COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[StrangeSox]

4 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Living in Grand Rapids, yeah, a lot of people are pissed right now. I personally know someone who went to that and protested. A lot of people got pissed when Whitmer (they now affectionately call her Whitler) tightened the restrictions on the stay-at-home order. Here's my take on it:

For the people protesting: Chill out. The government isn't taking our rights and freedoms away. This is literally to save lives.  I believe the saying is: life. liberty, pursuit of happiness...and LIFE comes first. Stay at home. Oh and good job social distancing at that protest. It's obvious none of them are taking this virus seriously and are just risking more lives by protesting the way they did.

For Whitmer: I don't think she needed to tighten her restrictions on the order. It was just fine how it was. Extend it, yes. That needed to happen. Not sure things really needed to be added to it though. The things she added to it were weird and she didn't explain herself well, with why she made the decisions she did to tighten the restrictions. However, I think she is acting very professionally in all of this, which is saying a lot compared to some of our other "leaders" in our country.

These protests are being funded and stoked by interested parties. They're not really organic.

 

edit:

I count a few dozen cars here. It looks like a big group thanks to the vehicles, but now imagine maybe 80 people standing on the lawn. Not such an impressive looking protest then.

I also have to wonder how these same people reacted a few years ago to any BLM or other more liberal-minded protests that blocked traffic.

Edited April 15, 2020 by StrangeSox

[tray]

Looks like a block of the Stevenson Expy during any rush hour.

[ScootsMcGoots]

41 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

These protests are being funded and stoked by interested parties. They're not really organic.

 

edit:

I count a few dozen cars here. It looks like a big group thanks to the vehicles, but now imagine maybe 80 people standing on the lawn. Not such an impressive looking protest then.

I also have to wonder how these same people reacted a few years ago to any BLM or other more liberal-minded protests that blocked traffic.

I can guaruntee you this is not being funded by interested parties. Like I said, I personally know someone who went there, and money is not the motive. There is a facebook group called "Michiganders Against Excessive Quarantine" and I'm pretty sure most of the people on that page are there. All you need to do is look at the posts on the page. Those people are not there because they're getting paid, they are there because they legitimately believe their rights and freedoms are being threatened and stripped right now. Which I think is silly and birthed out of fear, to be completely honest.

[Dick Allen]

There is a new study out that claims if the shelter in place orders were placed just 2 weeks earlier, the  US death toll would have been 6,000. 

[StrangeSox]

28 minutes ago, ScooterMcGee said:

I can guaruntee you this is not being funded by interested parties. Like I said, I personally know someone who went there, and money is not the motive. There is a facebook group called "Michiganders Against Excessive Quarantine" and I'm pretty sure most of the people on that page are there. All you need to do is look at the posts on the page. Those people are not there because they're getting paid, they are there because they legitimately believe their rights and freedoms are being threatened and stripped right now. Which I think is silly and birthed out of fear, to be completely honest.

Oh not like these individual people are getting a paycheck for protesting or anything, but the promotion and organization is being astroturfed. These protests will get favorable coverage in conservative media, from big name networks to various social media groups.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/13/trump-reopen-economy-conservative-groups-coronavirus/

White House aides, outside groups launch effort to reopen economy, but Mnuchin says decision poses risks

Quote

 

The conservative groups, meanwhile, are pushing for the White House and GOP lawmakers to push back against health professionals who have urged more caution.

The outside effort from conservative groups is expected to be led by Stephen Moore, a conservative at the Heritage Foundation who is close with White House economic officials; Jenny Beth Martin, co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots; Adam Brandon, president of FreedomWorks, a conservative advocacy organization; and Lisa Nelson, chief executive of the American Legislative Exchange Council, a conservative organization with ties to the Koch brothers, according to the three people, who were granted anonymity to reveal details of an effort that had not been publicly revealed.

[...]

“There’s a massive movement on the right now, growing exponentially. In the next two weeks, you’ll see protests in the streets of conservatives; you’ll see a big pushback against the lockdown in some states. People are at the boiling point,” said Moore, who declined to comment on the group. “If this were Hillary Clinton doing these things, you already would have riots in the streets.”

