COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[StrangeSox]

12 minutes ago, bmags said:

I want to throw some of the opposite out.

While the federal government has been often terrible here in the places i think it can make the biggest impact (purchasing power, borrowing)

- State and local governments have been doing quite well in addressing the pandemic, including some very ambitious and amazing work to get additional PPE and testing set-up. 

- The American people have answered the call, doing a very good job as a whole of staying inside. We can get upset all we want about the isolated stories, but in the times i've had to drive around - chicago is empty. My dad is in raleigh. Had a march of hundreds being idiots - but raleigh is empty. My mom is in SC, should be heart of the antagonistic audience right? Her town is empty. People have been sewing their own masks, buying medical workers lunches, donating to causes. 

- The federal reserve has been doing everything possible and incredibly dynamic to address anything within its power to ensure this does not only not become a financial crisis, but work to get money into hands of organizations that typically don't interact with the Fed. You also have the fed pushing HARD on the fed government to inject more money to cover the losses, ruining arguments that worry about borrowing now.

- Congress deployed trillions within a month. It isn't enough, and could have been designed better, but in 2008 it took a year to fully respond and it was much less robust. It has taken a while to get money out, but that isn't just a US problem. 

- Tech companies did a pretty remarkable job to protect their workers and sound alarms of the severity before many, and may have saved many in california. Connectivity has been remarkable despite the surge. As a whole, companies have had priorities in right place, and it's fine to argue against those that have not. 

It's not enough and people should demand more because more can be given, a lot more in terms of resources to help people and businesses recover.

obviously, the admin has been garbage and antagonistic to much of this work, but a lot of this country has mobilized very positively.

Counterpoint: we could have done much, much more and chose not to. Millions will suffer and the damage will last for years because of the choices made over the past 8 weeks and the choices we'll make over the coming months. I don't think we should make excuses because we're a little bit quicker than the  woefully inadequate federal response to previous economic disaster that doomed millions to unnecessary suffering. We are still a very long way from doing what we are more than capable of in this country but are simply choosing not to do.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Counterpoint: we could have done much, much more and chose not to. Millions will suffer and the damage will last for years because of the choices made over the past 8 weeks and the choices we'll make over the coming months. I don't think we should make excuses because we're a little bit quicker than the  woefully inadequate federal response to previous economic disaster that doomed millions to unnecessary suffering. We are still a very long way from doing what we are more than capable of in this country but are simply choosing not to do.

 

 

The europeans will be able to thank the Fed.

[StrangeSox]

Ok.

Who will the tens of millions of unemployed Americans be able to thank once UI runs out (or their states force them to choose between their health or starvation like Iowa)? Who will the millions of state and local government employees be able to thank when they lose their jobs due to forced austerity measures?

We have the economic capability to help everyone in this country who needs it, right now. We're (or really, Congress and the Executive branches) are choosing not to. They are choosing to let millions of Americans suffer and many of them to die needlessly. We've blown past Great Recession unemployment levels and are heading towards Great Depression levels. If we don't get an adequate federal response, this damage will last for years to come. So far, the message from DC is "eh, we're pretty much done. no more money" beyond some small, ineffectual ideas like a payroll tax cut. Or absurdly damaging ideas like "idk just let states go bankrupt."

 

edit: The Fed response has been adequate but their powers are limited here. We need massive federal programs and the federal government backstopping/funding state and local level measures. I do not see many reasons to be optimistic we will get those things.

 

edit: for reference, at the worst point of the Great Recession, we hit about 10% unemployment. We're already at 20%, and there will likely be several more weeks of 1M+ unemployment filings. The Great Depression topped out at ~25% unemployment. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

But, good news on the medical front!

 

[bmags]

6 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Ok.

Who will the tens of millions of unemployed Americans be able to thank once UI runs out (or their states force them to choose between their health or starvation like Iowa)? Who will the millions of state and local government employees be able to thank when they lose their jobs due to forced austerity measures?

We have the economic capability to help everyone in this country who needs it, right now. We're (or really, Congress and the Executive branches) are choosing not to. They are choosing to let millions of Americans suffer and many of them to die needlessly. We've blown past Great Recession unemployment levels and are heading towards Great Depression levels. If we don't get an adequate federal response, this damage will last for years to come. So far, the message from DC is "eh, we're pretty much done. no more money" beyond some small, ineffectual ideas like a payroll tax cut. Or absurdly damaging ideas like "idk just let states go bankrupt."

 

edit: The Fed response has been adequate but their powers are limited here. We need massive federal programs and the federal government backstopping/funding state and local level measures. I do not see many reasons to be optimistic we will get those things.

