COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

It also turns out that there does appear to have been a notable change in the protein spikes where the virus attaches to the cell, according to a paper (Pre-peer-review) available on biorXiv yesterday. While that doesn't necessarily guarantee that this version is more virulent, they cite several examples of places where the classical Chinese variant was the first one circulating and then it was rapidly surpassed in number by the newer Italian variant, including New York City. So it's possible that some of the early cases are coming from a slightly less aggressive strain.

Is the timeline sufficient to where it would have been in the midwest around mid December?  That is about the start of the actual spread in China from what I had read before.

[Jerksticks]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Is the timeline sufficient to where it would have been in the midwest around mid December?  That is about the start of the actual spread in China from what I had read before.

https://www.livescience.com/first-case-coronavirus-found.html

Well according to this you had mid November as a first reported case but that would be after a certain amount of asymptomatic spreading time.   And then 1-5 new cases popping up every day after that Nov. 19 case.  What’s of course never mentioned, is how much asymptomatic spreading was going on even at that time.   So realistically it was flying around the world a little bit late November, somewhat more in December, and probably quite substantially in January, wildfire in February?  That seems decently realistic to me.  
 

You just can’t underestimate how many people never show symptoms, since we don’t know that number at all.  But they were more than likely flying all over the world sandwiched in planes and airports and trains.  
 

That’s why I’m always saying it’s fucking everywhere.  It just makes more sense based on our response.  They knew it was everywhere.  It was probably too late for countries to contain even around New Years.  You can get to that conclusions with sound logic just as easily as other conclusions that are more popular. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by Jerksticks

[greg775]

5 hours ago, turnin' two said:

And for all the crap people give Greg about wanting to get a haircut...

thanks turnin, i'm still holding out. My hair is long and itchy. And I feel like I did in high school with long long hair. I know where I can get a bootleg haircut but greg is abiding by the rules. Even tho politicians aren't. I hate washing my hair now. It takes a lot longer.

I can't believe how long I've been without human contact. I have to talk on the phone a lot so I don't notice it as much as I would otherwise, but I never see human beings anymore. I'd always go on lunch dates; dinner with peeps who I'd go out with. Coffee, regular Monday luncheons with pals. Now nothing and nobody seems to care about my mental health. Again, six weeks ago it's all we cared about in America: mental health of all people at all times, all groups. People lambasting me for that incident at my Subway, etc. Now real mental health issues for MANY Americans and crickets: Suck it up and wear a mask buddy and shut up.

[greg775]

5 hours ago, The Beast said:

Greg, the sky isn’t falling and you are not out of options! Look!

 

thanks. i just need to buy some bandanas and rubber bands.

[greg775]

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

It comes back to “reasonable standard of care.”

Would a jury find such actions defensible...in hindsight?

We don’t have all the mothers of the world demanding speed limits should be lowered across the board to 30 MPH to save lives, do we?  

We do have limits on assault weapons, drunk driving and compel drivers to wear seat belts.  We do have social norms that also impact behaviors, such as the stigmas related to cigarette smoking.  We haven’t banned cigarettes, tobacco or even Big Gulps, but we realize the consequences of our actions.

Due to the lack of testing available in the US, not sure we can say the same thing about Covid.  There’s reasonably unaware, and then intentionally or blissfully unaware.  

If you had (unprotected) sexual relationships with 10+ people, and refused to get tested...and passed on HIV/AIDS, is that so much better than having unprotected sex knowing you have tested positive?   Maybe.   But where does the first person’s behavior go from “reasonable” to reckless or endangering?  

The same shades of grey exist with the mask and overall lack of testing situation.  Can one sue someone because the President has consistently maintained “there are plenty of tests”...they made no effort to do so, and it can be proved in hindsight or retroactively how many others they infected?

