COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[StrangeSox]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

How few cases before you open up schools, bars, and restaurants? 

A few orders of magnitude lower than we are currently.

 

How many more illnesses and deaths until you think it's smart to shut down again?

[Texsox]

9 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Opening up bars, restaurants, schools etc with uncontrolled spread is irresponsible

 

The reward for getting things under control is that you get to do those things until there's a localized outbreak, and then that area has to shut down for a bit again.

Responsible countries that relied on public policy to address a major public health crisis have shown this works. Irresponsible countries relying on "personal responsibility" while opening things up have shown their methods are complete failures.

How many tens of thousands of more deaths do you need to see, Tex?

So people shouldn't be responsible? That's still blows my mind. Irresponsible people are spreading the virus. How can you not see that? Be responsible and wear a damn mask. This starts with people be responsible. You can make all the laws you want but if people act irresponsibly the virus will spread. 

But keep rejecting the idea that if people were acting responsibly we would be in a better place. Keep defending personal irresponsibility.

[Texsox]

5 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

A few orders of magnitude lower than we are currently.

 

How many more illnesses and deaths until you think it's smart to shut down where? Globally? Statewide? Counlottety wide? 

Lower where? Globally? Statewide? Country wide? There are areas with zero infections still. 

I'm traveling in an area with less than a dozen infections over the past three months. Seems low enough to eat and drink outside, fifteen feet from anyone else.

[ron883]

51 minutes ago, SleepyWhiteSox said:

Actually taxing the rich and corporations, for one?  Maybe a little less military spending?  That should free up a few billions and billions and billions for those that actually need it.

Regarding your first point. What do you want the tax rates raised to and how much do you expect it to generate for bailout money?

Second point, military spending. Do you honestly expect military spending to be cut? Who is going to do that? Never happens.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Yearnin' for Yermin

[StrangeSox]

8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So people shouldn't be responsible? That's still blows my mind. Irresponsible people are spreading the virus. How can you not see that? Be responsible and wear a damn mask. This starts with people be responsible. You can make all the laws you want but if people act irresponsibly the virus will spread. 

But keep rejecting the idea that if people were acting responsibly we would be in a better place. Keep defending personal irresponsibility.

If if if

 

 

But they aren't. Every official signal is that it's safe to go to bars, schools, theaters, restaurants and other public spaces. So people go. And the disease spreads.

We've tried your method of relying on personal responsibility. It has very conclusively failed. If many diverse people keep failing at the same thing, it's a good indication there's a problem with the underlying process. And we have examples from around the world of what successful and failed management look like. 

How many more deaths, Tex?

[Texsox]

If people wear a mask are they being responsible?

If people socially distance are they being responsible?

If people quarantine when feeling sick is that responsible?

Should people be responsible or irresponsible?

How can you argue against people being responsible and following the laws and doing those things?

There are areas of the world that should be shut down. There are also areas that can begin to open with strict rules in places. 

[Dick Allen]

26 minutes ago, Quin said:

Trump is on steroids now. That's a bad sign.

The other guy who really might have a huge problem is Chris Christy. Not only is he severely overweight, he also has asthma. And they haven’t announced Biden’s test results yet. 

[StrangeSox]

8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

If people wear a mask are they being responsible?

If people socially distance are they being responsible?

If people quarantine when feeling sick is that responsible?

Should people be responsible or irresponsible?

How can you argue against people being responsible and following the laws and doing those things?

There are areas of the world that should be shut down. There are also areas that can begin to open with strict rules in places. 

People should be responsible.

 

We have conclusive evidence in what our current set of policies allows and encourages as well as the outcome.

 

It's a widespread failure.

[southsider2k5]

28 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So people shouldn't be responsible? That's still blows my mind. Irresponsible people are spreading the virus. How can you not see that? Be responsible and wear a damn mask. This starts with people be responsible. You can make all the laws you want but if people act irresponsibly the virus will spread. 

But keep rejecting the idea that if people were acting responsibly we would be in a better place. Keep defending personal irresponsibility.

So we know that a large minority of people in the country are responsible for the spread, but aren't willing to do anything about it. The whole idea of responsibility isn't happening.  This isn't a theoretical IF. It is real life where 200000 people are dead.

[Chisoxfn]

49 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

It's wildly irresponsible that they haven't transferred power temporarily given just what we know from the public statements. This is the person in charge of our national defense and nuclear weapons and he's clearly operating at diminished capacity.

Jumping to these sort of conclusions is crazy too. 

[Dick Allen]

11 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Jumping to these sort of conclusions is crazy too. 