 

So some of the anger and anxiety is definitely real, especially from those who have lost their jobs already and don't know how they're going to make ends meet. These people shouldn't be shamed for feeling scared or anxious, but they have seriously misdirected their anger and misunderstand the possible solutions imo. But this legitimate fear then gets stoked and amplified by these larger, well-funded groups into something bigger than it originally was.

 

[mqr]

19 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

There is a new study out that claims if the shelter in place orders were placed just 2 weeks earlier, the  US death toll would have been 6,000. 

I'm certainly not handing out medals for our governments response, but people would absolutely not have accepted a stay at home two weeks prior. 

[Jose Abreu]

 

[mqr]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

 

"Millionaires to reap 80% of benefit from tax change" is evergreen. The second part is just ad-lib

[Jerksticks]

2 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

People are going to the hospital because they're sick, not to get tested. Getting tested doesn't make people sick. Testing can occur at clinics or doctors offices or various other places.

Let me call the governors and update them.  

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, ScooterMcGee said:

I can guaruntee you this is not being funded by interested parties. Like I said, I personally know someone who went there, and money is not the motive. There is a facebook group called "Michiganders Against Excessive Quarantine" and I'm pretty sure most of the people on that page are there. All you need to do is look at the posts on the page. Those people are not there because they're getting paid, they are there because they legitimately believe their rights and freedoms are being threatened and stripped right now. Which I think is silly and birthed out of fear, to be completely honest.

Michigan Militia!   Soros!   Protest funded by DeVos to embarrass Whitmer and prevent her from getting VP nod!

 

Now president threatening to unilaterally adjourn Congress if they don’t approve his nominees.

Pretty much exactly what Obama did when McConnell sat on Merrick Garland for months and months, right?

92 nominations potentially held up, but over 150 (shocking!) not even presented for consideration.  Mostly judges.  Many of those positions are in the public health sector...months and months too late.  

“We have the right to do whatever we want.”   Okay...and also threatening actions against states (certainly with Dem governors.)

Does anyone besides the base care at all about Voice of America broadcasts right now?

 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/most-americans-like-how-their-governor-is-handling-the-coronavirus-outbreak/

 

Edited April 15, 2020 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

40 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Let me call the governors and update them.  

So the theory is that if there are less tests, fewer people will know they’re sick...or what they have exactly, causing them to be more likely to stay at home and heal themselves (thus avoiding hospitals being overwhelmed)?   That potentially works on keeping deaths and case numbers down (many will also delay going to hospital when their cases become too acute, quickly die, and not be counted), but definitely has the opposite effect on reopening.  
 

No symptoms, no test?  Of course, the other problem is having to go to the doctor FIRST in order to get tested.  Secondly, lots of studies are showing indisputable evidence of patients being the most contagious at least 3-5 days before exhibiting any physical symptoms...which is why we had that 5.7 figure of new infections caused by asymptomatic super spreaders.  So there are obviously immense flaws in this not testing.  Trump doesn’t want to run a Wal Mart parking lot test center, fine.   But that doesn’t change issues of availability, accuracy and lack of testing reagents due to worldwide demands.
 

Remember, a couple of weeks ago, the government was promising to pay for testing and many insurance companies were waiving co-pays for hospitalizations...what happened to that?

Edited April 15, 2020 by caulfield12

[justBLAZE]

2 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

There is a new study out that claims if the shelter in place orders were placed just 2 weeks earlier, the  US death toll would have been 6,000. 

Would you share a link please. 

[Jerksticks]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

So the theory is that if there are less tests, fewer people will know they’re sick...or what they have exactly, causing them to be more likely to stay at home and heal themselves (thus avoiding hospitals being overwhelmed)?   That potentially works on keeping deaths and case numbers down (many will also delay going to hospital when their cases become too acute, quickly die, and not be counted), but definitely has the opposite effect on reopening.  
 

