COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[michelangelosmonkey]

8 hours ago, greg775 said:

Nice post, Caulfield. You da man. I read it all and liked it. I also dislike Trump for reasons I've written before (I know you read me so you know my stance). However (oops, this is where I get lumped in with Trump lovers and FOX viewers) I wish you'd "consider" blaming some of these governors as well.

I dare folks to read this and comment and at least consider this guy's concerns. How bout the governors who gladly accept churches raising money for starving people and donating food, but won't work with them on opening for church services. Oh, it's fine they go deliver stuff and break social distancing rules, but work with them on re-opening? Nah.   I respect u Caulfield. Hope u stay comfortable as can be over in China, sir. https://www.peterhaas.org/is-the-cure-killing-us-how-history-can-help-us-rethink-our-covid-response/?fbclid=IwAR0LOIjqwzH5pFdlfMWChr5TodJZerNcBGiBni0damrZY6GP2-zvbcMx04o

I'm bothered by all the blaming.  This is NOT Trump's fault...or the governors.  This is nature that has come up with a new pitch that the batters haven't been able to figure out yet.  Fernando Valenzuela's screwball in 1981.  To listen to the president'S advice to "try to swing late" and shout WHAT AN ASSHOLE...then he says "go the other way with the pitch" and you shout "IDIOT...don't you know batting coaches agree that is the dumbest thing ever".   Though really the batting coaches have no real answer either.   I hate Trump's style but I'm also so sick of everything he does being criticized.  90% of all news stories since his inauguration??  A virus comes along and you guys with perfect hindsight says "we should have done this" or "we should have done that".  But who knew that this wasn't SARS or MERS or Swine Flu?  It was outrageous to put major travel restrictions on China in early February but that proved correct.  His being positive in press conferences in a very scary situation for the simple folks is not a bad decision even if in retrospect some of the words sound stupid.  Pushing things to the states...so we have 50 little labs trying to come up with a solution that balances outcomes makes some sense to me...I agree with Jerksticks that the economic ramifications for millions has to be considered.  As for his defying the experts...you know for every expert telling the President...this is the worst thing to ever happen...there's another expert saying..."this is like the SARS scare.   It will be gone in a month."  And we still don't know.  Ferguson's College of London model that showed 2.2 million US dead has now been discredited as bad math...but could we ignore that at the time?  This clearly is a bad disease but we don't have an answer...we could wait for the vaccine just like we are waiting for the Cold vaccine.   Everyone has an opinion no one has an answer.   Just lots and lots of guesses.  Honestly if there was a lottery system...everyone lines up and gets a ticket.  You have a 1/1000 chance of instantly dying (330,000 dead in the US) but the other 999 get to go on with their normal lives and see Kopeck starting on Saturday...I would be first in line...especially given the other option...living under my bed with a 1/10,000 chance of dying...no baseball, no bars, no friends, no happiness?            

[Dick Allen]

36 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm bothered by all the blaming.  This is NOT Trump's fault...or the governors.  This is nature that has come up with a new pitch that the batters haven't been able to figure out yet.  Fernando Valenzuela's screwball in 1981.  To listen to the president'S advice to "try to swing late" and shout WHAT AN ASSHOLE...then he says "go the other way with the pitch" and you shout "IDIOT...don't you know batting coaches agree that is the dumbest thing ever".   Though really the batting coaches have no real answer either.   I hate Trump's style but I'm also so sick of everything he does being criticized.  90% of all news stories since his inauguration??  A virus comes along and you guys with perfect hindsight says "we should have done this" or "we should have done that".  But who knew that this wasn't SARS or MERS or Swine Flu?  It was outrageous to put major travel restrictions on China in early February but that proved correct.  His being positive in press conferences in a very scary situation for the simple folks is not a bad decision even if in retrospect some of the words sound stupid.  Pushing things to the states...so we have 50 little labs trying to come up with a solution that balances outcomes makes some sense to me...I agree with Jerksticks that the economic ramifications for millions has to be considered.  As for his defying the experts...you know for every expert telling the President...this is the worst thing to ever happen...there's another expert saying..."this is like the SARS scare.   It will be gone in a month."  And we still don't know.  Ferguson's College of London model that showed 2.2 million US dead has now been discredited as bad math...but could we ignore that at the time?  This clearly is a bad disease but we don't have an answer...we could wait for the vaccine just like we are waiting for the Cold vaccine.   Everyone has an opinion no one has an answer.   Just lots and lots of guesses.  Honestly if there was a lottery system...everyone lines up and gets a ticket.  You have a 1/1000 chance of instantly dying (330,000 dead in the US) but the other 999 get to go on with their normal lives and see Kopeck starting on Saturday...I would be first in line...especially given the other option...living under my bed with a 1/10,000 chance of dying...no baseball, no bars, no friends, no happiness?            

