COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[NWINFan]

g

19 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

 

I'm wondering when this Tea Party crap is going to die out  or when the sane part of the country truly catches on. These people are paranoid and simple-minded, and they all ever have done is shut the government down or fill the national political debate with garbage.  And they are not the patriots they say they are. They wave the flag or the constitution around when they don't know the symbolism or meaning of either one.  That's right. No one is going to tell them what to do even if they can endanger others. Their idiocy became old years ago.

Hey, GOP. You have become a prisoner to these complete fools. You happy now?

[StrangeSox]

Hopefully this sort of support for governors doing the right thing over what is in reality a very small number of protesters with money/media backing holds

 

It'll be at least somewhat contingent on the federal government stepping up and doing everything possible to ease the economic suffering, though.

 

edit: some Michigan-specific numbers

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by StrangeSox

[NorthSideSox72]

14 hours ago, ptatc said:

This is also really going to hurt universities.  I was in a boring budget meeting when this came out. The meeting went silent then got really interesting. It's going to cost states tens of millions.

With the current administration, I am pretty sure they would see "hurt universities" as a feature, not a bug.

 

[caulfield12]

17 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

With the current administration, I am pretty sure they would see "hurt universities" as a feature, not a bug.

 

Well, except the for profit and sham online universities backed by DeVos & Co.    

For some reason, Arizona State got over $30 million, and the Ivy League schools (all with MANY billions in endowment) getting around $45 million combined.

[StrangeSox]

Quote

(CNN)Wisconsin's Republican-led legislature filed a lawsuit Tuesday in an attempt to reopen the state and block the extension of a stay-at-home order issued by state health officials to slow the spread of the coronavirus.

The lawsuit was filed against Wisconsin's Department of Health Services Secretary-designee Andrea Palm and other health officials, who recently extended the state's "Safer at Home" emergency order until May 26, but loosened some restrictions on certain businesses.

In the complaint, lawmakers argue that if this order remains in effect, "many Wisconsinites will have lost their jobs, and many companies will have gone under, to say nothing of the Order's countless other downstream societal effects. Our State will be in shambles."

The move comes as some protests against stay-at-home orders, backed by conservative groups, have sprung up at state capitols and at least three southern states are moving to reopen parts of their economies. President Donald Trump has also been eager to get Americans back to work and issued new guidelines last week to gradually restart the economy.

Wisconsin GOP lawmakers argued in their lawsuit that Palm's order "irreparably harmed the Legislature by depriving it" of exercising its oversight duties. They also argue that the order is "unlawful," exceeds the department's authority, and is "arbitrary and capricious" because the state agency "failed to provide any reasoned basis for discriminating between 'essential' and 'nonessential' businesses."

The lawsuit filed with the Wisconsin Supreme Court seeks a temporary injunction against the order and a six-day stay so that a new emergency rule can be drawn up that's "consistent with Wisconsin law."

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/politics/wisconsin-legislature-sues-to-reopen-state-coronavirus/index.html?utm_content=2020-04-22T14%3A35%3A04&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twCNNp&utm_term=image

 

 

[bmags]

41 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

With the current administration, I am pretty sure they would see "hurt universities" as a feature, not a bug.

 

that was the case two years ago https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2018/10/03/report-stephen-miller-pushed-ending-chinese-student-visas

[StrangeSox]

If we force heavy austerity measures on state and local governments by not having the federal government help them out, we are guaranteeing that the economic damage will last for years longer.

 

 

edit: they want us to suffer

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by StrangeSox

[caulfield12]

22 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

If we force heavy austerity measures on state and local governments by not having the federal government help them out, we are guaranteeing that the economic damage will last for years longer.

 

If you ask experts in the fields of finance, industry, investing, and marketing, which states would file bankruptcy if given the opportunity? Look close enough, and a few states are a prime candidate for bankruptcy based on pension shortfalls and other financial obligations. These states which hold the highest in total debt and unfunded pension liabilities include Connecticut, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Illinois, Kentucky, and Hawaii. Connecticut ranks number one in the nation for state with the highest debt deficit per capita.

https://www.debtfreeohio.com/bankruptcy-information/bankruptcy/can-states-declare-bankruptcy/

Can certainly add New York, Rhode Island and California to the list.  Of course, you also have McConnell’s home state.

