MeanJoeCrede Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF said: Don't get me started. Please, please, please DON'T get him started! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 And wonderful and valid points for recovery with the amazing advancements in Sports Medicine that for everyone out there this is the number one aspect of American medicine and perhaps the greatest advancement compared to issues of things like Sepsis and Pneumonia. Did not mean to drift. As I have said I am very under the weather. As an aerospace friend recently said to me there are going to be side effects from aerosol spraying under the guise of geoengineering with no environmental impact studies Not really appropriate for a baseball site. Remember Christ Mathewson and numerous other ball players during World War I were poisoned by chemical weapons. Maybe one day we can let the leaders in politics and banking fight it out in the ring in the Ultimate Battle Royal all on Pay Per View. Can't you just see it Dick Cheney and George Soros verus The Rock and AJ Pierzinski? Where is Bob Luce when we need him most? Like I said I am really not feeling well. Until next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 I am pretty sure someone wrote a caulfield bot and this is the result. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 48 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said: I am pretty sure someone wrote a caulfield bot and this is the result. Well, except for the fact that I tend to write about THIS current century. And write in paragraph form, with an interspersed ellipsis. I’ve actually watched movies since the drive-in era and occasionally utilize fWAR in discussions. On the plus side, it would keep some of my biggest critics doubly-occupied, if you’re familiar with the plot of Silicon Valley this final season. Edited January 11, 2020 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 9:47 PM, caulfield12 said: Well, yeah, you'll never convince anyone from my father's generation that current day ballplayers are/were better than Mantle, Aaron, Mays and Clemente, or Gibson, Koufax and Drysdale....let alone Ted Williams. Hawk would say todays players are bigger, stronger & faster. In your fathers and my day there were only 16 teams and you didn't get to the major leagues without knowing which base to throw to, etc. Fewer jobs meant you better show up and do your job or you wouldn't have one. Very hard to judge players across generational lines since equipment, rules, travel, money, training facilities and the Union have changed the game dramatically. I'll tell you one thing for sure...I would love to have Koufax pitching for the Sox in 2020. I have no doubt he could still get them out today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 12 minutes ago, poppysox said: Hawk would say todays players are bigger, stronger & faster. In your fathers and my day there were only 16 teams and you didn't get to the major leagues without knowing which base to throw to, etc. Fewer jobs meant you better show up and do your job or you wouldn't have one. Very hard to judge players across generational lines since equipment, rules, travel, money, training facilities and the Union have changed the game dramatically. I'll tell you one thing for sure...I would love to have Koufax pitching for the Sox in 2020. I have no doubt he could still get them out today. And of course the Ruths and Gehrigs and Cobbs never had to face the best African American, Asian and Latino players... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 At one time some long time ago the three most relevant sports in America were baseball, boxing and horse racing with the latter two in real trouble. Thankfully due the foreign players baseball is in a renaissance. If we can unload aluminum bats at a minimum the game will improve for American kids. At it's current curve we are looking at a third of all players being foreign born and likely eventually possibly more than 40%. Now these players are top notch and I encourage a merit based system where talent wins the day. Like to see more teaching how to run the bases and correctly slide and avoiding this crazy with some exceptions of these head first slides. Hook sliding is a lost art and can attribute to factors in a successful season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 wood bats and hook slides are gonna save the game 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
runtheballdown Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 First of all sabremetrics allows people that never played the game an opportunity to get involved in the game. When the players get asked about sabremetrics they just laugh. They understand the game obviously and don’t need a bunch of numbers to help them. secondly launch angle is a joke. A four seam fastball that is up in the strike zone has never been hit for a home run ever. Launch angle doesn’t work against a high fastball that’s a strike. A guy like kris Bryant looks feeble against an upper zone fastball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 Baseball needs both short and long term relevance. For the amount of money being paid today and it is amazing people speak of saving money when a relief pitcher comes in at $6M per year if a bubble blows in the economy a man, woman or family barely making $60K are not going to be singing praises of pitchers or anybody making $20M per year. Really need a dose of reality for everyone. Remember there is no pension for Negro League Players, minor league players and how about those that work say in concessions at the ballpark when their career ends. And yes Marvin Miller had a huge impact on the sport of baseball and by extension all sports. MLB does not even allow their audience access to their personal team's home games from their computer feed because of some archaic decision despite paing for the games not being able to watch what the customer pays for. As to the comment on Koufax he pitched in an era dominated by pitchers including a higher mound. Koufax