Caulfield I consider you a good person and good guy and smart person. Hence the question to someone who lives in China. Do you get the feeling a.) Chinese people feel like they are controlled and harassed by the government? Do they live in fear of the regime? And b.) I personally feel China is America's enemy, a vicious enemy, a horrible enemy that would love to invade the USA when applicable and take over the world basically -- maybe get in some agreement in Russia after they take over the USA, then work on Russia later and take over there. My Q is: Do you agree with my take? Living there, do you sense they are planning a coup so to speak? Do you think they despise us and want to reign over the world? Thanks Caulfield. I respect your takes.

p.s. Bonus question: Did they create this virus on purpose? Basically they have a lot more people than we do and can afford to lose population with a tyranist regime. Meanwhile, they are totally weakening America via the virus and making us mean to each other and very vulnerable.

Edited May 7, 2020 by greg775

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Caulfield I consider you a good person and good guy and smart person. Hence the question to someone who lives in China. Do you get the feeling a.) Chinese people feel like they are controlled and harassed by the government? Do they live in fear of the regime? And b.) I personally feel China is America's enemy, a vicious enemy, a horrible enemy that would love to invade the USA when applicable and take over the world basically -- maybe get in some agreement in Russia after they take over the USA, then work on Russia later and take over there. My Q is: Do you agree with my take? Living there, do you sense they are planning a coup so to speak? Do you think they despise us and want to reign over the world? Thanks Caulfield. I respect your takes.

p.s. Bonus question: Did they create this virus on purpose? Basically they have a lot more people than we do and can afford to lose population with a tyranist regime. Meanwhile, they are totally weakening America via the virus and making us mean to each other and very vulnerable.

We are doing that to ourselves...self inflected.  Can you imagine Reagan, JFK, Truman, Teddy Roosevelt, FDR, Lincoln agreeing with this idea?
 

The Chinese system is based on maintaining control and allegiance to party...but hasn’t really been outward facing until the 2008 Olympics and 2010 World Expo.  There has been blood in the water ever since 9/11 and the wars in Iraq/Afghanistan (in terms of international consensus on US), but the current preference for China is to continue to increase “world market share” through trade and diplomacy...massive loans/development projects in Africa and Asia/Middle East, transforming from USD to RMB denominated transactions, competing with petrodollar, Belt and Road Initiative, etc.

Of course, if we had reacted just two weeks more quickly, we could or might have saved the majority of those who have already lost their lives.  Unless they could have predicted a totally incompetent US response (certainly arguable), they never could have anticipated the damage to the US and American economies would be so extensive.   Keep in mind, they’ve wiped out their #1/#2 export markets (EU/US), so how is that to their advantage if they have nobody left to sell to?  India is not their friend, either.  More a budding rival.

Now their supply chains are under threat....and countries are looking to bring back domestic production of PPE and especially drugs/medicine.  None of these are positive developments for China. 

Edited May 7, 2020 by caulfield12

[greg775]

8 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Isn’t it interesting?  Almost everybody I know got the flu this year.  I haven’t had it in 15 years. Same with my wife.  Almost killed her this year but she’s immune-compromised.  Two uncles hospitalized with pneumonia in Jan-Feb, 1 in Texas, 1 in Chicago.  The father of the lady in the office next to me had her dad die of pneumonia in Jan, she’s convinced it was Covid.  All my in-laws in Texas got sick AF mid-late Feb.  

Not saying any of it was Covid either, but looking back, it was the first year I remember pretty much everybody I know telling me they were sick AF.  Didn’t think anything of it at the time.  Still no way to know anything.   
 

What’s even MORE interesting...say you go full crazy and say “tons of these anecdotes we’re all hearing of or personally lived through were Covid in late Dec-Feb, the US response to the virus actually makes a bit of sense.  
 

But who knows.  Despite all the testing #s, death numbers etc...nobody knows shit.

 

I had the worst cough I've ever had. But I really don't think I ever had a fever. I had something. 

[greg775]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

 Unless they could have predicted a totally incompetent US response (certainly arguable), they never could have anticipated the damage to the US and American economies would be so extensive.   Keep in mind, they’ve wiped out their #1/#2 export markets (EU/US), so how is that to their advantage if they have nobody left to sell to?  India is not their friend, either.  More a budding rival.