New Mexico, Delaware, West Virginia (GOP) and Vermont are considered higher risk as well.

https://www.mercatus.org/publications/urban-economics/state-fiscal-rankings

Out of the 13 states with the worst financial problems, only two GOP governors (Baker/Justice).   Shocking that Moscow Mitch doesn’t want to help the areas most decimated so far, right?   A full seven are in the Northeast...all states unlikely to vote for Trump in November.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by caulfield12

[illinilaw08]

40 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

If we force heavy austerity measures on state and local governments by not having the federal government help them out, we are guaranteeing that the economic damage will last for years longer.

 

 

edit: they want us to suffer

 

Local government funds so many things that have a direct impact on the lives of the people who live there: libraries, rec centers, schools, fire, police, roads, plowing, etc.  The idea that cities and states all over the country should file bankruptcy (and I'm a bankruptcy lawyer, for the record) rather than the feds stepping in with relief is insane and will cause significant harm.  Particularly given that this was caused by a PANDEMIC not by mismanagement of funds.

[Kyyle23]

Isn't McConnell's state the equivalent of what they like to call a welfare queen

[RegionSox]

It seems like the Abbott rapid test really isn't that great after all.  According to some studies it has a false negative rate of 15%

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/false-negatives-in-quick-covid-19-test-near-15-percent-study-67451/amp

Edited April 22, 2020 by RegionSox

[StrangeSox]

31 minutes ago, illinilaw08 said:

Local government funds so many things that have a direct impact on the lives of the people who live there: libraries, rec centers, schools, fire, police, roads, plowing, etc.  The idea that cities and states all over the country should file bankruptcy (and I'm a bankruptcy lawyer, for the record) rather than the feds stepping in with relief is insane and will cause significant harm.  Particularly given that this was caused by a PANDEMIC not by mismanagement of funds.

We can "borrow from future generations" to bail out private for profit companies and hand out tens of billions in tax breaks to real estate developers, but we couldn't possibly pay for teachers or paramedics or public health workers.

He is fine with widespread economic suffering for years to come so long as the rich don't have to pay a penny more in taxes.

[Balta1701]

7 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

We can "borrow from future generations" to bail out private for profit companies and hand out tens of billions in tax breaks to real estate developers, but we couldn't possibly pay for teachers or paramedics or public health workers.

He is fine with widespread economic suffering for years to come so long as the rich don't have to pay a penny more in taxes.

Ironically, since the federal reserve is basically running the digital equivalent of a printing press right now, we're borrowing from our strategic reservoir of digital ink, not from the future. 

[ron883]

13 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/04/16/can-the-world-find-a-good-covid-19-vaccine-quickly-enough

The scariest thing I heard today was that if those completely blows up in Africa, it could take a decade to get under control, even with a vaccine in 18-24 months.

That’s why reopening all these southern states just increases the possibility somewhere down the line that an asymptomatic super-spreader travels from the US to Africa and lights the world on fire to the point where it will come and go seasonally (on a global basis) for at least 3-5 years, if not closer to a decade.

Of course, it also depends on which countries and companies succeed with the vaccine...and how philanthropic/altruistic they intend to be.  Hopefully Gates Foundation has one of the successful attempts.

How are we ever going to stop this from being a possibility? Keeping everything closed is simply to flatten the curve and make it so hospitals aren't overwhelmed. Unless there is a vaccine, this possibility will exist. 

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

How are we ever going to stop this from being a possibility? Keeping everything closed is simply to flatten the curve and make it so hospitals aren't overwhelmed. Unless there is a vaccine, this possibility will exist. 

The only way to avoid that is to do what we've been saying repeatedly: 

1. Keep everything closed until your numbers of new cases drop off dramatically, to the point that there are only a handful of community spread cases per day in broad areas. 

2. Dramatically ramp up testing availability, to the point where for every case that does appear you have the ability to test literally thousands of people. Your ability to test determines how low your case numbers need to be per area in #1 and defines my use of the word broad: if you can do 20,000 tests per day in Houston TX, you can't really reopen anything of value until you are seeing under 2 new cases per day in Houston, TX. 

3. Dramatically increase funding and resources for public health departments, who will need to track down thousands of people every time there is a new case that crops up.

4. Figure out how to quarantine everyone who tests positive after exposure, meaning really isolate them for 2+ weeks.

5.  Dramatically increase production of testing equipment, medical supplies, dramatically increase education and outreach to prepare for a massive second wave of this outbreak once things do open up later this year. 