Once he went on oxygen, power needed to be transferred. It isn’t going to happen because that might be considered a sign of weakness, and this is a dick measuring contest, not an exercise to keep the country as safe as possible,but it should have happened.

This is a guy who mocked Hillary Clinton for almost collapsing when she had pneumonia, and whose rally crowd laughed and applauded the mockery. So transferring power while he is conscious will never happen.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Regarding your first point. What do you want the tax rates raised to and how much do you expect it to generate for bailout money?

Second point, military spending. Do you honestly expect military spending to be cut? Who is going to do that? Never happens.

See Clinton, Bill...second point.   To hear a certain someone talk, Obama cut it to practically zero, lol.

[Texsox]

53 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So we know that a large minority of people in the country are responsible for the spread, but aren't willing to do anything about it. The whole idea of responsibility isn't happening.  This isn't a theoretical IF. It is real life where 200000 people are dead.

That small minority needs to be forced into responsibility. Telling everyone else that personal responsibility isn't important is a step backwards. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Texsox said:

That small minority needs to be forced into responsibility. Telling everyone else that personal responsibility isn't important is a step backwards. 

This is quite literally the policy of the President.  People are killing others because they don't actually believe in responsibility.  But sure the solution is platitudes. The rest of the world figured it out, just not us.

[Texsox]

50 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is quite literally the policy of the President.  People are killing others because they don't actually believe in responsibility.  But sure the solution is platitudes. The rest of the world figured it out, just not us.

I've been saying people have to be personally responsible for days but I keep hearing I'm wrong and it doesn't work. So I'm convinced. I'm on the personally irresponsible bandwagon.

I believe being responsible means following the rules that are in place. If the rules state bars are closed. Follow the rules. If they say outdoor bars under these conditions are ok, then follow those conditions. If you are irresponsible and not following the laws you should be dealt with like any other crime. Being responsible you are less likely to spread a virus than being irresponsible. At least according to every dictionary I looked at. But if you think you should be irresponsible, go for it, just not around me. I want responsible people around me.

Personally, I think delivery people are a unnecessary risk and irresponsible to use. They are visiting multiple businesses and multiple homes all day long. But I respect that it is a necessity for some people. It's allowed so who am I to complain? Some people think they are safer with a delivery driver. I prefer to pick up my food myself. If outdoor dining is available and well maintained, I'll stay and eat. Less people involved in the process the better. 

 

 

[Jerksticks]

Seems pretty obvious that the virus EVENTUALLY is going to kill the same percentage of really really old people in every country.  You’ll also have a tiny percentage of unhealthy/unlucky middle-aged people die and a minuscule number of anecdotal deaths/stories among 20-40 yr olds.  That’s what this is.  
 

The virus is going to take its pound of flesh the same everywhere more or less.  It’s each individual’s job to take the necessary precautions.  Wanna wait for a vaccine?  Well, wait for a vaccine.  
 

Personally I feel like college kids should be able to get together and party all they want.  1 out of a million will get sick.  Let them get the immunity and be our shields ?

[greg775]

On 10/3/2020 at 1:27 PM, Texsox said:

It's what you do at the bar. Be responsible and don't congregate. Be responsible and social distance. I posted several pictures yesterday of adults being safe at a bar. Strangers were never closer than 15 feet without masks. If you can't handle being a responsible adult and following safety protocols stay the hell home or get arrested. But don't shut down a business because irresponsible people may show up. Quit making excuses for irresponsible people. 

What a whiney argument that people shouldn't be responsible for their own actions, that is should be the government that is responsible. I believe if someone doesn't wear a mask at the grocery store  they are being irresponsible  and THEY should be punished. If a business is being responsible and requiring masks, socially distancing, taking steps to disinfect after every customer, kicking out irresponsible customers who will not follow the rules, they should be allowed to continue to operate. In fact as a responsible adult I refuse to enter a business that isn't following those rules. 

As a society I'm so tired of people claiming nothing is the person's fault. That people can't be personally responsible for their own damn actions.  If the bar is open you can't ask people to stay 6 feet apart from strangers. You can't expect them not to dance. You can't expect people to actually follow rules. Bull shit. People have to be held personally accountable for their actions. People have to be responsible and do the right thing for themselves and everyone around them. If you can't follow rules you get punished not the people who are following the rules. If someone refuses to wear a mask in a grocery store they should be removed, we shouldn't shut down grocery stores. If someone refuses to stay six feet away from strangers in a bar they should be removed, the bar shouldn't be shut down.