He ignored it, because it was going to bring the stock market down, the thing he used to say he was a great president, even though the guy he just called inompotent again had the dow rise 148% under his watch, praised China for their hard work and transparency and cost lives. And he goes on a daily 2 hour rally telling everyone how great he is. Sorry, Trump deserves every slam he gets. He tweets and watches television when he is supposed to be working. Golfs more than any other President, when he himself said he would have no time to golf, and ripped the previous president for golfing. The Secret Service just spent $179,000 for golf carts at his golf course this summer. And people want to praise him for not taking a salary.

It was probably going to be bad under any president, but most likely not this bad, and every single one of the others would have shown at least a little bit of leadership. 

Probably most importantly, the fact that he made a pandemic a political issue, is disgusting. This isn't red vs. blue, but that's what he made it. 

Edited May 18, 2020 by Dick Allen

[michelangelosmonkey]

24 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He ignored it, because it was going to bring the stock market down, the thing he used to say he was a great president, even though the guy he just called inompotent again had the dow rise 148% under his watch, praised China for their hard work and transparency and cost lives. And he goes on a daily 2 hour rally telling everyone how great he is. Sorry, Trump deserves every slam he gets. He tweets and watches television when he is supposed to be working. Golfs more than any other President, when he himself said he would have no time to golf, and ripped the previous president for golfing. The Secret Service just spent $179,000 for golf carts at his golf course this summer. And people want to praise him for not taking a salary.

It was probably going to be bad under any president, but most likely not this bad, and every single one of the others would have shown at least a little bit of leadership. 

Probably most importantly, the fact that he made a pandemic a political issue, is disgusting. This isn't red vs. blue, but that's what he made it. 

He made it that?  You are a Democrat, fine...but also a mind reader?  You know why he "ignored" the virus...which he didn't do...just acted in a way to an unprecedented situation which was guaranteed to be wrong in certain ways...as every other president would have done?  I bring up the fact that the Virus is a non-political issue and your response is...Trump golfs too much?  And all the problems are with the president?    

[Jerksticks]

9 hours ago, tray said:

That shitstorm is the easiest one to resolve.  The Fed should print another shitload of money, send out another round of Stimulus checks, and fund States so they can cover massive unemployment claims. Then start opening businesses as each State's Covid-19 benchmarks are met and continue to require social distancing, masks, and the prohibition of mass gatherings.

There was an opportunity to demonstrate leadership during this crisis.  Some have taken responsibility for it and  risen to the occasion.

 

 What about the businesses?

[hogan873]

21 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He made it that?  You are a Democrat, fine...but also a mind reader?  You know why he "ignored" the virus...which he didn't do...just acted in a way to an unprecedented situation which was guaranteed to be wrong in certain ways...as every other president would have done?  I bring up the fact that the Virus is a non-political issue and your response is...Trump golfs too much?  And all the problems are with the president?    

The virus itself is not political, but everything else about it is.  Trump called it a Democratic hoax, he said it would disappear, he DID ignore it until it was too late.  Now it's Trumpers vs. Democrats (and some intelligent Republicans) regarding how to respond to the virus and how to go about opening the country again.

It is absolutely political.

[Texsox]

On 5/17/2020 at 6:26 AM, Dick Allen said:

He said once Election Day comes and goes, the virus will magically disappear. These people are crazy.

Kind of like that immigrant invasion right before the mid terms? 

[Dick Allen]

41 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He made it that?  You are a Democrat, fine...but also a mind reader?  You know why he "ignored" the virus...which he didn't do...just acted in a way to an unprecedented situation which was guaranteed to be wrong in certain ways...as every other president would have done?  I bring up the fact that the Virus is a non-political issue and your response is...Trump golfs too much?  And all the problems are with the president?    

