager.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

They rushed him to the big leagues as a developed Pac Ten player out of CAL, then gave up on him after less than half a season of regular playing time?  If his defense was such a concern at that point, then why rush him...when our minor coaching staff wasn’t exacted noted at that time for bringing “added value” on the defensive side of things?

That sounds like the story of every single Sox position prospect since Crede and Rowand, btw.

How many position changes were Viciedo and Beckham subjected to?

It’s the responsibility of every team that has a potential SS on their hands to play him there until he absolutely forces you to change him to another position. 

 

It's wrong to move guys around and try them at different positions to open up flexibility? Weird... because most teams have tried this today after realizing the value in it. 

Viciedo wasn't a bad defender because he moved positions - he was a bad defender because he had poor reactions on the infield, couldn't throw, and had terrible breaks in the outfield. 

The White Sox traded Semein; get over it. The assumptions that the Sox wouldn't get anything out of Semien like the A's got is comical - given that the Sox were already the team to develop a 6th round pick into a MLB player in 2 years.

[caulfield12]

Somehow if he won all those titles and divisions for the White Sox we’d be singing a slightly different tune.

He’s not my favorite manager, but you have to at least respect his lifetime of accomplishments.

 

And as much as he and Dave Stewart were vilified in AZ, that franchise didn’t take seven or eight years to get back to competitiveness despite being in the same division as the Dodgers.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, South Side Fireworks Man said:

I remember LaRussa sucked as a manager his first couple of years with the Sox.  Basically he learned on the job and became a better manager.

Or... wait for it... he got better players when he went to other teams so he looked better because his teams won more games.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

Somehow if he won all those titles and divisions for the White Sox we’d be singing a slightly different tune.

He’s not my favorite manager, but you have to at least respect his lifetime of accomplishments.

 

And as much as he and Dave Stewart were vilified in AZ, that franchise didn’t take seven or eight years to get back to competitiveness despite being in the same division as the Dodgers.

Wrong. Some people are actually capable of analyzing something without looking at W/L's for a manager. As has been noted 1000 times, this argument implies that Ned Yost is a better manager than Kevin Cash. Let that sink in for a minute.

And are you really defending Larussa and Stewarts tenure in Arizona? My lord.

[caulfield12]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It's wrong to move guys around and try them at different positions to open up flexibility? Weird... because most teams have tried this today after realizing the value in it. 

Viciedo wasn't a bad defender because he moved positions - he was a bad defender because he had poor reactions on the infield, couldn't throw, and had terrible breaks in the outfield. 

The White Sox traded Semein; get over it. The assumptions that the Sox wouldn't get anything out of Semien like the A's got is comical - given that the Sox were already the team to develop a 6th round pick into a MLB player in 2 years.

But that’s the point...you’re giving them credit for rushing him up in two years, but he wasn’t ready.

Same thing with Beckham, and Viciedo as well.

We did that because it was easier than paying real money in free agency...and for the same reasons we drafted Sale and Burdi, although proximity to the big leagues worked out in the Sale case.  
 

Of course, that’s yet another potential HoF talent who won’t go in wearing a White Sox cap.  

[South Side Fireworks Man]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Or... wait for it... he got better players when he went to other teams so he looked better because his teams won more games.

Could be.  I just remember I didn't care for him at all when he was managing the Sox.

[FloydBannister1983]

16 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Defends Renteria and calls LaRussa a moron. Your credibility just got sprayed in the toilet like diarrhea after spicy Indian food.

By the way, you think only the A’s and Cardinals players were juicing in the steroid era?  C’mon...

I thought the same thing.  Renteria is a “serious baseball man” and LaRussa is a moron.

 

That says all you need to know.

 

[FloydBannister1983]

18 minutes ago, mqr said:

If Ricky had Scott Rolen, Albert Pujols, and Jim Edmonds his team the last three years, I think we'd be singing a different tune. 

I don’t think that team would hire Renteria.  Nobody was beating down his door when he was sitting next to Ventura.

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Juschill