MLB cheating scandal

[Balta1701]

Just now, Kyyle23 said:

Fiers waited until he left the team before he said anything 

Well it's a darn shame that there were no other leaders in that locker room who could oppose a cheating scheme. But anyway...

[mqr]

This is some seriously impressive white knighting

[Balta1701]

Just now, mqr said:

This is some seriously impressive white knighting

So say it. Tell me that you're ok with Dallas Keuchel and have no problems with his behavior in this case.

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Apparently only a Mike Fiers quality human being does that, but for a veteran leader and cy young award winner on a billion dollar franchise, here's some possibles. 

1. Complain to your manager.
2. Make a public statement in front of your teammates.
3. Organize several of your teammmates to support you as a leader on your roster and tell management that it stops.
4. Complain to your general manager once the manager does nothing. 
5. Go over the general manager's head to ownership. Make it so that Crane's "I knew nothing" statement yesterday no longer holds up.
6. Complain to your union representatives. 
7. Take matters into your own hands. If the wimp of a manager won't do actual damage to the screen do it yourself. 

They're the ones tainting you. Are you a leader or aren't you?

Why is Fiers a hero? He didn't try to stop it did he? He just said something well after the fact. Where is his apology? Start booing.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

Why is Fiers a hero? He didn't try to stop it did he? He just said something well after the fact. Where is his apology? Start booing.

Turns out he's the one who did put an end to it.

[bmags]

8 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Cody Decker is on the score right now and said there is at least 5 teams for sure that he knows about right now.

But doing what? What Boston did isn't as severe to me as what HOU was accused of. I'm sure more teams than houston were using the replay tv to decode signs, but houston was giving real time feedback on every pitch, and boston just when man was on second. That's a big discrepancy. 

[mqr]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So say it. Tell me that you're ok with Dallas Keuchel and have no problems with his behavior in this case.

I really don't, I'd prefer he said something, but I'm not dense enough to ignore the immense pressure to not. 

Edited January 14, 2020 by mqr

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Turns out he's the one who did put an end to it.

Did he acceot his WS ring and playoff share? Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

Edited January 14, 2020 by Dick Allen

[Kyyle23]

2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Turns out he's the one who did put an end to it.

He didn't even report it.  He just complained in an interview and it blew up.  It's not like he went to the MLB or MLBPA and filed a formal complaint

[Kyyle23]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

But doing what? What Boston did isn't as severe to me as what HOU was accused of. I'm sure more teams than houston were using the replay tv to decode signs, but houston was giving real time feedback on every pitch, and boston just when man was on second. That's a big discrepancy. 

Didn't they do the same thing except use Apple watches to talk to each other?  And at this point we really don't know the extent of what they did, when Cora is punished I'm sure more info will trickle out

[Eminor3rd]

21 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

How did Frank Thomas react to the rampant steroid abuse in baseball? We are literally praising his response to that, correctly, in an other thread right now on this page.

You're going to tell me that the players had no influence at all? The veterans? That if Keuchel had sat down with the manager and said "We can't do this", he couldn't have made something happen? That all these so-called clean players would have just cowered? That if Verlander had gotten there, seen this stuff, and  immediately said "you're not going to taint my chances at a ring", that it doesn't end right then and there? 

One thing a Frank Thomas did NOT do is immediately out his teammates, which is what this would require. 

Look, I’d love to hear that one of the players stepped up and confronted the manager about this, and I’d call that player a hero. But I think that’s way easier said than done, and we have to keep in mind that many of the players, and probably especially the pitchers, knew less about what was happening than we all do now at the end of the investigation. So not only are you challenging your boss directly, but you’re probably doing it on a hunch. 

Trying to find an analog here: Assuming you aren’t in finance, if you found out that some people in your finance department at work were likely doing something to avoid paying corporate taxes, and you weren’t in any way responsible for that department, would you do anything about it? Maybe tell your boss? Would that change if you knew your boss was in on it? I mean there’s a huge range of things you could do, from quitting to telling the IRS. But they all involve you probably looking for a new job. And maybe you would do something like that, but it’s a lot to ask of someone who has a family and maybe doesn’t understand what’s going on completely. 

Im just saying that things were likely less black and white for the players on the periphery and we have to understand and acknowledge the costs of action if we are going to expect action to be taken. 

[fathom]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So say it. Tell me that you're ok with Dallas Keuchel and have no problems with his behavior in this case.

Not at all, had a significantly bigger issue with Melky on the team.  

[Balta1701]

Just now, Eminor3rd said:

One thing a Frank Thomas did NOT do is immediately out his teammates, which is what this would require. 

Look, I’d love to hear that one of the players stepped up and confronted the manager about this, and I’d call that player a hero. But I think that’s way easier said than done, and we have to keep in mind that many of the players, and probably especially the pitchers, knew less about what was happening than we all do now at the end of the investigation. So not only are you challenging your boss directly, but you’re probably doing it on a hunch. 

