COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[StrangeSox]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

Your guys' posts make it seem like this is 3 months ago. The reality is more stuff is opening. Vegas concerts are returning soon. College indoor events are allowing fans. Schools are opening more and more. Why are we arguing about opening things. They are open.

Cases and hospitalizations are rising

[StrangeSox]

53 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I'm trying to think of a plan that works better if people are irresponsible and don't follow it.  So someone help me out. Why is personal irresponsibility better? 

I believe the best course of action is a solid plan that people responsibly follow. Masks, social distancing, people not gathering together unless you live together, limit contact with strangers, etc. When cases are declining have limit opening of businesses and limited opening of schools, etc. When cases are building close everything down. But be responsible and follow the rules. 

Allowing people to be irresponsible is just not a sustainable plan. 

 

 

How about instead of insisting on the failed strategy of "personal responsibility" over and over you take a look at places that controlled this?

 

Allowing things to be opened and telling everyone that these activities are okay to engage in are what enables the irresponsibility, not shutting things down.

 

How many more deaths, Tex?

[StrangeSox]

48 minutes ago, Texsox said:

People should be responsible. 

With your plan will it work better with people being responsible or irresponsible? Given a choice would you prefer they are responsible or not? 

Why does your plan fail when people are being responsible? 

"My" plan, the plan that the successful countries follow, doesn't fall if people are responsible. You're just making things up at this point.

 

One plan relies entirely on everyone agreeing what is responsible regardless of what is open and allowed, and then following those actions. That's the plan that has failed miserably. 

Edited October 4, 2020 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

46 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Looks like he’s fine. Just left the hospital. Short stay.

 

Edited October 4, 2020 by StrangeSox

[Dick Allen]

7 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

 

 

So Tex, this is why there has to be shutdowns. Not everyone is responsible and when POTUS is one, it emboldens many others. Any hope that Trump getting Covid might spark more responsibly is out the window. Watch all the praise he gets for risking Secret Service lives.

Edited October 4, 2020 by Dick Allen

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

21 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

 

Oh yea, he’s a complete idiot but looks like he’s doing alright.

[StrangeSox]

It wasn't a short stay, he is still at the hospital.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

9 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

It wasn't a short stay, he is still at the hospital.

Really? Thought I saw a report he left? Hilarious

[StrangeSox]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Really? Thought I saw a report he left? Hilarious

He took a joy ride around the building to see his supporters, subjecting secret service members to the virus.

[StrangeSox]

3 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Jumping to these sort of conclusions is crazy too. 

It's not jumping to conclusions, it's known side effects of Dexamethasone plus just all the stuff he's going through with a deadly disease and lowered oxygen saturation levels. This disease can progress very quickly and he had to be hospitalized. Pure irresponsibility.

[KipWellsFan]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Of course, now he will still act like nothing happened...refuse to be open to any policy changes and attempt to force the debate to go ahead late next week.

He’s either going to have the greatest desperation political comeback in history or crash and burn so completely that even our staunchest allies will be taken aback by the foolhardiness of the US in 2020.

 

Even a serious illness is being turned into a reality show prop to boost the ratings...perfectly timed for the evening news and to calm world stock markets before reopening Monday (China is closed through Thursday for National Holidays.)

It's not either or. It's very possible Biden can still win, but by a modest margin. Or some conclusion that is messy where the winner isn't clear for a few days. Also at the pace of news Trump sets, it's possible that this hospital stay isn't even the most stunning event in the last month of the campaign.

Also I'm not aware of any staunch allies of the US that aren't already stunned by the 'foolhardiness' of the US. 

[Texsox]

52 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

"My" plan, the plan that the successful countries follow, doesn't fall if people are responsible. You're just making things up at this point.

 

One plan relies entirely on everyone agreeing what is responsible regardless of what is open and allowed, and then following those actions. That's the plan that has failed miserably. 

I've been saying for days that people must be responsible and follow the rules. You've been arguing that doesn't work. I'm willing to learn, show me a country that is doing well where the citizens weren't responsible and following the rules. 

If everyone is agreeing and following the plan and the plan fails it's a bad plan. But currently from what I'm seeing people aren't being responsible and that needs to change. Isn't following rules the first step in being responsible?

In the  area I'm visiting bars and restaurants have been open for months and cases continue to fall to almost zero. It seems their policy is working. If cases didn't continue to fall its a failing policy and needs to be changed. Certainly we are smart enough to understand not every area has the same problems and solutions. What is necessary during the height of an outbreak might not be necessary when cases drop to low levels. What is required in a city of seven million might not be necessary in a county of thousands. 

 

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

I've been saying for days that people must be responsible and follow the rules. You've been arguing that doesn't work. I'm willing to learn, show me a country that is doing well where the citizens weren't responsible and following the rules. 