Yes, he ignored the virus because he was told the stock market would be spooked. He blamed the previous administration for not having tests. Even though Obama was supposed to know Covid 19 was happening 3 years after he left office, why didn't the Trump administration prepare for a pandemic? They were left a playbook, which they ignored. I already said it was going to be bad under anyone, just not this bad. He was wrong, wrong, wrong, wouldn't come up with a National response, made the states compete for supplies, like it was The Apprentice, Governors edition, which cost time and money, and took zero responsibility. His own words. Golf too much? I didn't say that, he said Obama did. He golfs more than Obama and makes money when he does. But who cares about conflicts of interest. If Trump can dish it out, and all you have to do is see a really or look at his twitter, he should be able to take it. World's biggest victim. 

You really don't have to be a democrat to see he messed up, bigly. Almost every  single Republican politician who isn't afraid of him has pointed it out.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Dick Allen

[michelangelosmonkey]

11 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

The virus itself is not political, but everything else about it is.  Trump called it a Democratic hoax, he said it would disappear, he DID ignore it until it was too late.  Now it's Trumpers vs. Democrats (and some intelligent Republicans) regarding how to respond to the virus and how to go about opening the country again.

It is absolutely political. 

Honestly Trump has spoken two hours every day about the virus for months.  If you want to take out a few snippets here and there...you can weave a narrative to make it political...just understand what you are doing.  As for you perpetuating the "hoax" story...https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/democratic-ad-twists-trumps-hoax-comment/.  I know...now you will say factcheck.org is a Fox News puppet...whatever...this is what the world has become.   

[caulfield12]

Here’s the problem with the China flight ban....it still let in an additional 30-40,000 coming from China past that date.

Most importantly, we refused to similarly stop travel from the EU, well....because of Steve Mnunchin, Jared Kushner and the stock market again.  And those tourists were more desirable politically, I guess?

If the stock market was struggling in late February or early March, we would or could have saved 85-90% of those who died.

 

South Korea has 15x the population of density of the US.

249 deaths.   Total.

We were pulling down those numbers in 2-3 HOURS.

 

We spent more time on hydroxychloroquine than creating any type of national or Federal plan.   We promised a test of everyone when the capacity was 75,000 at best, and nowhere near the 4,000,000 being hyped that was in the pipeline and always just a matter of days away.

 

Trump and Scott Morrison of Australia are essentially the same political animal...Trump pitted governor against governor, and the Federal government vs. states in terms of the PPE supply chain.

But here’s what one of the most partisan leaders in Morrison did.   But instead of offering the most partisan response in the world (UK would also have to be up there), Australia made every decision a bipartisan one with consensus or total buy-in behind it, every piece of messaging had the blessing of both sides of the political aisle before going forward to the public.  And that’s the type of leadership we will never consistently see out of Donald Trump, because he always puts himself first. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/australia/new-zealand-coronavirus.html

 

Australia 99 deaths, New Zealand 21.  That’s 120 for two countries combined.  That 120 per day is now what you’re hoping to limit the state of Iowa to for every day in the month of June.

4.25% of the world, over 1/3rd the cases and soon to be 1/3rd of the deaths.   But that 90,000 to 150,000 (since nearly every scientist is asserting the undercount in the US and around the world is around 60%) is not really such a big number, right?  And most of the people dying are old and/or “unhealthy” minorities anyway, not our OWN neighbors, right?

 

 

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Honestly Trump has spoken two hours every day about the virus for months.  If you want to take out a few snippets here and there...you can weave a narrative to make it political...just understand what you are doing.  As for you perpetuating the "hoax" story...https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/democratic-ad-twists-trumps-hoax-comment/.  I know...now you will say factcheck.org is a Fox News puppet...whatever...this is what the world has become.   

His son this past weekend seemed to think it's a hoax to keep his dad from holding rallies.

 

Eric Trump on his dad being unable to hold rallies b/c of a pandemic that has killed nearly 90k Americans: "After Nov. 3, coronavirus will magically all of the sudden go away & disappear & everybody will be able to reopen. [Dems] are trying to deprive him of his greatest asset."