But we just keep adapting for the people who don't give a shit about anyone else and shutting everything down. The hardworking responsible people have their lives ruined because nothing is anyone's fault anymore. We can't ask that anyone be personally responsible for their own actions and punish them. No, we have to punish the business owners and responsible people who will wear masks, socially distance, and take steps to not infect anyone else. People need to grow the hell up and be responsible instead of creating a society based around irresponsible people. 

And look at the pictures I posted yesterday. As soon as someone left the area it was sprayed with disinfectant and shut down while it dried. The owners of that place have their entire life savings invested. They are trying hard to stay afloat AND keep their customers safe. I'll take fighting for them over fighting for irresponsible people who can't be held responsible for their own actions. 

This is an excellent post. Awesome stuff and the correct position to take IMO.

[greg775]

18 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

It's not about punishment. It's about getting a pandemic under control.

 

We've tried letting things be open with "responsible" restrictions and relying on "personal responsibility." It's been a total failure, and we never got this thing under control. Hundreds of thousands dead. Millions sick. 30k+ on the hospital right now, including the President.

 

We should have many more things closed right now until cases are down to a manageable level. Confirmed cases from a single White House party last weekend are more than the entire country of Australia yesterday. The US is among the worst on the world at handling this.

 

Going to eat outdoors is lower risk than indoors, but indoors are still getting lots of traffic. And eating outdoors at a restaurant is still less safe than staying home. It's all about risk probabilities. You are engaging in higher risk activities, increasing the chance of spreading the deadly virus on the margins. But when millions of people are all adding a tiny fraction, it adds up to endemic spread and rolling waves of uncontrolled outbreaks across the country.

 

We're all punished by this. 

Your guys' posts make it seem like this is 3 months ago. The reality is more stuff is opening. Vegas concerts are returning soon. College indoor events are allowing fans. Schools are opening more and more. Why are we arguing about opening things. They are open.

[greg775]

10 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

If someone in the US blamed Africans for weaponizing HIV/AIDs, Mexicans for trying to destroy the Obama admin. with the swine flu or claimed the US was responsible for all the drug and crime problems in US inner cities because of CIA collusion with Colombian and Sinaloan drug cartels...would we go along with it if we simply heard it on t.v.?

 

Am I afraid of the Chinese government? Of course I am. My beef is not with the regular Chinese person. Ditto Russia. You know a lot of Americans agree with me. Are Chinese atrocities made up? I am an American and proud of it and yes I am wary of some other government officials.

[Texsox]

I'm trying to think of a plan that works better if people are irresponsible and don't follow it.  So someone help me out. Why is personal irresponsibility better? 

I believe the best course of action is a solid plan that people responsibly follow. Masks, social distancing, people not gathering together unless you live together, limit contact with strangers, etc. When cases are declining have limit opening of businesses and limited opening of schools, etc. When cases are building close everything down. But be responsible and follow the rules. 

Allowing people to be irresponsible is just not a sustainable plan. 

 

 

[Texsox]

2 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

People should be responsible.

 

We have conclusive evidence in what our current set of policies allows and encourages as well as the outcome.

 

It's a widespread failure.

People should be responsible. 

With your plan will it work better with people being responsible or irresponsible? Given a choice would you prefer they are responsible or not? 

Why does your plan fail when people are being responsible? 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Looks like he’s fine. Just left the hospital. Short stay.

[caulfield12]

If even 15% of people are irresponsible, we’re only left with herd immunity to fall back on.

And 15% is probably being generous...

Even with that, does “responsible” mean giving a risky/rushed vaccine to family members before all the Phase 3 trials are even completed and side effects fully studied?
 

The whole situation has become so muddied and politicized that there’s simply no way forward with somewhere between 40-60% now opting to wait on a proven vaccine instead of being sacrificial guinea pigs for multibillion dollar pharmaceutical companies.

[ron883]

5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Looks like he’s fine. Just left the hospital. Short stay.

Was he actually leaving or just taking a trip in the motorcade to wave at his supporters? lol.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Yearnin' for Yermin

[caulfield12]

12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Looks like he’s fine. Just left the hospital. Short stay.

Of course, now he will still act like nothing happened...refuse to be open to any policy changes and attempt to force the debate to go ahead late next week.

He’s either going to have the greatest desperation political comeback in history or crash and burn so completely that even our staunchest allies will be taken aback by the foolhardiness of the US in 2020.

 

Even a serious illness is being turned into a reality show prop to boost the ratings...perfectly timed for the evening news and to calm world stock markets before reopening Monday (China is closed through Thursday for National Holidays.)

Edited October 4, 2020 by caulfield12