Great post. I liked it. My answer here would be it's to their advantage because if they want to attack us with troops on our mainland, it behooves them to have a totally weakened USA. My take is they are a danger in terms of attacking us with germ warfare, then physical war. If they win I don't want to be alive and be tortured by them. Just my tale that they may desire to take over the USA in terms of ruling our people. I was wondering if you felt they had world domination in mind from living there.

[bmags]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-05-07/coronavirus-closes-meat-plants-threatens-food-supply?sref=vuYGislZ

Quote

By late March, Rafael Benjamin’s family was pleading with him to stay home from work even if it cost him his job. He promised he would, but not until after April 10. That would be his work anniversary, his 17th at Cargill Inc.’s pork and beef processing plant in Hazleton, Pa.—a milestone for topping up his pension when he retired in October.

Quote

 On March 25 one of his daughters gave him a face mask to wear at the plant, where he operated boxing and loading equipment near the entrance and was often the first person to greet arriving co-workers. “He was always so respectful,” a shiftmate says. Two days later, Benjamin told his kids a supervisor had ordered him to remove the mask because it was creating unnecessary fears among plant employees.

Quote

Benjamin was admitted to the intensive care unit and spent his work anniversary on a ventilator. He died on April 19. The next day the plant reopened after a two-week cleaning.

And his children would not be able to be by his side and likely still have not had a funeral.

The article details how while meatpacking plants are very susceptible, most in Europe and many in US that showed concern were able to keep outbreaks at bay. 

These companies that were ignorant of worker health will be protected by the federal government from liability. 

The federal government is not opting to allow federal assistance for funerals despite policy available to do so. And I just hope whatever version of this guys pension was left is transferable.

 

[Kyyle23]

 

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, greg775 said:

Great post. I liked it. My answer here would be it's to their advantage because if they want to attack us with troops on our mainland, it behooves them to have a totally weakened USA. My take is they are a danger in terms of attacking us with germ warfare, then physical war. If they win I don't want to be alive and be tortured by them. Just my tale that they may desire to take over the USA in terms of ruling our people. I was wondering if you felt they had world domination in mind from living there.

No, this isn’t Red Dawn.

Too much distance to cover the entire Pacific against our Navy, Air Force and defense systems.

What good does having a huge conventional army (they’ve been cutting back dramatically the last decade in size, but much more nimble and fast strike, high tech missile systems) with tactical nukes?

Their planes are mostly hybrid copies of American and Soviet fighter jets.   They have 1 1/2 aircraft carriers.

Nobody wants to capture or torture you.  Whiteman AFB for stealth bombers the closest obvious target to you.

Their only real ally is Russia, and that’s a practical, pragmatic relationship versus genuine trust and respect.

 

Otoh, the US attacking China could go either way.   What would we do as “winners,” anyway?  Our nation building record since Korea and Vietnam is pretty miserable across the board.

[caulfield12]

52 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

 

Breaking news:   Robert Stewart just named Georgia state director of “Black Voices for Trump”  

[Texsox]

14 hours ago, turnin' two said:

And for all the crap people give Greg about wanting to get a haircut...

You can't feel good if you don't look good. 

[bmags]

If US and China go to war it will be a proxy war as ever.

[Texsox]

14 hours ago, greg775 said:

What do you all think of the Chicago mayor breaking the rules. She gets a haircut to look good on TV. We can't.

How bout this dumbass in Britain, one of the leading experts on corona. Brings his mistress over WHEN HE HAD CORONA.

And you are mad at Americans who don't wear masks??? How bout the New York official going to the gym?? People watch this video and don't dismiss it just because it's FOX. This is a disgrace. Greg is not a disgrace. How bout the double standards going on with politicians????? Watch this!     And by the way, Dick Allen, Kansas is a bit different from fricking chicago.

 

Well bless your heart it's always like that, the rich and powerful make and break the rules. But after our economy craters by the end of the year we'll all be too poor to pay attention. So sit down on that cracker barrel and let Ol' Tex help you out. It's easy any mule's tail can catch cockle-burrs. 