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Yes, he ignored the virus because he was told the stock market would be spooked. He blamed the previous administration for not having tests. Even though Obama was supposed to know Covid 19 was happening 3 years after he left office, why didn't the Trump administration prepare for a pandemic? They were left a playbook, which they ignored. I already said it was going to be bad under anyone, just not this bad. He was wrong, wrong, wrong, wouldn't come up with a National response, made the states compete for supplies, like it was The Apprentice, Governors edition, which cost time and money, and took zero responsibility. His own words. Golf too much? I didn't say that, he said Obama did. He golfs more than Obama and makes money when he does. But who cares about conflicts of interest. If Trump can dish it out, and all you have to do is see a really or look at his twitter, he should be able to take it. World's biggest victim. 

You really don't have to be a democrat to see he messed up, bigly. Almost every  single Republican politician who isn't afraid of him has pointed it out.

Can you sight your source material for where he said he ignored the virus because it would spook the stock market...or is this just you reading his mind?  Again...we had NO IDEA about the seriousness of this thing (China lied and continues to lie).  Need I remind you that the Swine Flu struck America when Obama was President and...HE DIDN'T SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE DIED.  He has blood on his hands!!!  Please stop.  This isn't political.  This is an unknown virus and the president and the rest of us are doing the best that we can.  I think sitting on the sidelines and shouting out criticisms every step a blind man takes is kind of nasty behavior.  And the golf stuff is just stupid.  This is supposed to be the virus page...go start a "Trump sucks page" and put the golf stuff there....I'd probably agree with you there.     
 

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Honestly Trump has spoken two hours every day about the virus for months.  If you want to take out a few snippets here and there...you can weave a narrative to make it political...just understand what you are doing.  As for you perpetuating the "hoax" story...https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/democratic-ad-twists-trumps-hoax-comment/.  I know...now you will say factcheck.org is a Fox News puppet...whatever...this is what the world has become.   

A hoax meaning something CREATED by the Democrats alone....by Soros/Gates/coastal elites and liberal think tanks and the deep state (how many Inspectors General can one president fire?)...with the solitary goal of destroying Trump’s reelection chances.

How many times did he say it was going to go away...it would magically disappear, poof, just a few cases from China, the heat or UV light would destroy it...to arguing that he actually knew it was a pandemic before even the WHO declared it?

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Here’s the problem with the China flight ban....it still let in an additional 30-40,000 coming from China past that date.

Most importantly, we refused to similarly stop travel from the EU, well....because of Steve Mnunchin, Jared Kushner and the stock market again.  And those tourists were more desirable politically, I guess?

If the stock market was struggling in late February or early March, we would or could have saved 85-90% of those who died.

 

South Korea has 15x the population of density of the US.

249 deaths.   Total.

We were pulling down those numbers in 2-3 HOURS.

 

We spent more time on hydroxychloroquine than creating any type of national or Federal plan.   We promised a test of everyone when the capacity was 75,000 at best, and nowhere near the 4,000,000 being hyped that was in the pipeline and always just a matter of days away.

 

Trump and Scott Morrison of Australia are essentially the same political animal...Trump pitted governor against governor, and the Federal government vs. states in terms of the PPE supply chain.

But here’s what one of the most partisan leaders in Morrison did.   But instead of offering the most partisan response in the world (UK would also have to be up there), Australia made every decision a bipartisan one with consensus or total buy-in behind it, every piece of messaging had the blessing of both sides of the political aisle before going forward to the public.  And that’s the type of leadership we will never consistently see out of Donald Trump, because he always puts himself first. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/australia/new-zealand-coronavirus.html

 

Australia 99 deaths, New Zealand 21.  That’s 120 for two countries combined.  That 120 per day is now what you’re hoping to limit the state of Iowa to for every day in the month of June.

4.25% of the world, over 1/3rd the cases and soon to be 1/3rd of the deaths.   But that 90,000 to 150,000 (since nearly every scientist is asserting the undercount in the US and around the world is around 60%) is not really such a big number, right?  And most of the people dying are old and/or “unhealthy” minorities anyway, not our OWN neighbors, right?

 

 

I didn't say China flight ban.  How could he stop US citizens from coming home?   And again...WE DIDN'T KNOW how bad it was...we still don't.  We are beginning to understand. 