We've already seen this jerk beating relaxed social distancing rules in Asian countries, so even that may not work, but that's the outline for what needs to happen.

[ron883]

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The only way to avoid that is to do what we've been saying repeatedly: 

1. Keep everything closed until your numbers of new cases drop off dramatically, to the point that there are only a handful of community spread cases per day in broad areas. 

2. Dramatically ramp up testing availability, to the point where for every case that does appear you have the ability to test literally thousands of people. Your ability to test determines how low your case numbers need to be per area in #1 and defines my use of the word broad: if you can do 20,000 tests per day in Houston TX, you can't really reopen anything of value until you are seeing under 2 new cases per day in Houston, TX. 

3. Dramatically increase funding and resources for public health departments, who will need to track down thousands of people every time there is a new case that crops up.

4. Figure out how to quarantine everyone who tests positive after exposure, meaning really isolate them for 2+ weeks.

5.  Dramatically increase production of testing equipment, medical supplies, dramatically increase education and outreach to prepare for a massive second wave of this outbreak once things do open up later this year. 

We've already seen this jerk beating relaxed social distancing rules in Asian countries, so even that may not work, but that's the outline for what needs to happen.

None of this will eliminate the virus. It won't stop somebody from the US or China or wherever the hell else from bringing it to Africa. 

[NorthSideSox72]

3 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/22/politics/wisconsin-legislature-sues-to-reopen-state-coronavirus/index.html?utm_content=2020-04-22T14%3A35%3A04&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twCNNp&utm_term=image

 

 

Since this would seem to come around to the courts, here are the relevant statutes at play....

First, the statute that gives the WI Governor authority to declare a public health emergency:

323.10  Declaration by governor. The governor may issue an executive order declaring a state of emergency for the state or any portion of the state if he or she determines that an emergency resulting from a disaster or the imminent threat of a disaster exists. If the governor determines that a public health emergency exists, he or she may issue an executive order declaring a state of emergency related to public health for the state or any portion of the state and may designate the department of health services as the lead state agency to respond to that emergency. If the governor determines that the emergency is related to computer or telecommunication systems, he or she may designate the department of administration as the lead agency to respond to that emergency. A state of emergency shall not exceed 60 days, unless the state of emergency is extended by joint resolution of the legislature. A copy of the executive order shall be filed with the secretary of state. The executive order may be revoked at the discretion of either the governor by executive order or the legislature by joint resolution.

So the legislature could, in theory, override it with a Joint Resolution, at any time. Here is how Wisconsin defines a Joint Resolution:

(39) Joint resolution: A proposal requiring adoption by both houses, to: a) express the opinion of the legislature; b) change joint rules of the legislature; c) propose an amendment to the state constitution; or d) propose or ratify an amendment to the U.S. constitution.

Failing the above, the order will expire within 60 days, which would be May 23rd (it was deployed on March 24th). It can only be EXTENDED by a Joint Resolution of the State Legislature. The open question remaining there is, can Evers just issue a new order immediately following? I'd say that violates the spirit of the law if not the exact word of it.

I'm sort of at a loss why the WI Legislature, if they have even some modicum of party control, doesn't just pass a JR to undo the emergency. Both chambers are heavily Republican. So unless they see a large number of defections within their own party, the lawsuit is 100% unnecessary. And I'm pretty sure the courts will dismiss it since there is a clear legislative remedy already available.

I think this isn't the WI GOP, I think it's a small portion of the WI GOP. Otherwise they'd just vote around it.

 

 

[Balta1701]

5 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

None of this will eliminate the virus. It won't stop somebody from the US or China or wherever the hell else from bringing it to Africa. 

No it won't. But if you can stop outbreaks at 25 or 50 cases, and especially if you keep it out of vulnerable populations, then you can run much of the country with some reasonably thought out restrictions. 

It's the virus sneaking into nursing homes or meatpacking plants or wherever else and sitting undetected for days to weeks that really gets you. The South Koreans, when they see a case, they send off alarm bells to literally everyone in the area through phones, media, in person efforts - to try to track down every possible person they could have come into contact with and test them. If you can do that, then you can reopen things. 

If you have no national strategy to do that, then yea when things reopen you're just going to create the next wave. Given that there is no functioning national government right now, how much confidence do you have in your local and state leaders to run something like that?