No symptoms, no test?  Of course, the other problem is having to go to the doctor FIRST in order to get tested.  Secondly, lots of studies are showing indisputable evidence of patients being the most contagious at least 3-5 days before exhibiting any physical symptoms...which is why we had that 5.7 figure of new infections caused by asymptomatic super spreaders.  So there are obviously immense flaws in this not testing.  Trump doesn’t want to run a Wal Mart parking lot test center, fine.   But that doesn’t change issues of availability, accuracy and lack of testing reagents due to worldwide demands.
 

Remember, a couple of weeks ago, the government was promising to pay for testing and many insurance companies were waiving co-pays for hospitalizations...what happened to that?

Everyone got the virus.  That’s what happened.  The idea of testing and containing realistically ended before it could ever begin.  I know you all disagree with me that pretty much the whole world has the virus now, I get that.  
 

But what if?  Here’s the thing: we finally have a test case.  Sweden.  I think most can agree that most of Sweden is infected now.  Let’s see where it stands with them in a couple weeks.  The world will have the absolute closest thing to it’s first ACTIONABLE set of data.  We should all be thanking Sweden for doing this.  Even if tons of their people die, which would be tragic, the world will at least have real numbers that finally mean something for the FIRST time.  
 

Sweden is Indiana Jones taking a sip of the grail...or Donovan. 

[caulfield12]

41 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Everyone got the virus.  That’s what happened.  The idea of testing and containing realistically ended before it could ever begin.  I know you all disagree with me that pretty much the whole world has the virus now, I get that.  
 

But what if?  Here’s the thing: we finally have a test case.  Sweden.  I think most can agree that most of Sweden is infected now.  Let’s see where it stands with them in a couple weeks.  The world will have the absolute closest thing to it’s first ACTIONABLE set of data.  We should all be thanking Sweden for doing this.  Even if tons of their people die, which would be tragic, the world will at least have real numbers that finally mean something for the FIRST time.  
 

Sweden is Indiana Jones taking a sip of the grail...or Donovan. 

The problem is waiting 2-3 MORE weeks limits the range of options pretty dramatically.

We might end up simply reacting again, instead of trying to get ahead of the curve.

We have totally different health care systems, underlying conditions/co-morbidities, ratios of beds/doctors/respirators/nurses...population demographics.  

How many major cities do you have outside of Stockholm?

And Sweden is at 12000 cases and 1200 deaths...so you’re waiting x number of days, and how much longer to be able to scientifically assess the data?

What about the different medications they’re using?

 

Taiwan right now is the best case study...and they at least have three major metropolitan areas on a densely populated island.  Sweden might relate more to the South, Heartland and near west/Rockies in terms of pop density, but the two coasts, Illinois, Texas, LA, Michigan, Ohio, are different animals.

 

https://www.thelocal.se/20200310/timeline-how-the-coronavirus-has-developed-in-sweden
Well, here’s the latest accessible info on Swedish numbers.

Edited April 16, 2020 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, Jerksticks said:

Everyone got the virus.  That’s what happened.  The idea of testing and containing realistically ended before it could ever begin.  I know you all disagree with me that pretty much the whole world has the virus now, I get that.  
 

But what if?  Here’s the thing: we finally have a test case.  Sweden.  I think most can agree that most of Sweden is infected now.  Let’s see where it stands with them in a couple weeks.  The world will have the absolute closest thing to it’s first ACTIONABLE set of data.  We should all be thanking Sweden for doing this.  Even if tons of their people die, which would be tragic, the world will at least have real numbers that finally mean something for the FIRST time.  
 

Sweden is Indiana Jones taking a sip of the grail...or Donovan. 

And that’s why Sweden has the most deaths in the world. Wait...

 

You did see the article I posted of a thousand antibody tests in Telluride and 8 positive results total right?

[caulfield12]

19 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

And that’s why Sweden has the most deaths in the world. Wait...

 

You did see the article I posted of a thousand antibody tests in Telluride and 8 positive results total right?

https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-antibody-tests-colorado-stalled-new-york-lab-2020-4
 

But they’re still missing at least 75% of the test results...due to, you guessed it, coronavirus infections in lab workers all the way across the country in NY, where the results are actually being analyzed.