Pushing for an easy cheap, readily available solution to the problem (hydroxocholorquine) that many doctors in the field were recommending and seemed to have positive results...was wrong?  An he's an idiot for saying it?   We also pushed hard at the beginning for ventilators and the country responded and now we have way more than we need...but not enough test kits...and that's the presidents fault.   

As for taking countries that are completely unlike the US, comparing them to the US in examples that help your argument, and then calling the President an asshole because some other experiments in different situations had more favorable outcomes?  That is 100% political.  

At the beginning I liked to come to this sight because a lot of you were reading a lot about the virus, were synthesizing it down into good and bad news and offering interesting insight which was great...and now it has been taken over as a "Trump is a Monster and its all his fault" which is idiotic.  

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Can you sight your source material for where he said he ignored the virus because it would spook the stock market...or is this just you reading his mind?  Again...we had NO IDEA about the seriousness of this thing (China lied and continues to lie).  Need I remind you that the Swine Flu struck America when Obama was President and...HE DIDN'T SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE DIED.  He has blood on his hands!!!  Please stop.  This isn't political.  This is an unknown virus and the president and the rest of us are doing the best that we can.  I think sitting on the sidelines and shouting out criticisms every step a blind man takes is kind of nasty behavior.  And the golf stuff is just stupid.  This is supposed to be the virus page...go start a "Trump sucks page" and put the golf stuff there....I'd probably agree with you there.     
 

He didn’t shut down the country because it wasn’t a novel coronavirus, like SARs and MERs.

There was and is no vaccine.  There might never be one.

The R nought/factor of contagiousness number is markedly higher than swine flu.

Swine flu didn’t do permanent damage to peoples’ bodies, particularly the lungs/immune system.

The flu kills at a 0.1 to 0.2 rate.  This is at LEAST 6-12 times worse...and could be 15-20x because we still don’t know how many have actually had it, have developed antibodies or immunity.   We do know for a fact that some people are getting sick twice.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Can you sight your source material for where he said he ignored the virus because it would spook the stock market...or is this just you reading his mind?  Again...we had NO IDEA about the seriousness of this thing (China lied and continues to lie).  Need I remind you that the Swine Flu struck America when Obama was President and...HE DIDN'T SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE DIED.  He has blood on his hands!!!  Please stop.  This isn't political.  This is an unknown virus and the president and the rest of us are doing the best that we can.  I think sitting on the sidelines and shouting out criticisms every step a blind man takes is kind of nasty behavior.  And the golf stuff is just stupid.  This is supposed to be the virus page...go start a "Trump sucks page" and put the golf stuff there....I'd probably agree with you there.     
 

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-coronavirus-response-keep-stock-market-up-economy-2020-5's  Look at Trump's tweets regarding China from January to March. He bought everything he was supposedly told. There were no US people in the lab. Trump had them removed. I don't think it's a political issue either, but Trump has made it one. Red vs. Blue. But he won't play the same game he is asking others to play. You can't be around him without a test, yet tests are overrated. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

He didn’t shut down the country because it wasn’t a novel coronavirus, like SARs and MERs.

There was and is no vaccine.  There might never be one.

The R nought/factor of contagiousness number is markedly higher than swine flu.

Swine flu didn’t do permanent damage to peoples’ bodies, particularly the lungs/immune system.

The flu kills at a 0.1 to 0.2 rate.  This is at LEAST 6-12 times worse...and could be 15-20x because we still don’t know how many have actually had it, have developed antibodies or immunity.   We do know for a fact that some people are getting sick twice.

 

 

We don't know anything.  We think we know things.  The data is evolving at light speed.   There are a thousand variables.   The 1957 and 1968 viruses killed millions...and President Trump acted WAY more aggressively than Eisenhower or Nixon.  He hasn't been perfect but to use this as a not stop smear campaign just seems like you are pointing a finger at someone for not being able to know what no one else knows.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-trump-coronavirus-response-keep-stock-market-up-economy-2020-5's  Look at Trump's tweets regarding China from January to March. He bought everything he was supposedly told. There were no US people in the lab. Trump had them removed. I don't think it's a political issue either, but Trump has made it one. Red vs. Blue. But he won't play the same game he is asking others to play. You can't be around him without a test, yet tests are overrated. 