Fight the system Greg775, don't wear a mask. Stick it to the man and be like the man (or the mayor). Those internet sites pretending to sell masks are all crooked as a dog's hind leg. Once you give them a credit card they know more ways to take your money than a lawyer.  And for God and country sake, head to Texas for a haircut and a gun. Tex will chamber of commerce you a nice salon, coffee shop, park bench, and a good dealer. We got riots and chaos coming with all the meat shortages. Until you get armed, protect yourself by wearing a helmet. 

If you really do want a mask you know we're here to help you but Greg775 has to take the first step. As Tex always says you can't get lard unless you boil the hog. Now I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you so don't be looking like a goat on astroturf. First off don't bother asking the people not wearing a mask advice on where to buy a mask. That's like asking a dog with no legs to come. Instead, invite the maskless to come with you to find masks. Lead them to the promise land. Have signs printed up Greg775 and the Search for the Holy Mask. We know these masks can be as scarce as a virgin in a cathouse but walk up to ever person who is wearing a mask there in K-land and ask them where they bought them. Perhaps video the conversation and post it here so we can help you understand what they are saying? Of course it is difficult to understand what they are saying with everyone talking through a mask. Imagine leading all those maskless people who did not know where to find a mask to masks. You'll be famous, like the Pied Piper. Then when you are running with the big dogs and  livin' in high cotton you will be allowed a haircut and access to the secret meat lockers that Jarrod has established throughout the country. 

And if that ain't fact God's a possum. 

[Dick Allen]

If there was no election this year, does anyone think states would actually be re-opening now?

[StrangeSox]

Something my wife pointed out and that we're already seeing in other states like Ohio--in the phased reopening approaches, schools and daycares are still closed until we reach Phase 4, which has pretty high hurdles. But businesses are opening back up in Phase 3. How are all of these people supposed to go back to work with no childcare options available?

I'm not sure about Illinois, but in Ohio and other states not being able to go to work because you don't have anyone to watch your kids would count as quitting your job, meaning you'd be ineligible for UI. You'd go to $0 income. We still seem to be making the absolute worst policy decisions that punish the working class.

[tray]

Fox News talking heads have been pining to open up the economy.  I find that their decision to focus on  that in the midst of a pandemic to be kind of strange, especially  given the average age of Fox viewers.   OTOH  maybe old Fox viewers just want the young uns out there working to get their retirement accounts back up and to get Trump elected.

Really the focus should be on halting the spread of the pandemic and seeking a vaccine or treatment, but it is an election year so we can't even unite behind a strategy to deal with this.

[southsider2k5]

3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

 

This is unreal, yet par for the history of the VA all at the same time.  I think every single person in the country needs to read this tweet.  2200 VA employees have tested COVID positive.  Two thousand, two hundred.  The people caring for our vets again are woefully understaffed, under-equipped and underfunded.  Where is all that respect for Veterans at again?

 

[southsider2k5]

Also this...

 

 

[NorthSideSox72]

4 hours ago, bmags said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-05-07/coronavirus-closes-meat-plants-threatens-food-supply?sref=vuYGislZ

And his children would not be able to be by his side and likely still have not had a funeral.

The article details how while meatpacking plants are very susceptible, most in Europe and many in US that showed concern were able to keep outbreaks at bay. 

These companies that were ignorant of worker health will be protected by the federal government from liability. 

The federal government is not opting to allow federal assistance for funerals despite policy available to do so. And I just hope whatever version of this guys pension was left is transferable.

 

That plant and Cargill are going to lose a lot of money in a lawsuit soon. The supervisor told people not to wear the mask because it created fear? Come on.

 

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

If there was no election this year, does anyone think states would actually be re-opening now?