had a high leg kick which is rarely taught anymore and an over the top fastball and curve that was near impossible to pick up making him along with Pedro and Marichal the most dominating of the past more than half century. We here all this mental chatter about wasted motion...well...there are more TJ's than any time in forever and not winding up is a key factor in this new phenomenon with injuries. Had the good fortune to meet Bob Feller on two occasions and we discussed in some detail of the foolheartedness of not winding up, stretching the body out and throwing frequently and often which today is the new norm. I have asked and it repeats repeating and that is ask Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees or Russell Wilson if after throwing say 40 passes in a game should they bring in a backup quarterback to finish the game for concern of injury. Once again another in a far too long list of somebody just making up a concept and others following it because people theorize it and it becomes like a religious construct. With training techniques and advancements in exercise physiology gaining in power, strength and endurance including recovery after games should be much better at avoiding injuries and if there are some bouncing back with the PT people and trainers should be better than ever and yet there are more injuries than one can imagine. I emphasize that belief systems are getting in the way of talented players being able to once they start not merely going five or six innings in a ballgame. I fully concur that players are much better conditioned with one possible exception and that is endurance. Minus in recent years the classic 160 pounds Ichiro Suzuki who if you jut think about it he is 80 pounds less than Mike Trout and he was the epitome of the example for preparation for any and all baseball players and athletes taking examples and considering them for modeling is worth consideration. That is what so many players tried to do but where lacking in the dedication to their craft and whose name were not Ted Williams. Aluminum bats have been detrimental to the college, high school, Little League and Senior League circuits. Now lets talk about some of the most notable advancements in the art of pitching today and primary in this category is how pitchers grip the ball and use pressure all around the ball to make the ball move and/or spin. Today there are pitchers who just cannot throw a curve ball but can throw the split finger and it has made the game more interesting. As for hook slides all it takes it to watch a game where due to the technique you literally using your legs and mind win a big ballgame that puts your club over the top for in baseball much like basketball find me a club that can hit their free throws with consistency and achieving a greater chance at success goes up. Like having a player who knows how to squeeze in a crucial situation with a good bunt. Seeking knowledge and application to put one into a position to win more games doing some of the small things is always relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 Numbers in baseball used to have meaning. Ask most people around the nation who won the AL Batting Title and few would know it was Tim Anderson. If Jose did not lead the league in RBI's who would know. Yet one of the ultimate hyped elements in the game is Sabermetrics. As such most mean nothing anymore. I am not suggesting that statistics mean so little but it is turning the game into one where much of the mental gymnastics going on is actually distorting the game. But what does it matter as I am sure there are a lot out there making $10-20M per year. Baseball is a simple yet in it's own way complex game and now we have Ivy League graduates who use a computer to analyze which then why are people so upset with the Astros using technology to their advantage to steal signs. There needs to be a balance and like everything in sports cycles do exist and the pendulum moves. How many people reading this site watch entire baseball games anymore and if anyone ha kids if a game goes late how many are going to get home past midnight with school for kids the following day. Yet most who watch say an NFL game many if not most watch the entirety of the game. How can the game attract a consistent fan base and maintain interest? Question(s) worth consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 A C+/C grade for Keuchel is fair. No one here really wanted him (including myself). But for the contract he signed for, I definitely am good with the signing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 Very good point about the high fastball. Thing is until very recently this pitch which was part of the strikezone was essentially eliminated. Jim Palmer made his career throwing a rising fastball. I am glad that pitch is back in the game. We also live in an era where pitchers are 'encouraged' up and in to protect the plate and hitters more than ever can just stand on the plate and take their swings. It will be interesting to watch Keuchel who is a soft throwing good fielding pitcher how he fares. He is not Jon Lester but he may be a welcome addition to the club. Mr. Cole of the Yankees who may be as premier as it get going up, down, away and up as we have in the game and it is a thing of beauty when he is on. But in order to compensate the launch angle issue is moot particularly with two-strikes. James McCann decided last season to choke up and focus on going with the pitch as a hitter and he was vastly improved. I emphasize if Yolmer did the same beyond the GG he would be a better ball player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegionSox Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 I made the mistake of reading this thread before having any coffee. Maybe italics should be used now for weird tangents like green for sarcasm. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) I can agree with those who say sabermetrics are ruining the game, but not for the same reasons. It comes from the GM position where the bar has changed such that $/WAR is more coveted by owners than winning the damn WS. And that's a problem. Edited January 11, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 sabermetrics are there whether you choose to use them or not. Saying they are ruining the game is the height of ignorance. They are a tool to be used, if you choose to ignore them and your team gets run over by a team that uses them and benefits from their use, that's on you. If a GM uses them and is successful, I have no idea why you would think that is ruining the game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: I can agree with those who say sabermetrics are ruining the game, but not for the same reasons. It comes from the GM position where the bar has changed such that $/WAR is more coveted by owners than winning the damn WS. And that's a problem. Name me one team that covets $/WAR over winning a World Series 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Name me one team that covets $/WAR over winning a World Series They'd never say it publicly so that's a bullshit argument. If they did, they'd alienate their fanbase. Internally, I'd say every team that's not the NY Yankees. Honestly, I think the Dodgers are in that boat. It's fine if it's a tool to get to winning a WS, but it's not ok if it's the end all be all. Sabes are fine if the goal is to use them to win the damn WS. They're not ok if they're used to squeeze money out of the players and fans, and that efficiency trumps winning championships. Edited January 11, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minoso-Pierce-Allen-HOF Posted January 11, 2020 Author Share Posted January 11, 2020 Sabermetrics can serve some purpose but to let it take over the game the way it has and every player golf swinging at pitches can be embarrassing. I emphasize to examine Juan Soto who may be one of the best things that has come along in some time. If clubs do not use the minor leagues to teach how to hit with two strikes it has to make one wonder what re they doling down there. Just passing time. Soto. Study him and learn. The obsession over the data is a red blot as is the mental balancing act of this magic number of 100 pitches. But what does it matter? Everybody is making money, right? Just saw an interview with Frank Thomas and Mo Vaughn and the discussion came up on the lack of black ball players coming up. Vaughn said and I concur that the head injuries from football will push more players into the diamond and off the gridiron. Tim Anderson is the only one player of color and an American who is on the club. Noteworthy is Tim relishes the responsibility and is great with kids in the community. What Tim and his wife are doing is exceptional. Very happy Tim has a deep connection with Jackie Robinson and his contribution to the game. The very good thing about the international flare for baseball is the number of really good players is really increasing the quality of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 28 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: They'd never say it publicly so that's a bullshit argument. If they did, they'd alienate their fanbase. Internally, I'd say every team that's not the NY Yankees. Honestly, I think the Dodgers are in that boat. It's fine if it's a tool to get to winning a WS, but it's not ok if it's the end all be all. Sabes are fine if the goal is to use them to win the damn WS. They're not ok if they're used to squeeze money out of the players and fans, and that efficiency trumps winning championships. Seriously? The dodgers? They have been wildly successful with saber metrics and have arguably been one of the if not the best teams in the national league since they pivoted. This is a terrible example and the bullshit argument was yours, not mine. So when you make it, you better damn well be able to back it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 30 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: They'd never say it publicly so that's a bullshit argument. If they did, they'd alienate their fanbase. Internally, I'd say every team that's not the NY Yankees. Honestly, I think the Dodgers are in that boat. It's fine if it's a tool to get to winning a WS, but it's not ok if it's the end all be all. Sabes are fine if the goal is to use them to win the damn WS. They're not ok if they're used to squeeze money out of the players and fans, and that efficiency trumps winning championships. 1 point to Greg775 for getting others to add “sabes” to their lexicon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Seriously? The dodgers? They have been wildly successful with saber metrics and have arguably been one of the if not the best teams in the national league since they pivoted. This is a terrible example and the bullshit argument was yours, not mine. So when you make it, you better damn well be able to back it up. They're the perfect example actually. They held on to all of their prospects instead of trying to win. I'm not saying to do what the Cubs did, but a middleground approach would have won them a WS. They were a player or two short for 4 seasons in a row. Edited January 11, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 Just now, Jack Parkman said: They're the perfect example actually. They held on to all of their prospects instead of trying to win. I'm not saying to do what the Cubs did, but a middleground approach would have won them a WS. Please explain how they did not try to win 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said: Please explain how they did not try to win They refuse to trade any of their young players for immediate help. Friedman runs the team like he's still in Tampa. There has to be a middle ground. Edited January 11, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: They refuse to trade any of their young players for immediate help. Friedman runs the team like he's still in Tampa. How many games did they win last season 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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