Sigh...so a single British newspaper reports, using a single unnamed source, that the presidents son-in-law said that it could spook the stock market...and you conflate that into conclusive evidence that Trump downplayed this to protect the stock market????   Listen...believe what you want to believe.  But please aim for a little self awareness.  Your hatred of the president is making YOU turn this into a political thing.      

[Quin]

3 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

We don't know anything.  We think we know things.  The data is evolving at light speed.   There are a thousand variables.   The 1957 and 1968 viruses killed millions...and President Trump acted WAY more aggressively than Eisenhower or Nixon.  He hasn't been perfect but to use this as a not stop smear campaign just seems like you are pointing a finger at someone for not being able to know what no one else knows.  

Millions globally, not in the US. 

And let's add an asterisk. Governors of various states have acted WAY more aggressively*

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I didn't say China flight ban.  How could he stop US citizens from coming home?   And again...WE DIDN'T KNOW how bad it was...we still don't.  We are beginning to understand. 

Pushing for an easy cheap, readily available solution to the problem (hydroxocholorquine) that many doctors in the field were recommending and seemed to have positive results...was wrong?  An he's an idiot for saying it?   We also pushed hard at the beginning for ventilators and the country responded and now we have way more than we need...but not enough test kits...and that's the presidents fault.   

As for taking countries that are completely unlike the US, comparing them to the US in examples that help your argument, and then calling the President an asshole because some other experiments in different situations had more favorable outcomes?  That is 100% political.  

At the beginning I liked to come to this sight because a lot of you were reading a lot about the virus, were synthesizing it down into good and bad news and offering interesting insight which was great...and now it has been taken over as a "Trump is a Monster and its all his fault" which is idiotic.  

Yes, endlessly promoting a drug that you have no idea about, just a hunch because your buddy Rudy Giuliani and Fox News reporters and economist Peter Navarro are behind It...actually harmed and potentially killed those with serious heart problems.

Instead of devoting resources to PPE procurement and a real vaccine, we for weeks obsessed with therapeutics and aspirational hope drugs that were never properly tested.   That’s just bad science.

Those new ventilators were needed anyway because 25% of the 10,000 on-hand were outdated or broken, and will be there in the stockpile for the US and the rest of the world (sell/loan/donate) when the next pandemic hits.  It doesn’t belong to the Federal government, it belongs to the people.

What country should we be compared to?   China and India?  

On Fox News for weeks, it was Sweden, right?   Germany?   Italy?  Spain?   Russia?   Brazil?    The only two countries that come close to us on population are Indonesia and Brazil.

But Japan, South Korea, Singapore, HK, Taiwan, Australia/NZ, Germany....all industrialized, first world countries with at least fairly or relatively comparable GDP numbers.

If we’re supposed to be the greatest country in the world, how can we be doing worse than nearly every country but the UK, Italy, Spain, possibly France and likely Russia (by the end).   How can we be doing worse than India, for example, or Iran? 

[greg775]

9 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

 
To summarize:
“I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”  

Great post. Our priests the past 30 years have been the Cap. Franciscans, vow of poverty, they wear brown robes tied with rope and serve the public. Good point about brick and mortar and services not being mentioned. He did mention to "do this in memory of me" implying the breaking of bread in a community setting. At any rate for ME church is an hour where I can worship and forget about everything else and I find it uplifting to watch people in there. Often cut-throat at work and other places, they are nice in church. I like it.

Edited May 18, 2020 by greg775

[greg775]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Listen...believe what you want to believe. 

Amen brother. This is the problem. Incorrect figures or in doubt enough people believe what they want to believe. My eye test tells me this is not only a health problem but a $$ problem. People are STARVING now. It's official. Food banks are FEEDING people so they can live. We have to work together to not only be safe as possible from the virus but put food on the table. We can't work together, however, cause of POLITICS.

People have their credit cards; that's about it in many cases.

Edited May 18, 2020 by greg775

[greg775]

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

Too many worry about consolidating and holding onto power. Then a crisis like this happens, and they're still playing politics.

Yep. Politicians in this situation HAVE to be tough or it will burn them if they ever run for higher office. Meanwhile, people with compassion and a brain realize their edicts throwing businessmen into court over defying dictatorial orders is WRONG. I'm voting against every current decision maker in Kansas for their behavior during corona.