I actually don't think it would be much different. This isn't just a problem of election calculus. Trump has a hard time focusing on anything other than the shiny object right in front of him, incapable of thinking long-term. So he was never going to focus on re-opening in a way that makes the economic recovery smoother and better later. He wants results NOW, even though those results will be shitty. It's his nature. The upcoming election probably adds extra stress, but ultimately doesn't make much difference I think.

 

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

Something my wife pointed out and that we're already seeing in other states like Ohio--in the phased reopening approaches, schools and daycares are still closed until we reach Phase 4, which has pretty high hurdles. But businesses are opening back up in Phase 3. How are all of these people supposed to go back to work with no childcare options available?

I'm not sure about Illinois, but in Ohio and other states not being able to go to work because you don't have anyone to watch your kids would count as quitting your job, meaning you'd be ineligible for UI. You'd go to $0 income. We still seem to be making the absolute worst policy decisions that punish the working class.

Yeah this is a HUGE problem. People like my wife and I are lucky to have jobs we can mostly do from home, but for those who can't, they are going to be absolutely screwed when companies open and schools / day care don't.

By the way this yet another example of Trump unwittingly shooting himself in the foot politically (and the sycophant governors in tow). The suburbs and ex-urbs in the Rust Belt are where this election is going to be won or lost for him. And this situation will decimate that exact set of voters, not to mention his own deeper support base in smaller towns in those states. So it is awful for people for the obvious reason AND politically stupid.

 

[bmags]

1 minute ago, NorthSideSox72 said:

That plant and Cargill are going to lose a lot of money in a lawsuit soon. The supervisor told people not to wear the mask because it created fear? Come on.

 

I actually don't think it would be much different. This isn't just a problem of election calculus. Trump has a hard time focusing on anything other than the shiny object right in front of him, incapable of thinking long-term. So he was never going to focus on re-opening in a way that makes the economic recovery smoother and better later. He wants results NOW, even though those results will be shitty. It's his nature. The upcoming election probably adds extra stress, but ultimately doesn't make much difference I think.

 

Yeah this is a HUGE problem. People like my wife and I are lucky to have jobs we can mostly do from home, but for those who can't, they are going to be absolutely screwed when companies open and schools / day care don't.

By the way this yet another example of Trump unwittingly shooting himself in the foot politically (and the sycophant governors in tow). The suburbs and ex-urbs in the Rust Belt are where this election is going to be won or lost for him. And this situation will decimate that exact set of voters, not to mention his own deeper support base in smaller towns in those states. So it is awful for people for the obvious reason AND politically stupid.

 

Law suits are meh. They'll declare bankruptcy, equity holders will get paid out, managers will probably get raises to stay, workers that were put in danger laid off.

Criminal suits would be better.

[NorthSideSox72]

15 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Also this...

 

 

So it;'s funny, on Monday I reached out to the summer day camp our kids are both signed up for (North Shore YMCA), as well as the overnight camp the older kid is set for in July. Both said they were waiting for CDC guidance on camps and the like that was due to come out May 1st but didn't. Of course the state has to allow them to open, but they wanted the CDC guidance to hopefully make good decisions even IF the state said yes, as well as knowing what safety precautions to follow.

And now I know why the didn't receive it. Because TrumpCo wants so badly for things to open that they will kill anything going out the door that indicates any hesitation whatsoever for things to be open quickly.

So infuriating.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Law suits are meh. They'll declare bankruptcy, equity holders will get paid out, managers will probably get raises to stay, workers that were put in danger laid off.

Criminal suits would be better.

It would be very hard to make a criminal case here, unless the supervisor in this case had disobeyed actual law on masks if any, or maybe if the supervisor defied corporate directives for safety. Barring either of those being the case, there is nothing to prosecute.

 

[Texsox]

What percentage of his base can be flipped? I'm trying to remember now what regular voter chose Trump over Hillary. It seemed like he only received the fringe votes. I'm seriously thinking he keeps the disenfranchised, racist, rebel flag waving crowd and the hell no I'm never ever voting for a Dem crowd. Add in the Crooked Hillary to Creepy Joe voters. While on one hand I'm thinking no way we do this again, I don't see an easy win.