Hahn is getting all the praise, Theo no longer "Sainted"

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, TaylorStSox said:

How in the hell would you ever go about regulating the motivations of business owners? Also, being a fan is 100% voluntary. Your investment in sports is of your own doing. Owners owe you nothing. 

That's the commissioner's job. 

I'm not going to go into this any further, as we've had this discussion in the job thread before. I believe that all businesses are a public trust. I believe that it's fine to make a profit as long as they're behaving in a socially responsible manner. (no polluting, paying employees a living wage, giving necessary benefits, retirement security, putting public and consumer safety over profit margin) 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[YoYoIsMyHero]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

That's the commissioner's job. 

The commissioner works for the owners.

[Jack Parkman]

11 minutes ago, YoYoIsMyHero said:

The commissioner works for the owners.

He shouldn't. He should work in the best interest of baseball, meaning balancing what's best for owners, players and fans. The commissioner's job should be to be as the worldwide ambassador for baseball. 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[mqr]

27 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Just my opinion, but....Sports franchises are a hobby for billionaires and not businesses in and of themselves. Convincing me otherwise is an insult to my intelligence. Any owner that treats their franchise as a business rather than a hobby should be forced to sell. They have a responsibility to the fans to win at all costs. Only owners with the mentality of a George Steinbrenner or Mark Cuban should be allowed to own teams. If an owner isn't ok giving out the contract that Gerrit Cole got this winter, then he should not be allowed to own a team. 

I mean, I wish any of this were true

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, mqr said:

I mean, I wish any of this were true

That's what the intention always has been. The owners as a group have corrupted the system and the fans have bought the con. 

Buying a sports team is no different than owning a racehorse. Very few racehorses make money for their owners. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[TaylorStSox]

Uhhh... 

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

That's what the intention always has been. The owners as a group have corrupted the system and the fans have bought the con. 

I hate tell you this but professional sports leagues were basically founded by bookies to make money off the fans. There has never been an altruism aspects of professional sports.

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, ptatc said:

I hate tell you this but professional sports leagues were basically founded by bookies to make money off the fans. There has never been an altruism aspects of professional sports.

I get where you're coming from. Originally that's what it was. There was a period of time in the middle part of the 20th century where it was a hobby for rich people, but that ended when players won their rights in labor court. After that, it went down the path that nearly every business in America has gone down: Squeezing every last dollar out of their business with no regard for the human costs. 

[mqr]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

I get where you're coming from. Originally that's what it was. There was a period of time in the middle part of the 20th century where it was a hobby for rich people, but that ended when players won their rights in labor court. After that, it went down the path that nearly every business in America has gone down: Squeezing every last dollar out of their business with no regard for the human costs. 

The ideas that it was just a hobby and that players needed to earn workers rights are incongruous

Edited January 9, 2020 by mqr

[ptatc]

8 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I get where you're coming from. Originally that's what it was. There was a period of time in the middle part of the 20th century where it was a hobby for rich people, but that ended when players won their rights in labor court. After that, it went down the path that nearly every business in America has gone down: Squeezing every last dollar out of their business with no regard for the human costs. 

This is getting off topic but the working conditions, rights of workers and businesses squeezing every last penny was much worse in the early to mid 20th century than it is now.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

52 minutes ago, TaylorStSox said:

How in the hell would you ever go about regulating the motivations of business owners? Also, being a fan is 100% voluntary. Your investment in sports is of your own doing. Owners owe you nothing. 

First, let me say I agree with your premise. Owners aren't going to stop treating this like a business - in many cases, it's the largest investment they've ever made and asking them to treat it as a non-money making entity goes against everything that got them where they are.... but, I do find it incredibly ironic that while they run the PnL sector like your standard business, they do throw out a lot of other wise business decisions in the name of fan pressures - such as stability. Great companies have great stability at the top level; just because you have the 5th best CEO in the world doesn't mean you should fire him to try and find the 4th best, in fact you should never take that risk. In sports though? You could have a top 10 coach or GM and you fire him in hopes of getting the best. It's an irrational way of doing business, as stability is much more correlated to success than constant and endless turnover is.

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No. I'm not at all. It's the exact same thing Dave did with the 97 Marlins and the exact same thing he did with the red sox. 

If he built a team for sustained success in miami (young and controllable) please tell me how they won 54 games the year after they won a world series. Everywhere dave leaves turns to complete shit.