If everyone is agreeing and following the plan and the plan fails it's a bad plan. But currently from what I'm seeing people aren't being responsible and that needs to change. Isn't following rules the first step in being responsible?

In the  area I'm visiting bars and restaurants have been open for months and cases continue to fall to almost zero. It seems their policy is working. If cases didn't continue to fall its a failing policy and needs to be changed. Certainly we are smart enough to understand not every area has the same problems and solutions. What is necessary during the height of an outbreak might not be necessary when cases drop to low levels. What is required in a city of seven million might not be necessary in a county of thousands. 

 

This country is not responsible nor following the rules.  Now what?

[caulfield12]

The whole problem with this “by the city....by the county, by the area” isolation idea....there’s not one single area to my knowledge completely locked down in the entire United States, so everyone can go back and forth and keep passing the virus forward.
 

Enforcement has been spotty, at best.  Too many confrontations with non-mask wearers have ended up in serious consequences or even death for those doing their best to self police various establishments without law enforcement presence.   Since, according to Trump, the police are “All on my side,” why would anyone expect policies to be consistently carried out at Federal, state and local levels?  There’s a pretty direct correlation over the last 4-5 months (after the initial NYC spread caused by European travelers) between Trump 2016 states, is there not?  And why would we expect that to change, going forward?  

Hence, the spread will continue unabated.

[caulfield12]

Until now, staffers had gotten no word about whether to come into work or to remain home given several of their colleagues tested positive for coronavirus. Stunningly, the email states they should not contact the White House testing office if they have symptoms.  

"As a reminder, if you are experiencing any symptoms such as sore throat, cough, fever, headache, new loss of taste or small, muscle aches, chills, diarrhea, or difficulty breathing, please stay home and do not come to work until you are free of symptoms," the email, viewed by CNN, read. 

"Affected staff should inform their supervisors and seek care from their primary care provider."

The email instructed staff to go home if they develop symptoms and contact their primary care provider about getting tested. 

"Staff should not go to the White House Medical Unit clinic for any Covid-19 testing inquiries," the email read. 

Officials with possible exposure to someone who has Covid-19 were told to notify the management office and "ONLY return to work when you have been cleared by the White House Medical Unit."

www.cnn.com

 

“That Presidential SUV is not only bulletproof, but hermetically sealed against chemical attack. The risk of COVID19 transmission inside is as high as it gets outside of medical procedures. The irresponsibility is astounding. My thoughts are with the Secret Service forced to play,” Phillips tweeted. 

 

Edited October 5, 2020 by caulfield12

[Chisoxfn]

3 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

It's not jumping to conclusions, it's known side effects of Dexamethasone plus just all the stuff he's going through with a deadly disease and lowered oxygen saturation levels. This disease can progress very quickly and he had to be hospitalized. Pure irresponsibility.

No - you know nothing. You are jumping to conclusions on his health from random tweets etc. maybe he is on a death bed - I don’t know - but more likely he isn’t and the drs are being super cautious and overly careful because this is a serious virus and he is well the president. 
 

Let’s be clear - Do you know for a fact that the president is not mentally capable of making decisions (ok any more mentally incapable than he usually is)? 

[Chisoxfn]

21 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Until now, staffers had gotten no word about whether to come into work or to remain home given several of their colleagues tested positive for coronavirus. Stunningly, the email states they should not contact the White House testing office if they have symptoms.  

"As a reminder, if you are experiencing any symptoms such as sore throat, cough, fever, headache, new loss of taste or small, muscle aches, chills, diarrhea, or difficulty breathing, please stay home and do not come to work until you are free of symptoms," the email, viewed by CNN, read. 

"Affected staff should inform their supervisors and seek care from their primary care provider."

The email instructed staff to go home if they develop symptoms and contact their primary care provider about getting tested. 

"Staff should not go to the White House Medical Unit clinic for any Covid-19 testing inquiries," the email read. 

Officials with possible exposure to someone who has Covid-19 were told to notify the management office and "ONLY return to work when you have been cleared by the White House Medical Unit."

www.cnn.com

 

“That Presidential SUV is not only bulletproof, but hermetically sealed against chemical attack. The risk of COVID19 transmission inside is as high as it gets outside of medical procedures. The irresponsibility is astounding. My thoughts are with the Secret Service forced to play,” Phillips tweeted. 

 

Yeah - pretty stupid by president. No longer surprised by his stupidity and selfishness. 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Chisoxfn said:

No - you know nothing. You are jumping to conclusions on his health from random tweets etc. maybe he is on a death bed - I don’t know - but more likely he isn’t and the drs are being super cautious and overly careful because this is a serious virus and he is well the president. 
 

