CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 On 1/11/2020 at 8:54 PM, aeichhor said: Brantley at 2. I wanted him for RF when he was a FA and I got all kind of blow back here. That's to be expected though. People were leery of his past injuries and age and how he'd fit in the competitive timeline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy U Posted January 18, 2020 Share Posted January 18, 2020 1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Brantley at 2. I wanted him for RF when he was a FA and I got all kind of blow back here. That's to be expected though. People were leery of his past injuries and age and how he'd fit in the competitive timeline. Also, his arm is barely playable in left. Your second baseman would have to have a cannon if you were playing Brantley out there. Helluva hitter, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted January 19, 2020 Author Share Posted January 19, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, aeichhor said: How about Yonder Alonso making that list eh?! Kidding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, aeichhor said: Shredder needs an over haul or a tune up. Happy to see Encarnacion make it but come on now. He's a DH. I understand the reluctance to count traditional stats like RBI's but they really can't fit the AL RBI leader on this list ? It's one thing to say RBI's are based on opportunities but on a bad team do we really think Abreu had so many more opportunities for RBI's or is it more a product that he hit damn good in those opportunities. It's starting to look like walks mean more than RBI's. I love walks as much as the next guy but I'd rather have a guy drive in runs than leave it up to the next guy. Too many stats now are walk /OBP driven and since the Shredder is most likely a Brian Kenny Sabermetric type unbiased calculation I doubt RBI's get the love that walks driven stats do. The name of the game is still getting more runs across the plate than your opponent. Wouldn't be surprised if the batting champ doesn't make the top 10 SS either or slides in at 9 or 10. Edited January 19, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 9 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Shredder needs an over haul or a tune up. Happy to see Encarnacion make it but come on now. He's a DH. I understand the reluctance to count traditional stats like RBI's but they really can't fit the AL RBI leader on this list ? It's one thing to say RBI's are based on opportunities but on a bad team do we really think Abreu had so many more opportunities for RBI's or is it more a product that he hit damn good in those opportunities. It's starting to look like walks mean more than RBI's. I love walks as much as the next guy but I'd rather have a guy drive in runs than leave it up to the next guy. Too many stats now are walk /OBP driven and since the Shredder is most likely a Brian Kenny Sabermetric type unbiased calculation I doubt RBI's get the love that walks driven stats do. The name of the game is still getting more runs across the plate than your opponent. Wouldn't be surprised if the batting champ doesn't make the top 10 SS either or slides in at 9 or 10. An analytics based projection system is not going to care about RBIs (nor should they) so Abreu was never likely to make this list when he’s a mediocre OBP guy with poor fielding metrics. Now, I would expect their expert panel rankings to include him because of the RBIs, power, and general respect in the clubhouse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said: An analytics based projection system is not going to care about RBIs (nor should they) so Abreu was never likely to make this list when he’s a mediocre OBP guy with poor fielding metrics. Now, I would expect their expert panel rankings to include him because of the RBIs, power, and general respect in the clubhouse. Well it is flawed when a DH playing less than 50 games at 1st base is included in the top 1st basemen . That's why I said the Shredder needs a tuneup. Certain things need to count more like actually playing at least 100 games at the position. I don't know how the Shredder was program but my concerns about walks and their relationship to other stats make me think that walks are counted over and over in the sabermetric stats considered most important. Now I'm no sabermertrics expert by far. But I'm trying to understand them and I constantly have questions like with walks. OBP obviously counts walks, and OBP + Slg =OPS, right ? Then OPS+ is OPS with ballparks figured in, right ? Plus both wRC and wRC+ include walks also in the offensive stats don't they ? So a weak hitter ( batting avg. ,not a lot of power but who gets a lot of walks )is given a big boost in a lot of sabermetric stats. While a good hitter gets punished if he doesn't get that many walks. I'm just wondering for arguments sake how would a batter be if he got 600 PA's never got a hit but got 250 walks or 100 walks plus 125 singles and played gold glove type defense what might his WAR be , and other stats I mentioned . I'm thinking there has to be way to count how you hit with runners in scoring position along with some other stats that give batting average and RBI's more importance . You could include RBI opportunities some how like some kind of clutch factor. A hit with men on base should always count as better than a walk. Edited January 19, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted January 19, 2020 Share Posted January 19, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 12:15 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Brantley at 2. I wanted him for RF when he was a FA and I got all kind of blow back here. That's to be expected though. People were leery of his past injuries and age and how he'd fit in the competitive timeline. he wanted to play for a WS contender from what i remember. We didnt have a chance at him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whisox05 Posted February 2, 2020 Author Share Posted February 2, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 4 hours ago, aeichhor said: Just as I suspected because of Anderson's lack of walks and errors he didn't make the top 10. Stacked position for sure though. I know many think bWAR is a joke but I actually prefer it over fWAR. This is case once again like with ABreu where the lack of walks and fielding give the impression that Anderson is not a top 10 SS. There is way too much distance between sabermetric