Trying to find an analog here: Assuming you aren’t in finance, if you found out that some people in your finance department at work were likely doing something to avoid paying corporate taxes, and you weren’t in any way responsible for that department, would you do anything about it? Maybe tell your boss? Would that change if you knew your boss was in on it? I mean there’s a huge range of things you could do, from quitting to telling the IRS. But they all involve you probably looking for a new job. And maybe you would do something like that, but it’s a lot to ask of someone who has a family and maybe doesn’t understand what’s going on completely. 

Im just saying that things were likely less black and white for the players on the periphery and we have to understand and acknowledge the costs of action if we are going to expect action to be taken. 

Look, not only does the MLB statement say the bolded is false,  this completely strains credibility. You're in the dugout. There is a video monitor right behind the dugout that you walk past every time you go to the bathroom from the dugout. One of your teammates is standing there watching that video, which shows the catcher, and banging on a trashcan with a bat. You constantly hear banging out of the locker room when you're standing there. Other teams publicly accuse you of cheating. You think "Well this is a normal tuesday ritual"?

[Dick Allen]

Just now, fathom said:

Not at all, had a significantly bigger issue with Melky on the team.  

Melky apologized and Balta was not OK with that.

[reiks12]

10 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Apparently only a Mike Fiers quality human being does that, but for a veteran leader and cy young award winner on a billion dollar franchise, here's some possibles. 

1. Complain to your manager.
2. Make a public statement in front of your teammates.
3. Organize several of your teammmates to support you as a leader on your roster and tell management that it stops.
4. Complain to your general manager once the manager does nothing. 
5. Go over the general manager's head to ownership. Make it so that Crane's "I knew nothing" statement yesterday no longer holds up.
6. Complain to your union representatives. 
7. Take matters into your own hands. If the wimp of a manager won't do actual damage to the screen do it yourself. 

They're the ones tainting you. Are you a leader or aren't you?

Sounds like a lot of pressure to put on one guy trying to earn a big contract. Some of the above might have happened, we dont really know. There are already articles stating Crane knew everything. I can totally understand not wanting to muddy the waters if you arent involved. We don't know what went on in the clubhouse behind closed doors, but to condemn Keuchel for not taking on the hero role is a bit much. Maybe we have different expectations of players and in that case I would understand if you dont want anything to do with him. 

[mqr]

4 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Didn't they do the same thing except use Apple watches to talk to each other?  And at this point we really don't know the extent of what they did, when Cora is punished I'm sure more info will trickle out

They were using technology to pick up signs, but only relaying that info with a runner on second.

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Didn't they do the same thing except use Apple watches to talk to each other?  And at this point we really don't know the extent of what they did, when Cora is punished I'm sure more info will trickle out

Did MLB have any official rules on this topic before the Apple watch incident provoked the 2017 memo?

[Eminor3rd]

14 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Look, not only does the MLB statement say the bolded is false,  this completely strains credibility. You're in the dugout. There is a video monitor right behind the dugout that you walk past every time you go to the bathroom from the dugout. One of your teammates is standing there watching that video, which shows the catcher, and banging on a trashcan with a bat. You constantly hear banging out of the locker room when you're standing there. Other teams publicly accuse you of cheating. You think "Well this is a normal tuesday ritual"?

You’re making a ton of assumptions and generalizations about what specific people know.

From what I’ve read, all teams are always trying to steal signs, some players obsess over it. Some guys want in on it and others don’t. If you weren’t involved in setting anything up, and the coaching staff was understandably trying to be as nondescript as possible, and you never hit and so nothing needs to be explained to you, how would you know that what was happening involved obviously illegal electronic means that clearly push past the line, as opposed to all the similar but grey stuff that’s been happening around you the rest of the time? Maybe it seems fishier than normal, or maybe not because you’re trying to focus on how the get the next three guys out. 

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said:

You’re making a ton of assumptions and generalizations about what specific people know.

From what I’ve read, all teams are always trying to steal signs, some players obsess over it. Some guys want in on it and others don’t. If you weren’t involved in setting anything up, and the coaching staff was understandably trying to be as nondescript as possible, and you never hit and so nothing needs to be explained to you, how would you know that what was happening involved obviously illegal electronic means that clearly push past the line, as opposed to all the similar but grey stuff that’s been happening around you the rest of the time? Maybe it seems fishier than normal, or maybe not because you’re trying to focus on how the get the next three guys out. 

The only way you don't know what's going on is if you are deliberately looking the other way. We've seen the monitor position, they literally walk past it on the way to the bathroom,  the monitor made an appearance in their 2017 world series video. It's right behind the dugout. Those stairs lead to the dugout. Every single Astro player or coach walked past it repeatedly during games. 

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

48 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Apparently only a Mike Fiers quality human being does that, but for a veteran leader and cy young award winner on a billion dollar franchise, here's some possibles. 