[southsider2k5]

52 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Since this would seem to come around to the courts, here are the relevant statutes at play....

First, the statute that gives the WI Governor authority to declare a public health emergency:

323.10  Declaration by governor. The governor may issue an executive order declaring a state of emergency for the state or any portion of the state if he or she determines that an emergency resulting from a disaster or the imminent threat of a disaster exists. If the governor determines that a public health emergency exists, he or she may issue an executive order declaring a state of emergency related to public health for the state or any portion of the state and may designate the department of health services as the lead state agency to respond to that emergency. If the governor determines that the emergency is related to computer or telecommunication systems, he or she may designate the department of administration as the lead agency to respond to that emergency. A state of emergency shall not exceed 60 days, unless the state of emergency is extended by joint resolution of the legislature. A copy of the executive order shall be filed with the secretary of state. The executive order may be revoked at the discretion of either the governor by executive order or the legislature by joint resolution.

So the legislature could, in theory, override it with a Joint Resolution, at any time. Here is how Wisconsin defines a Joint Resolution:

(39) Joint resolution: A proposal requiring adoption by both houses, to: a) express the opinion of the legislature; b) change joint rules of the legislature; c) propose an amendment to the state constitution; or d) propose or ratify an amendment to the U.S. constitution.

Failing the above, the order will expire within 60 days, which would be May 23rd (it was deployed on March 24th). It can only be EXTENDED by a Joint Resolution of the State Legislature. The open question remaining there is, can Evers just issue a new order immediately following? I'd say that violates the spirit of the law if not the exact word of it.

I'm sort of at a loss why the WI Legislature, if they have even some modicum of party control, doesn't just pass a JR to undo the emergency. Both chambers are heavily Republican. So unless they see a large number of defections within their own party, the lawsuit is 100% unnecessary. And I'm pretty sure the courts will dismiss it since there is a clear legislative remedy already available.

I think this isn't the WI GOP, I think it's a small portion of the WI GOP. Otherwise they'd just vote around it.

 

 

It's all BS.  Declarations of emergency, curfews, lockdown orders, etc are all a long tradition in American history.  I mean George Washington himself used this during the revolutionary war and during his Presidency when epidemics broke out of things like Yellow fever and smallpox.  Washington used curfews.  He used travel bans.  He used vaccines.  They have also been used countless times since in places like Hurricane Katrina, the Watts riots, Ferguson, Hurricane MIchael, etc.  They were used during the Flu's of 1918.  The power to create and enforce this rules is 100% clear.  Anyone who denies this has zero idea of both civics and history.

[Dick Allen]

Just continuing to prove there is a tweet for everything, funny he wasn't into LIBERATION back then:

 

Donald J. Trump

 

@realDonaldTrump

· Oct 28, 2014

All the governors are already backing off of the Ebola quarantines. Bad decision that will lead to more mayhem.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Dick Allen

[NorthSideSox72]

48 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It's all BS.  Declarations of emergency, curfews, lockdown orders, etc are all a long tradition in American history.  I mean George Washington himself used this during the revolutionary war and during his Presidency when epidemics broke out of things like Yellow fever and smallpox.  Washington used curfews.  He used travel bans.  He used vaccines.  They have also been used countless times since in places like Hurricane Katrina, the Watts riots, Ferguson, Hurricane MIchael, etc.  They were used during the Flu's of 1918.  The power to create and enforce this rules is 100% clear.  Anyone who denies this has zero idea of both civics and history.

Oh there is no question the orders are lawful and legal. Barr's statement was pure bluster to help out Trump. Nothing burger.

But in Wisconsin, as I pointed out, the legislature COULD override the governor if they had the votes. The fact that they aren't going that way, and instead are filing suit, tells me they don't have the votes. So it's a minority group making a whole lot of noise when they can't do things they want. I can't see anyway the courts override the governor in this case.

 

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

Oh there is no question the orders are lawful and legal. Barr's statement was pure bluster to help out Trump. Nothing burger.

But in Wisconsin, as I pointed out, the legislature COULD override the governor if they had the votes. The fact that they aren't going that way, and instead are filing suit, tells me they don't have the votes. So it's a minority group making a whole lot of noise when they can't do things they want. I can't see anyway the courts override the governor in this case.