Now you're blaming jerry for Kenny williams thought process? Theres nothing about Kenny that signified he wanted to focus on development and not veterans.

Because Huizenga ordered that team to be torn apart due to personal financial issues...

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

First, let me say I agree with your premise. Owners aren't going to stop treating this like a business - in many cases, it's the largest investment they've ever made and asking them to treat it as a non-money making entity goes against everything that got them where they are.... but, I do find it incredibly ironic that while they run the PnL sector like your standard business, they do throw out a lot of other wise business decisions in the name of fan pressures - such as stability. Great companies have great stability at the top level; just because you have the 5th best CEO in the world doesn't mean you should fire him to try and find the 4th best, in fact you should never take that risk. In sports though? You could have a top 10 coach or GM and you fire him in hopes of getting the best. It's an irrational way of doing business, as stability is much more correlated to success than constant and endless turnover is.

This is absolutely true. Sports while a business is a business world all its own.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You think the Marlins fall was a standard drop off after a WS title? What? They had the worst year in baseball history following a WS. 

One time (the red sox) he was brought in to "go win a WS." 

You cant give the guy credit for the Red Sox World Series (as putting them over the edge with someone elses players) and the 2003 Marlins world series. Those things are polar opposites.

Huizenga ordered that team to be torn down since it was too expensive for him to maintain in that market...even though he’s the one who okayed all the moves to put together a World Series winner in the first place. 
 

Then he went through multiple owners to get to the second title, building through the draft and Latin America, largely.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

23 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This is getting off topic but the working conditions, rights of workers and businesses squeezing every last penny was much worse in the early to mid 20th century than it is now.

What? This is not true or accurate. 

Do not confuse wealth distribution - which was much better in the 60's and 70's - to safe working conditions. Workers have more rights pertaining to discrimination and others; they work in safer environments, and they have more power to hold their bosses accountable for inappropriate and wrong actions... but the distribution of wealth is significantly worse since the implementation of fake "trickle down economics" in the late 70's early 80's.

[caulfield12]

Fake trickle down economics is still not “fake” after over 40 years and multiple trials at the Federal, state and local levels, at least not to roughly 47% of American voters.

But back to the original discussion, lol.

[ptatc]

8 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What? This is not true or accurate. 

Do not confuse wealth distribution - which was much better in the 60's and 70's - to safe working conditions. Workers have more rights pertaining to discrimination and others; they work in safer environments, and they have more power to hold their bosses accountable for inappropriate and wrong actions... but the distribution of wealth is significantly worse since the implementation of fake "trickle down economics" in the late 70's early 80's.

I said early to mid 20th century industrial revolution era around the time professional baseball started. Not mid to late 20th century.

The 60, 70, 80s are not early to mid 20th century.

Edited January 9, 2020 by ptatc

[Jerksticks]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What? This is not true or accurate. 

Do not confuse wealth distribution - which was much better in the 60's and 70's - to safe working conditions. Workers have more rights pertaining to discrimination and others; they work in safer environments, and they have more power to hold their bosses accountable for inappropriate and wrong actions... but the distribution of wealth is significantly worse since the implementation of fake "trickle down economics" in the late 70's early 80's.

Eh.  The population has also increased by anywhere from 125-150 Million people since then, all manufacturing has went overseas, and technology has all but wiped out the need for 10s of millions of middle management positions.  But yea, let’s just take the easy answer and dump it on trickle-down economics.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, caulfield12 said:

Fake trickle down economics is still not “fake” after over 40 years and multiple trials at the Federal, state and local levels, at least not to roughly 47% of American voters.

But back to the original discussion, lol.

Caufield, I'm going to go ahead and assume (I could be wrong) that I have a much stronger grasp on the economic impact of trickle down economics on wealth distribution than you do here.

If you want to have a serious discussion on this, you can PM me as I won't pollute this forum further with this discussion. I have no idea how you can look at stagnated middle class and lower class wages going on 4 DECADES, with a near 1000% increase to the top bracket, and think trickle down economics is beneficial to anyone in a non-executive position.