1. Complain to your manager.
2. Make a public statement in front of your teammates.
3. Organize several of your teammmates to support you as a leader on your roster and tell management that it stops.
4. Complain to your general manager once the manager does nothing. 
5. Go over the general manager's head to ownership. Make it so that Crane's "I knew nothing" statement yesterday no longer holds up.
6. Complain to your union representatives. 
7. Take matters into your own hands. If the wimp of a manager won't do actual damage to the screen do it yourself. 

They're the ones tainting you. Are you a leader or aren't you?

No one is going to speak out against their teammates while a member of that team; it goes against the culture of the game, which you could argue is broken surely but it doesn't take away the fact that you're not going to throw your entire team under the bus while a member of that team. This is Fiers livelihood, and any pushy actions at the time could have cost him his career and his job. I don't blame Fiers one bit for not exposing the charade while he was employed by that organization, and I think you're being very naive if you think Fiers - or any other pitcher - would have the power to put a stop to this solely with their words. 

Keuchel, or Fiers for that matter, could have spoken out and expressed their disagreements but we would never know, and to think that would accomplish or stop something is naive. Team think and team speak is a very real thing once you become entrenched; it's really difficult to expose them and call yourself into question. You can say that's what you would have done, but history tells us that silence would likely be your course of action as it would be for most everyone.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

38 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

One thing a Frank Thomas did NOT do is immediately out his teammates, which is what this would require. 

Look, I’d love to hear that one of the players stepped up and confronted the manager about this, and I’d call that player a hero. But I think that’s way easier said than done, and we have to keep in mind that many of the players, and probably especially the pitchers, knew less about what was happening than we all do now at the end of the investigation. So not only are you challenging your boss directly, but you’re probably doing it on a hunch. 

Trying to find an analog here: Assuming you aren’t in finance, if you found out that some people in your finance department at work were likely doing something to avoid paying corporate taxes, and you weren’t in any way responsible for that department, would you do anything about it? Maybe tell your boss? Would that change if you knew your boss was in on it? I mean there’s a huge range of things you could do, from quitting to telling the IRS. But they all involve you probably looking for a new job. And maybe you would do something like that, but it’s a lot to ask of someone who has a family and maybe doesn’t understand what’s going on completely. 

Im just saying that things were likely less black and white for the players on the periphery and we have to understand and acknowledge the costs of action if we are going to expect action to be taken. 

Yeah, Frank wasn't going to out his teammates and he wasn't going to point fingers; he simply told us all that it was a huge issue before anyone else said a thing.

Frank couldn't stand that players who were worse than him were putting up better numbers; he wasn't going to name names because these are fellow union members and there is an immense amount of pressure to not throw your fellow union members under the bus.

[Bob Sacamano]

55 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Apparently only a Mike Fiers quality human being does that, but for a veteran leader and cy young award winner on a billion dollar franchise, here's some possibles. 

1. Complain to your manager.
2. Make a public statement in front of your teammates.
3. Organize several of your teammmates to support you as a leader on your roster and tell management that it stops.
4. Complain to your general manager once the manager does nothing. 
5. Go over the general manager's head to ownership. Make it so that Crane's "I knew nothing" statement yesterday no longer holds up.
6. Complain to your union representatives. 
7. Take matters into your own hands. If the wimp of a manager won't do actual damage to the screen do it yourself. 

They're the ones tainting you. Are you a leader or aren't you?

What do you want him to do, squeal on his team and be alienated by the entire organization?

Really confused why you are attacking him. Other former players aren't speaking up either (besides Fiers who seems to be butthurt for being left off the World Series roster).

And as Ray Ray says, we wouldn't know if they did put a foot down or not at the time.

Edited January 14, 2020 by soxfan2014

[bmags]

40 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Didn't they do the same thing except use Apple watches to talk to each other?  And at this point we really don't know the extent of what they did, when Cora is punished I'm sure more info will trickle out

well, the athletic articles from rosenthal and drellich have been pretty spot on, and what they detailed with the red sox was more limited than the astros garbage can antics.

[Balta1701]

Just now, soxfan2014 said:

What do you want him to do, squeal on his team and be alienated by the entire organization?

Well you replied to a whole list of ways that a true leader could act that wouldn't involve going public, but specifically take a look at what you just said. How the heck is "squealing" viewed as worse than cheating to win a world series? I was reading statements yesterday by a Dodgers fan about how that world series was one of the "last experiences they had with their dad before they died", and now that they know how the series really went down it tears them apart. Compare that to "squealing" and tell me that you think squealing on a bunch of cheaters is worse. 

[reiks12]

4 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

What do you want him to do, squeal on his team and be alienated by the entire organization?

Really confused why you are attacking him. Other former players aren't speaking up either (besides Fiers who seems to be butthurt for being left off the World Series roster).

And as Ray Ray says, we wouldn't know if they did put a foot down or not at the time.

Also Farquhar found out about the scheme during his game and he likely told the White Sox about it. Should we now be angry at him and our coaches for not doing more about it?