[NorthSideSox72]

14 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

We don't know anything.  We think we know things.  The data is evolving at light speed.   There are a thousand variables.   The 1957 and 1968 viruses killed millions...and President Trump acted WAY more aggressively than Eisenhower or Nixon.  He hasn't been perfect but to use this as a not stop smear campaign just seems like you are pointing a finger at someone for not being able to know what no one else knows.  

1968 virus: killed close to 100k in the US... over a period from Fall of 1968 to Spring of 1970, approximately 18 months. COVID has done that in 3 months. Six times the gross death rate.

1957 virus: Similar numbers, but over 3 years (with a middle lag year that was smaller) - again, COVID many, many times more deadly and more transmissable. Also worth noting on this one, a vaccine was ready by the time it started hitting the US hard, because it was a flu variant (COVID is not).

So two keys here. One, COVID is far more contagious and is killing people far more quickly. Which makes early countermeasures key to success. Second, those things happened 50-60 years ago - and we are now in a place with much more advanced medicine and science. Just wanted to point these things out for important context.

 

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Amen brother. This is the problem. Incorrect figures or in doubt enough people believe what they want to believe. My eye test tells me this is not only a health problem but a $$ problem. People are STARVING now. It's official. Food banks are FEEDING people so they can live. We have to work together to not only be safe as possible from the virus but put food on the table. We can't work together, however, cause of POLITICS.

People have their credit cards; that's about it in many cases.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-52703265
Here’s how Australia crafted a bipartisan, non political response.  

Mike DeWine, Charlie Baker and Larry Hogan are three of the most popular (Republican) governors in the US right now.  All of them had strict lockdowns.   The three least popular responses are Florida, Georgia and now Texas.   Each of them opened up more quickly.

[michelangelosmonkey]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Yes, endlessly promoting a drug that you have no idea about, just a hunch because your buddy Rudy Giuliani and Fox News reporters and economist Peter Navarro are behind It...actually harmed and potentially killed those with serious heart problems.

Instead of devoting resources to PPE procurement and a real vaccine, we for weeks obsessed with therapeutics and aspirational hope drugs that were never properly tested.   That’s just bad science.

Those new ventilators were needed anyway because 25% of the 10,000 on-hand were outdated or broken, and will be there in the stockpile for the US and the rest of the world (sell/loan/donate) when the next pandemic hits.  It doesn’t belong to the Federal government, it belongs to the people.

What country should we be compared to?   China and India?  

On Fox News for weeks, it was Sweden, right?   Germany?   Italy?  Spain?   Russia?   Brazil?    The only two countries that come close to us on population are Indonesia and Brazil.

But Japan, South Korea, Singapore, HK, Taiwan, Australia/NZ, Germany....all industrialized, first world countries with at least fairly or relatively comparable GDP numbers.

If we’re supposed to be the greatest country in the world, how can we be doing worse than nearly every country but the UK, Italy, Spain, possibly France and likely Russia (by the end).   How can we be doing worse than India, for example, or Iran? 

Hydroxycholoquine has been used for a hundred years on patients.  It's side effects are well known, it's cheap and easily produced. It would have been great if it was helpful and maybe it is...but it needs to be tested together with Zinc and Arythromyacine and there are still promising results.  And really...you don't believe the President says..."ok...stop all fronts...we are going to only devote our time and energy to Hyrdo..."?   This thing is coming at us from a hundred directions and we are pushing back in a hundred ways...and to say...Look...he recommended that and it didn't work...he's an idiot....just makes you a partisan with perfect hindsight.  

There is no country like the US...we have the #1 economy in the world so we have more business travelers coming here from overseas than anywhere else, we are top tourist destination, we are #1 destination for international students our citizens are rich and mobile and travel frequently all over the world.   We have unfettered domestic travel...with hundreds of possible destinations for overseas people to come visit...we have massive urban and rural places.  We are the oddest country in the world.  To think that US wouldn't be the hardest hit is a misunderstanding of what America is.   

Doing worse than Iran and China?  There are no way those are true numbers. Doing worse than India...that is SO weird.  Why is California been so lightly hit versus NYC?   So many weird things about what is going on with the Virus...making this a political screed is not one of them.