stats and traditional stats now. When a batting and RBI champ can't qualify as being Top 10 in the majors something is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: Just as I suspected because of Anderson's lack of walks and errors he didn't make the top 10. Stacked position for sure though. I know many think bWAR is a joke but I actually prefer it over fWAR. This is case once again like with ABreu where the lack of walks and fielding give the impression that Anderson is not a top 10 SS. There is way too much distance between sabermetric stats and traditional stats now. When a batting and RBI champ can't qualify as being Top 10 in the majors something is wrong. Abreu 2019: wRC+ - 11th fWAR - 14th wOBA - 15th OPS - 12th I'm not sure what about those stats scream "Top 10 1st baseman". That's not even factoring in his bottom tier defense. Using RBIs to bump him up to top 10 is a joke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, ron883 said: Abreu 2019: wRC+ - 11th fWAR - 14th wOBA - 15th OPS - 12th I'm not sure what about those stats scream "Top 10 1st baseman". That's not even factoring in his bottom tier defense. Using RBIs to bump him up to top 10 is a joke. And like my earlier arguments or questions all those stats you sited place extreme importance on walks. Where is the importance placed on driving in runs or batting average with runners in scoring position ? Still have to score more runs than the opponent. I know sabermetric stats are like Gods to some of you but use common sense too. RBI's mean more than they are given credit for and walks are given too much credit because they are used over and over again in every major offensive statistical category, propping up weaker hitters while a lack of walks hurt a good hitter thus punishing him with lower numbers across some of the categories who mentioned. 2nd and 3rd 2 outs , whats better a walk or a single ? Do they count equally in fWAR and OPS ? Which would you rather have in that situation ? Also without a list I have no idea who you are saying was ahead of Abreu. Encarnacion made the list of 1st basemen but he played less than 50 games at the position. At least play the majority of your games at 1st in order to beat out guys who play the position more frequently. Just throwing those stats at me without context means nothing. YOU DON'T EVEN TELL ME IF THOSE ARE OTHER 1ST BASEMAN YOU ARE COMPARING HIM TO AND WHO IS AHEAD OF HIM ON THE LIST, SO HOW CAN I ARGUE AGAINST ANYONE ELSE YOU SAY IS AHEAD OF HIM ? (I am not yelling at you .I just have never been able to get the BOLD to work.) Common sense . Edited February 2, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Anderson is AL batting champ and has unbelievable defensive range. No way he is not top 10. The kind of evaluators that think Jeter is a GG type SS must be doing the judging. Timmy needs to take more walks and eliminate the dumb error stuff...but I would rather have Timmy than half the guys on that list. I admit that the SS position is deep with talent however. If you squint...Timmy is a five tool guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 It’s funny how people suddenly care about batting average and RBIs. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 The only guys on that list who I think TA is better than (going forward) are DeJong and Polanco. His omission isn't that bad IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 I dont see anything wrong with the SS list, Anderson isnt far out of 10 but that position is stacked. Correa is #9 ffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 4 hours ago, flavum said: It’s funny how people suddenly care about batting average and RBIs. I’ve never stopped ? I absolutely love batting average. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackSox8 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 Doesn't the shredder take in more than last season? If TA were to have similar years this year and next to 2019 then he probably makes top 10, maybe top 5, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 5 hours ago, flavum said: It’s funny how people suddenly care about batting average and RBIs. That's because I've never seen a bad hitter lead the league in either category. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 2 hours ago, poppysox said: That's because I've never seen a bad hitter lead the league in either category. Nobody says they are bad hitters. Jose just simply isn't too 10 at his position. You can't make a sound, logical argument for ranking him top 10. Timmy, I can see an argument for him being top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, ron883 said: Nobody says they are bad hitters. Jose just simply isn't too 10 at his position. You can't make a sound, logical argument for ranking him top 10. Timmy, I can see an argument for him being top 10. My remark was made in defense of Timmy in response to flavum pretending surprise that people still care about stats like batting average and rbi's. Had nothing to do with Jose or where he might be ranked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 hour ago, ron883 said: Nobody says they are bad hitters. Jose just simply isn't too 10 at his position. You can't make a sound, logical argument for ranking him top 10. Timmy, I can see an argument for him being top 10. Agree completely. I just love batting average. Guys with high BAs are typically the most exciting players for me to watch. When PK figured it out for a bit right at the very end...that was a thing of beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 5 hours ago, TheBlackSox8 said: Doesn't the shredder take in more than last season? If TA were to have similar years this year and next to 2019 then he probably makes top 10, maybe top 5, no? Maybe but Tatis Jr had a really good half a season offensively and he's 6th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 8 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Maybe but Tatis Jr had a really good half a season offensively and he's 6th. Because he was the top-ranked prospect in baseball coming into the year, and only 20. Has he been healthy the whole year, he would have been even higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 21 hours ago, flavum said: It’s funny how people suddenly care about batting average and RBIs. Why is it funny ? Why shouldn't we ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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