Hard to extrapolate from numbers of 1000-2000, unless you randomly tested another 50-100 communities across Colorado.

Not to mention there seem to be significant error ranges with these antibody tests (back to Ed Yong/The Atlantic article.)

[StrangeSox]

3 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Everyone got the virus.  That’s what happened.  The idea of testing and containing realistically ended before it could ever begin.  I know you all disagree with me that pretty much the whole world has the virus now, I get that.  
 

But what if?  Here’s the thing: we finally have a test case.  Sweden.  I think most can agree that most of Sweden is infected now.  Let’s see where it stands with them in a couple weeks.  The world will have the absolute closest thing to it’s first ACTIONABLE set of data.  We should all be thanking Sweden for doing this.  Even if tons of their people die, which would be tragic, the world will at least have real numbers that finally mean something for the FIRST time.  
 

Sweden is Indiana Jones taking a sip of the grail...or Donovan. 

Lol

Late edit: wait why are we assuming nearly everyone in Sweden is already infected that doesn't seem to match up to reality at all!

 

 

For some reason this comes to mind:

Well, everyone knows Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book presupposes is... maybe he didn't.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

 

[Balta1701]

46 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

 

Hard to extrapolate from numbers of 1000-2000, unless you randomly tested another 50-100 communities across Colorado.

WTF? Seriously how have you never seen a poll?

[southsider2k5]

18 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

 

So how does this tie back to the President? He either has a stake here, or a donor does.

[turnin' two]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

Lol

 

For some reason this comes to mind:

Well, everyone knows Custer died at Little Bighorn. What this book presupposes is... maybe he didn't.

 

[turnin' two]

3 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Sweden is Indiana Jones taking a sip of the grail...or Donovan. 

[turnin' two]

Some of the Michigan stuff seems bonkers to me.  I mean, if you're already at Target, is there really a difference in popping over one aisle to buy a toy to occupy your kid?  Or to buy some gardening stuff?  

I have a good friend that lives near a lake in Michigan.  He can't take his boat out there alone, or go to cabin up north.  But the crazy part, at least according to what he told me, is that if he had a kayak or canoe, he could take it out, the restriction is against boats with motors.  So apparently it is the engine that spreads the virus?  And while he can't go up North, it would be ok for me to drive in from Illinois to go to a cabin in Northern Michigan.  That stuff makes no sense to me.  And again, this is just based on what he told me, I didn't do a ton of research into it.  But it seems so illogical, that is is just the sort of thing a politician would think of implementing.  

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Some of the Michigan stuff seems bonkers to me.  I mean, if you're already at Target, is there really a difference in popping over one aisle to buy a toy to occupy your kid?  Or to buy some gardening stuff?  

I have a good friend that lives near a lake in Michigan.  He can't take his boat out there alone, or go to cabin up north.  But the crazy part, at least according to what he told me, is that if he had a kayak or canoe, he could take it out, the restriction is against boats with motors.  So apparently it is the engine that spreads the virus?  And while he can't go up North, it would be ok for me to drive in from Illinois to go to a cabin in Northern Michigan.  That stuff makes no sense to me.  And again, this is just based on what he told me, I didn't do a ton of research into it.  But it seems so illogical, that is is just the sort of thing a politician would think of implementing.  

1. Having more aisles and more merchandise at those stores draws extra stuff in which raises the chances that 1 person is infected. 1 infected person touching the wrong things can lead to 10 more cases. You can’t shut down food or health supplies, but your garden is not worth someone’s life.

2. I have never been in a kayak or canoe with 10 people. I have been in small motorized  boats with like 10 family members. Repeatedly. 

i don’t know if those were part of the ones issued yesterday or if those were issued a while ago, but there’s no perfect way to do this. You’re trying to think through all of human behavior in every industry in like 3 days. Some stuff won’t make sense as written but it will address one specific situation that someone asked about. With 2 years to prepare maybe you write a different rule, but right now, overdoing the restrictions is way smarter than leaving one path too weak and winding up infecting the wrong person.

[YoYoIsMyHero]