We don't really know what the effects will be yet. America chose to allow UI benefits be its mechanism for now and that may end up being foolish. But more than half on unemployment are making more than they did on their jobs when this money can get out. That is different from the great depression, where it didn't exist until 1935, and it didn't pay people more. And in the great depression, it had a fed that didn't provide enough money.

 

[turnin' two]

12 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

I have to re-convince myself every day that those who are unwilling to listen will one day, eventually, realize the truth of what is happening to their country.

Yes, I realize the odds of Greg reading Noam Chomsky are probably 1 in 10,000.  Perhaps less.  And there’s not going to be any hardcore Trump supporters changing their minds, that much is certain.

But it’s worth it to me if just a FEW become more open-minded.

I have zero illusions about Joe Biden even being able to reset the world back to November of 2016.   I was a high school senior in 1988 back when he first ran and I participated in the Iowa caucus.   I didn’t like him then, not do I particularly like him now.

But something has to change, eventually.  

The country can’t keep going on this way and continue to be a shining beacon for the rest of the world, the greatest remaining hope for the future.

 

Maybe it doesn’t matter.  That’s fine, too.   Next Thursday I have to do the nose swab and nucleic acid test here in Wuhan despite not going outside once since January 20th.   Every teacher and student needs to do that before we can all go back to school on May 11th.   Then my life will finally return to the new normal and I won’t have nearly as much free time.   I will spend an hour each way going back and forth to work.  So you can relax and turn your focus to bigger problems in the world than me.

Good luck.

Didn't mean it as a slight or insult.  It was intended as a lighthearted jest.  Sorry if I did it in the wrong way.

[turnin' two]

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

It is time to have some common sense in the current political debate. But you won't get that as long as Trump is in the White House. People are dying by the tens of thousands and whistle dick Jared is talking about all the successes. Why is he even near a position of power? He is not even a functioning adult.

And Democrats? It is time to find an alternative to Biden. Instead of endorsements, they should be looking for another nominee. Way to go, Hillary.

The American political system is letting us down during the biggest crisis in our history. I don't care about the politics of it. We are up against it. This is bigger than Trump, McConnell or Biden. I am starting to think that McConnell is worse than Trump. That man is corrupt, as corrupt as anyone can be.

People keep saying this.  It isn't remotely close to true.  This country, has several time, been on the brink of not existing. This kind of hyperbole helps people to dismiss that this is a serious crisis.  

 

[Dick Allen]

In the middle of a pandemic where the death toll went over 60k yesterday, this is what Trump tweeted about:

Michael Flynn

CNN

MSNBC

Brian Williams

Don Lemon

Joe Scarbourough

Sweden

Roger Stone

His poll numbers

Jim Comey

Hillary Clinton's campaign.

 

My God this is insane.

[Texsox]

He's playing to a bigger than we imagine base. I would argue he is the best political strategist in my life time. 

[Dick Allen]

8 minutes ago, Texsox said:

He's playing to a bigger than we imagine base. I would argue he is the best political strategist in my life time. 

If he were the best, he wouldn't be in this mess.

[pcq]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

It is so depressing.

At this point politics is not the issue. Donald's behavior and comments show he is not up to the task. He may not even want the job. 

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I want to throw some of the opposite out.

While the federal government has been often terrible here in the places i think it can make the biggest impact (purchasing power, borrowing)

- State and local governments have been doing quite well in addressing the pandemic, including some very ambitious and amazing work to get additional PPE and testing set-up. 

- The American people have answered the call, doing a very good job as a whole of staying inside. We can get upset all we want about the isolated stories, but in the times i've had to drive around - chicago is empty. My dad is in raleigh. Had a march of hundreds being idiots - but raleigh is empty. My mom is in SC, should be heart of the antagonistic audience right? Her town is empty. People have been sewing their own masks, buying medical workers lunches, donating to causes. 

- The federal reserve has been doing everything possible and incredibly dynamic to address anything within its power to ensure this does not only not become a financial crisis, but work to get money into hands of organizations that typically don't interact with the Fed. You also have the fed pushing HARD on the fed government to inject more money to cover the losses, ruining arguments that worry about borrowing now.

- Congress deployed trillions within a month. It isn't enough, and could have been designed better, but in 2008 it took a year to fully respond and it was much less robust. It has taken a while to get money out, but that isn't just a US problem. 

- Tech companies did a pretty remarkable job to protect their workers and sound alarms of the severity before many, and may have saved many in california. Connectivity has been remarkable despite the surge. As a whole, companies have had priorities in right place, and it's fine to argue against those that have not. 

It's not enough and people should demand more because more can be given, a lot more in terms of resources to help people and businesses recover.

obviously, the admin has been garbage and antagonistic to much of this work, but a lot of this country has mobilized very positively.