 

So, you can't see how the courts in Wisconsin, the same state where 2 weeks ago the state supreme court ordered an election to happen in the middle of a pandemic probably infecting dozens, would also order an end to closures related to the pandemic?

[bmags]

ugh. Really been a hard week. 

over 2000 new cases in illinois. The somewhat good news...we had over 9k test. And that is good news, that means it's essentially the same positive rate.

And obviously in reality we knew we weren't capturing it all. But this is hard. 

[StrangeSox]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/22/us/coronavirus-live-coverage.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage#link-652aa9c3

Coronavirus Live Updates: Doctor Says He Was Removed From Federal Post After Questioning Hydroxychloroquine Treatment

 

Quote

A doctor says he was removed from his federal post after pressing for rigorous vetting of treatments embraced by Trump.

The doctor who led the federal agency involved in developing a coronavirus vaccine said on Wednesday that he was removed from his post after he pressed for a rigorous vetting of a coronavirus treatment embraced by President Trump. The doctor said that science, not “politics and cronyism” must lead the way.

Dr. Rick Bright was abruptly dismissed this week as the director of the Department of Health and Human Services’ Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority, or BARDA, and as the deputy assistant secretary for preparedness and response.

Instead, he was given a narrower job at the National Institutes of Health. “I believe this transfer was in response to my insistence that the government invest the billions of dollars allocated by Congress to address the Covid-19 pandemic into safe and scientifically vetted solutions, and not in drugs, vaccines and other technologies that lack scientific merit,” he said in a statement to The Times’s Maggie Haberman.

“I am speaking out because to combat this deadly virus, science — not politics or cronyism — has to lead the way,” he said.

The White House declined to comment. A spokeswoman for Alex Azar, the HHS secretary, did not immediately respond to an email seeking comment. The medical publication Stat reported on Tuesday that Dr. Bright had clashed with Bob Kadlec, the assistant health secretary for preparedness and response.

Dr. Bright, who noted that his entire career had been spent in vaccine development both in and outside of government, has led BARDA since 2016.

In the statement, he said: “My professional background has prepared me for a moment like this — to confront and defeat a deadly virus that threatens Americans and people around the globe. To this point, I have led the government’s efforts to invest in the best science available to combat the Covid-19 pandemic.

“Unfortunately, this resulted in clashes with H.H.S. political leadership, including criticism for my proactive efforts to invest early into vaccines and supplies critical to saving American lives. I also resisted efforts to fund potentially dangerous drugs promoted by those with political connections,” he said.

Dr. Bright, who is a career official and not a political appointee, pointed specifically to the initial efforts to make chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine widely available before it was scientifically tested for efficacy with the coronavirus.

“Specifically, and contrary to misguided directives, I limited the broad use of chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine, promoted by the administration as a panacea, but which clearly lack scientific merit,” he said.

“While I am prepared to look at all options and to think ‘outside the box’ for effective treatments, I rightly resisted efforts to provide an unproven drug on demand to the American public,” Dr. Bright said, describing what ultimately happened: “I insisted that these drugs be provided only to hospitalized patients with confirmed Covid-19 while under the supervision of a physician.

“These drugs have potentially serious risks associated with them, including increased mortality observed in some recent studies in patients with Covid-19.

“Sidelining me in the middle of this pandemic and placing politics and cronyism ahead of science puts lives at risk and stunts national efforts to safely and effectively address this urgent public health crisis,” Dr. Bright said.

“I will request that the inspector general of the Department of Health and Human Services investigate the manner in which this administration has politicized the work of BARDA and has pressured me and other conscientious scientists to fund companies with political connections and efforts that lack scientific merit,” he said. “Rushing blindly towards unproven drugs can be disastrous and result in countless more deaths. Science, in service to the health and safety of the American people, must always trump politics.”

 

[NorthSideSox72]

32 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So, you can't see how the courts in Wisconsin, the same state where 2 weeks ago the state supreme court ordered an election to happen in the middle of a pandemic probably infecting dozens, would also order an end to closures related to the pandemic?

Entirely different scenario. There you have election laws separate and complicating the situation, a governor who asked the legislature to stop it because they have statutory authority to do so, and then an order the governor gave that he himself previously said wasn't legally patent. In fact it's kind of a mirror of the same case, except here the law clearly protects the governor, as opposed to with the election it being delineated to the legislature.