ptatc Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: I can't get a suspension but I can ask for public contrition. It may make you feel better but it won't change a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The only way you don't know what's going on is if you are deliberately looking the other way. We've seen the monitor position, they literally walk past it on the way to the bathroom, the monitor made an appearance in their 2017 world series video. It's right behind the dugout. Those stairs lead to the dugout. Every single Astro player or coach walked past it repeatedly during games. Maybe it was obvious, maybe not. I’ve read reports that say a lot of guys didn’t know the extent of what was happening, and I’ve read reports that say at least some of them knew exactly what was happening and it didn’t feel wrong, based on what they thought was normal in the MLB. But regardless of how clear the information was, you’re ignoring my larger point, which is the extent that you are comfortable making someone personally responsible for taking substantial personal risks to be a whistleblower for a baseball game. There is a very real relational power imbalance between and employer and an employee. I’m all for respecting someone willing to put his future at risk for the sake of a moral claim on a game’s rules, but I’m way far away from demanding it as standard operating procedure. It’s very easy for us to act all righteous from our computer screens when we never had anything to lose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: It may make you feel better but it won't change a thing. I'm open to other suggestions. If you want to say that the White Sox should suspend him for a month I'm listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Eminor3rd said: Maybe it was obvious, maybe not. I’ve read reports that say a lot of guys didn’t know the extent of what was happening, and I’ve read reports that say at least some of them knew exactly what was happening and it didn’t feel wrong, based on what they thought was normal in the MLB. But regardless of how clear the information was, you’re ignoring my larger point, which is the extent that you are comfortable making someone personally responsible for taking substantial personal risks to be a whistleblower for a baseball game. There is a very real relational power imbalance between and employer and an employee. I’m all for respecting someone willing to put his future at risk for the sake of a moral claim on a game’s rules, but I’m way far away from demanding it as standard operating procedure. It’s very easy for us to act all righteous from our computer screens when we never had anything to lose. But I also have every right to judge the person based on whether or not they did the right thing in that situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Well you replied to a whole list of ways that a true leader could act that wouldn't involve going public, but specifically take a look at what you just said. How the heck is "squealing" viewed as worse than cheating to win a world series? I was reading statements yesterday by a Dodgers fan about how that world series was one of the "last experiences they had with their dad before they died", and now that they know how the series really went down it tears them apart. Compare that to "squealing" and tell me that you think squealing on a bunch of cheaters is worse. You keep pinning 'true leader' on Keuchel but what makes you think thats the kind of guy he is? Is it because hes a professional athlete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: I'm open to other suggestions. If you want to say that the White Sox should suspend him for a month I'm listening. Guess we can cross George Springer off the list of guys you may want for RF next year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: I'm open to other suggestions. If you want to say that the White Sox should suspend him for a month I'm listening. There is nothing you can do and nothing will change. They can't and shouldn't punish players not involved. Very few people have the guts to be the "whistleblower" in any employment setting. It's totally different if he is guilty of using "an illegal substance" on the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, reiks12 said: You keep pinning 'true leader' on Keuchel Drake LaRoche would have put a top to all of this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: What do you want him to do, squeal on his team and be alienated by the entire organization? Really confused why you are attacking him. Other former players aren't speaking up either (besides Fiers who seems to be butthurt for being left off the World Series roster). And as Ray Ray says, we wouldn't know if they did put a foot down or not at the time. Fiers spoke up because it was the right thing to do, and I truly believe he saw young guys get destroyed and had watched the Darvish situation unfold and he had enough; sure, them rocking him probably gave him a little boost, but I trust and believe Fiers when he said the reason why he did what he did. Saying he was butthurt is the PR spin the Astros placed on this; similarly to Luhnow trying to blame low level employees. There really is a disconnect and separation between pitchers and position players in baseball. They are operated as two separate units, and anything from workouts/weights to drills are typically done as a unit and not as a full team. A pitcher really wouldn't have much power in this situation; however difficult that is to believe or understand. Also, what would Keuchel or Fiers be capable of doing? Hinch already is claiming he didn't like it (he's full of shit), and if he couldn't stop it despite not liking it as manager, what the fuck is Dallas Keuchel going to do? If you go public as a member of the team mid-season, you get blackballed from the league possibly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, reiks12 said: You keep pinning 'true leader' on Keuchel but what makes you think thats the kind of guy he is? Is it because hes a professional athlete? Quote In officially announcing their signing of veteran left-hander Dallas Keuchel on Monday, the White Sox praised both his steady production and the intangibles that he can bring to the team. "We viewed this signing as the next logical step in our process," general manager Rick Hahn said. "This was a high priority in the offseason by not only adding someone to stabilize the rotation but someone who will be a key contributor inside the clubhouse as well." Keuchel, who turns 32 in January, signed a three-year, $55.5-million deal. He will be paid $18 million in each of the next three seasons on a contract with a $1.5 million buyout. The deal includes a $20-million team option for 2023. In Keuchel, the White Sox have added a durable pitcher with a career 3.67 ERA and also an individual whom they expect can help lead a young clubhouse as they look to compete for a playoff berth in 2020. "We have spent a lot of time over the past few years acquiring what we think is highly impactful young pitching," Hahn said. "It has always been our plan at one point to add someone to this rotation who could stabilize the group between the lines but also someone to mentor those young starters as they take those steps toward fulfilling their potential at the big league level." https://670thescore.radio.com/white-sox-praise-counting-on-dallas-keuchel-production-leadership Some mentor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GradMc Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 A great baseball team like that stealing signs. I like the Astros but they took a big dive with this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Fiers spoke up because it was the right thing to do, I look at his Vs. Opponent splits and have to be skeptical that this is the case... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Just now, Balta1701 said: https://670thescore.radio.com/white-sox-praise-counting-on-dallas-keuchel-production-leadership Some mentor. This is becoming comical. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Well you replied to a whole list of ways that a true leader could act that wouldn't involve going public, but specifically take a look at what you just said. How the heck is "squealing" viewed as worse than cheating to win a world series? I was reading statements yesterday by a Dodgers fan about how that world series was one of the "last experiences they had with their dad before they died", and now that they know how the series really went down it tears them apart. Compare that to "squealing" and tell me that you think squealing on a bunch of cheaters is worse. Come on; this is quite the reach. Those experiences and memories with his father were created win or lose, and using the death of some man to garner sympathy is a bit low. Again, speaking up publicly could very well have cost Keuchel or Fiers their MLB careers. There is much greater risk in this than you are proclaiming. Trust within a clubhouse are an integral part of ones team building; teams would rather employee a wife beater than someone who makes private things public. I get that's fucked up, but it's reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 (edited) Like most big companies these days, I wonder if the MLB has a whistleblower program in which a player could’ve informed the MLB on the cheating going on anonymously? Edited January 14, 2020 by Moan4Yoan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: https://670thescore.radio.com/white-sox-praise-counting-on-dallas-keuchel-production-leadership Some mentor. Pitching mentor does not mean life coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said: Like most big companies these days, I wonder if the MLB has a whistleblower program in which a player could’ve informed the MLB on the cheating going on anonymously? Everyone. Knew. If you want to know how frowned upon it is to expose your fellow union brothers, look no further than Trevor Bauer. Bauer is pissed about cheating and has hinted at this for two years but he never ever named names, nor did he ever say what was happening. Guys around the league talk - this wasnt a big secret. Multiple teams, privately accused the Astros of this. Nothing happened. To think Dallas Keuchel could have been the leader of change is incredibly funny to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: To think Dallas Keuchel could have been the leader of change is incredibly funny to me. Not just to think, but to expect it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Everyone. Knew. If you want to know how frowned upon it is to expose your fellow union brothers, look no further than Trevor Bauer. Bauer is pissed about cheating and has hinted at this for two years but he never ever named names, nor did he ever say what was happening. Guys around the league talk - this wasnt a big secret. Multiple teams, privately accused the Astros of this. Nothing happened. To think Dallas Keuchel could have been the leader of change is incredibly funny to me. The idea that he could have made no difference internally by being a voice for doing the right thing sounds equally funny to me. That said...the guy who I might hang that on the most is Verlander. Shows up midsesason right in the middle of that, is a near surefire hall of famer with no world series ring, shows up, and lets this continue? Congrats man, your ring needs an asterisk carved on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: The idea that he could have made no difference internally by being a voice for doing the right thing sounds equally funny to me. There's a 99% chance he would be told to shut the fuck up and go pitch. And again, for the 9000th time, we have no idea who spoke up against it internally. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: The idea that he could have made no difference internally by being a voice for doing the right thing sounds equally funny to me. That said...the guy who I might hang that on the most is Verlander. Shows up midsesason right in the middle of that, is a near surefire hall of famer with no world series ring, shows up, and lets this continue? Congrats man, your ring needs an asterisk carved on it. Again, a pitcher wasn't going to alter the decision making of 75% of the position players. A pitcher being unhappy with the process wasn't going to change a thing. If you believe the manager was already unhappy (I call BS, but that's what was reported) and he couldn't change it, as the boss, then I have no idea what you think Dallas Keuchel could have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Again, a pitcher wasn't going to alter the decision making of 75% of the position players. A pitcher being unhappy with the process wasn't going to change a thing. If you believe the manager was already unhappy (I call BS, but that's what was reported) and he couldn't change it, as the boss, then I have no idea what you think Dallas Keuchel could have done. FWIW, I agree with you that the manager's statement was BS, but it's also worth noting that per the MLB report, every single interviewed player said that if Hinch had told them to stop then it would have stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Balta1701 said: How did Frank Thomas react to the rampant steroid abuse in baseball? We are literally praising his response to that, correctly, in an other thread right now on this page. You're going to tell me that the players had no influence at all? The veterans? That if Keuchel had sat down with the manager and said "We can't do this", he couldn't have made something happen? That all these so-called clean players would have just cowered? That if Verlander had gotten there, seen this stuff, and immediately said "you're not going to taint my chances at a ring", that it doesn't end right then and there? Exactly what are you looking for? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 Just now, Balta1701 said: FWIW, I agree with you that the manager's statement was BS, but it's also worth noting that per the MLB report, every single interviewed player said that if Hinch had told them to stop then it would have stopped. Yes, and none of them said if Dallas Keuchel told me to stop, I would have stopped right away. Hinch was the boss; Keuchel was just a cog in the wheel and he couldn't make any change and I don't think it would be breaking news that most of the pitchers probably didn't think very highly of their cheating. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Yes, and none of them said if Dallas Keuchel told me to stop, I would have stopped right away. Hinch was the boss; Keuchel was just a cog in the wheel and he couldn't make any change and I don't think it would be breaking news that most of the pitchers probably didn't think very highly of their cheating. Then they go to Hinch and say "This needs to stop, there's a line and we don't want to cross it." Instead, they looked the other way. And in that, we learn their character. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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