This is all fair. 

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, Tony said:

EXACTLY. Ok, lets just say for the sake of being bat-shit crazy this was all a hoax to someone hurt the President.......who was smart enough to organize this all and get China, Italy, and basically the rest of the world together to "organize" this setup? George Soros? Bill Gates? 

Come on...

Yep.  If you want to convince me that this was a plot to get Trump, tell me why both allies and enemies went along with it.  Then we can talk conspiracy.  For the record, Putin has even endorsed Trump, and again for his re-election.

[southsider2k5]

46 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

People keep saying this.  It isn't remotely close to true.  This country, has several time, been on the brink of not existing. This kind of hyperbole helps people to dismiss that this is a serious crisis.  

 

There is enough imaginary hyperbole that this kind of a post on a message board is 100% meaningless.

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, Texsox said:

He's playing to a bigger than we imagine base. I would argue he is the best political strategist in my life time. 

I spent a lot of my life convinced that Bill Clinton was the most effective con-artist of my lifetime.  I now have a new #1.

[turnin' two]

13 minutes ago, pcq said:

At this point politics is not the issue. Donald's behavior and comments show he is not up to the task. He may not even want the job. 

Doubt it.  He loves the attention of his adoring fans.  

[NorthSideSox72]

2 hours ago, The Beast said:

It’s an argument I acknowledge, but one I don’t necessarily agree with.

 

lol numbers are numbers man, this isn't a subjective thing. Sweden's fatality rates is many times higher than the other countries in Scandanavia, and substantially higher than the US rate as well. You can agree or disagree on the approach, but the numbers are there whether you like them or not. It is simply reality.

 

46 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

People keep saying this.  It isn't remotely close to true.  This country, has several time, been on the brink of not existing. This kind of hyperbole helps people to dismiss that this is a serious crisis.  

 

I agree. Certainly it might be the deepest crisis the country has faced in the lifetimes of some younger folks, that is true. But this "ever" thing reflects a very poor understanding of US history.

 

[turnin' two]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

There is enough imaginary hyperbole that this kind of a post on a message board is 100% meaningless.

Except that people seem to believe it.

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Except that people seem to believe it.

Sure.  And they also believe that this is a democratic media hoax.  A an exaggeration versus an outright lie.  If you are believing the big one, the small one doesn't really matter.

[Texsox]

26 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

If he were the best, he wouldn't be in this mess.

He's president of the US. He can be in a mess like this and his base LOVES him. LOVES him. They will fight tooth and nail for him. The loyalty he has created is beyond anything I've seen in my lifetime. He wasn't exaggerating when he said he could shoot someone. 

[gatnom]

3 minutes ago, Texsox said:

He's president of the US. He can be in a mess like this and his base LOVES him. LOVES him. They will fight tooth and nail for him. The loyalty he has created is beyond anything I've seen in my lifetime. He wasn't exaggerating when he said he could shoot someone. 

I agree. The reality is that people are irrational by nature, and he plays this really well to his advantage. His critics feel great when they criticize him and his supporters. His supporters double down because they feel they and their leader are being unfairly attacked. Thus reinforcing the loop.

In essence, by making everything about him, he can move every issue from "how can we solve this problem" to "how can we signal that we are better politically than the other side." Good politics for sure. Good leadership? Well...

[turnin' two]

28 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Sure.  And they also believe that this is a democratic media hoax.  A an exaggeration versus an outright lie.  If you are believing the big one, the small one doesn't really matter.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't point it out.  

But it really isn't worth this much conversation I guess.  Its just a silly thing to say at a time where a lot of silly things are being said.  So I guess you're right. 

[Dick Allen]

25 minutes ago, Texsox said:

He's president of the US. He can be in a mess like this and his base LOVES him. LOVES him. They will fight tooth and nail for him. The loyalty he has created is beyond anything I've seen in my lifetime. He wasn't exaggerating when he said he could shoot someone. 

Right, but those people aren't the majority, and a lot of people who do kiss his ass, I am sure can't stand him, but chose party over country and the R, even though like the rest of Trump, is fake in his case, rules.

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

It honestly never occurred to me that The Walking Dead might have started because boomers couldn't get their haircuts

So we think it's important for mental health and you are a champion of mental health. Oh that's right, only for certain people? So is mental health important or not? Can you answer? 

My response is appropriate by the way because you started this "altercation" with your insensitive response. We're offering solutions to business owners troubles. Certain amount of people in the shops, six feet apart at all times, holding masks to face to block transmission. Our solutions don't matter right? Stay in at all costs to the economy and mental health.

Edited April 30, 2020 by greg775