The number one driver of middle class wage escalation is what Caufield? Minimum wage. The war the politicians have created between middle class and poor people have stunted the growth of both entities. As minimum wage escalates (it was once at a level that was equal to a livable wage, CRAZY), so do middle class salaries. Since our federal minimum wage has greatly declined in relation to the cost of living, the middle class has stagnated as well. As states like Washington raise their minimum wage to $15/hr, the middle class has in turn seen a 1 year escalation on average income greater than any state that has not made the same change. While you get angry at someone at McDonalds making $15/hr, you fail to understand the immense benefit that has on the middle class. I wrote a thesis on this exact topic. The falsification and war on the middle class waged by trickle down bullshitters.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I said early to mid 20th century industrial revolution era around the time professional baseball started. Not mid to late 20th century.

The 60, 70, 80s are not early to mid 20th century.

Ahh, gotcha. 100% correct - my apologies.

[Jack Parkman]

52 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This is getting off topic but the working conditions, rights of workers and businesses squeezing every last penny was much worse in the early to mid 20th century than it is now.

Arguable in the early 20th century, LMAO between the FDR and Reagan admins. 

I won't argue that there were fewer worker protections in the early 20th century. There were a few things that were much better from 1940-70 and(most notably job and retirement security-and I'd argue that that is more important to most people than the things that were gained in the late part of the 20th century) and a lot of things that were worse. 

We're crossing into politics now and we should STFU. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Jerksticks said:

Eh.  The population has also increased by anywhere from 125-150 Million people since then, all manufacturing has went overseas, and technology has all but wiped out the need for 10s of millions of middle management positions.  But yea, let’s just take the easy answer and dump it on trickle-down economics.  

None of this matters, the economy has simply shifted from a manufacturing economy to a technological and service economy. The premise and margins in the service world are in line with the margins and premises within the manufacturing world. The only thing that has changed is the government has convinced many that somehow pressing a button at a factory was substantially more difficult than delivering food to a human being or driving them around. If anything, the positive benefits of technology should have streamlined wage escalation even moreso due to the increase and benefit to a companies margins.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Caufield, I'm going to go ahead and assume (I could be wrong) that I have a much stronger grasp on the economic impact of trickle down economics on wealth distribution than you do here.

If you want to have a serious discussion on this, you can PM me as I won't pollute this forum further with this discussion. I have no idea how you can look at stagnated middle class and lower class wages going on 4 DECADES, with a near 1000% increase to the top bracket, and think trickle down economics is beneficial to anyone in a non-executive position.

The number one driver of middle class wage escalation is what Caufield? Minimum wage. The war the politicians have created between middle class and poor people have stunted the growth of both entities. As minimum wage escalates (it was once at a level that was equal to a livable wage, CRAZY), so do middle class salaries. Since our federal minimum wage has greatly declined in relation to the cost of living, the middle class has stagnated as well. As states like Washington raise their minimum wage to $15/hr, the middle class has in turn seen a 1 year escalation on average income greater than any state that has not made the same change. While you get angry at someone at McDonalds making $15/hr, you fail to understand the immense benefit that has on the middle class. I wrote a thesis on this exact topic. The falsification and war on the middle class waged by trickle down bullshitters.

Your grasp was so excellent that you didn’t understand my sarcasm or take a clue from the avatar, although he’s hardly representative of the thinking of the majority of kids under age 30 today, who are describing themselves as socialists.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Also, population growth is a good thing - not bad - especially when pertaining to manufacturing and services. It's not as if the population has grown exponentially greater than the profitability of a company. In fact, it's had the opposite effect.

[chitown87]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Caufield, I'm going to go ahead and assume (I could be wrong) that I have a much stronger grasp on the economic impact of trickle down economics on wealth distribution than you do here.

If you want to have a serious discussion on this, you can PM me as I won't pollute this forum further with this discussion. I have no idea how you can look at stagnated middle class and lower class wages going on 4 DECADES, with a near 1000% increase to the top bracket, and think trickle down economics is beneficial to anyone in a non-executive position.

The number one driver of middle class wage escalation is what Caufield? Minimum wage. The war the politicians have created between middle class and poor people have stunted the growth of both entities. As minimum wage escalates (it was once at a level that was equal to a livable wage, CRAZY), so do middle class salaries. Since our federal minimum wage has greatly declined in relation to the cost of living, the middle class has stagnated as well. As states like Washington raise their minimum wage to $15/hr, the middle class has in turn seen a 1 year escalation on average income greater than any state that has not made the same change. While you get angry at someone at McDonalds making $15/hr, you fail to understand the immense benefit that has on the middle class. I wrote a thesis on this exact topic. The falsification and war on the middle class waged by trickle down bullshitters.

Not even close to being accurate.