Let’s be clear - Do you know for a fact that the president is not mentally capable of making decisions (ok any more mentally incapable than he usually is)? 

In Trump’s mind, giving up power to Pence would 1) demonstrate personal weakness, when his entire brand is the opposite, and 2) undermine world financial markets and unsettle foreign leaders (not sure how much more he can do on that front.)

I doubt anyone has the ability, other than Ivanka, to reason with him in this regard.

He just runs roughshod over everyone in his orbit.

That said, if he was to decide in this state to launch an attack against the Venezuelan presidential palace, I’d love to think there are rational people left to stand in his way...it’s not like he can just commandeer the nuclear football and launch an ICBM attack.

[Danny Dravot]

20 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Now, the trend has become just to assume pretty much any abridgment of freedom (we prefer not to surrender)  is unconstitutional.

Incorrect.

Let’s not forget what President Lincoln did with writs of habeas corpus during the Civil War.

With over 205,000 dead and counting, it would be quite easy to argue these are the equivalent of wartime conditions in terms of preventable deaths suffered already with simple but effective policies already enacted by well over 125 countries to contain Covid-19, many of them third world/developing or least industrialized nations lacking in modern medical equipment or access to every therapeutic drug in the world.
 

A Compelling Governmental Purpose

Charles "Rocky" Rhodes, a professor at South Texas College of Law Houston, told Houston Matters host Craig Cohen that the First Amendment can sometimes be overcome in situations where there is what’s known in the judicial circles as a “compelling governmental purpose.”

“And this is the highest order — the apex — of things the government does, things like winning a war, or preventing an imminent attack, protecting children,” Rhodes said. “And, of course, another one of these is protecting the public health from a pandemic."

Pandemics Aren’t New — Just New To Us

While this global situation is new to most Americans, pandemics used to be much more commonplace. The last one was the Spanish Flu outbreak in 1918, which resulted in our Constitution being tested by local and state regulations. And throughout our nation’s history the court has issued multiple rulings that have established legal precedent when it comes to distancing and quarantine methods.

One such case was Jacobson v. Massachusetts in 1905. A man named Henning Jacobson wanted to refuse a smallpox vaccine and maintained he had the legal right to do so.

However, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the state, stating that “a community has the right to protect itself against an epidemic of disease which threatens the safety of its members.”

 https://www.houstonpublicmedia.org/articles/shows/houston-matters/2020/04/10/366511/how-the-constitution-gets-tested-in-times-of-crisis-like-a-pandemic/

Ok...so there’s a guy paddle boarding. He’s alone, 30-40 yards off an empty beach, minding his own business, presenting no danger to anyone. A police boat with 4-5 officers pulls up next to him, talks to him briefly, and then hauls him on board to take him to jail where a bunch of other actual vagabonds await. Guy went from being alone with no chance of infection to interacting with possibly dozens of strangers.

Forget the Constitution for a minute. Is this course of action wise?

I’m all for a mask mandate. I’m all for outside dining only. I’m all for virtual learning (with an eye towards returning based on actual data). I’ve also had a bout with corona. So I’m not some Trumpist dingbat who thinks it’s a hoax to destroy the economy and bring on the rule of the pedophiles, and I am taking this seriously. But our “lockdown” was a massive, idiotic cockup.

[Texsox]

11 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

This country is not responsible nor following the rules.  Now what?

Are you suggesting that if people were responsible and follow the rules it would be better? Because that's exactly what I've been saying for days. With irresponsible people no plan will work.

Now what? We need people to act responsibly. We need better enforcement of the rules. We need to stop this nonsense that personal responsibility isn't necessary. It's the first step as you just pointed out. It's the irresponsible people who are the problem.

 

 

[Texsox]

21 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

When you post racist sentiment,  why would you be surprised that people call you on it? That might fly in Kansas, but you aren't in Kansas anymore on Soxtalk. 

I gotta step in these cow patties a defend the little feller G7 here. He's a true 'merican Patriot who believes his government officials and reports what they say. If we call him out as racist aren't we calling out so many of our leaders as racist as well?  

[southsider2k5]

27 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Are you suggesting that if people were responsible and follow the rules it would be better? Because that's exactly what I've been saying for days. With irresponsible people no plan will work.

Now what? We need people to act responsibly. We need better enforcement of the rules. We need to stop this nonsense that personal responsibility isn't necessary. It's the first step as you just pointed out. It's the irresponsible people who are the problem.

 

 

No. We have tried that for 7 months and 200,000 are dead. It failed. Now what?

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I gotta step in these cow patties a defend the little feller G7 here. He's a true 'merican Patriot who believes his government officials and reports what they say. If we call him out as racist aren't we calling out so many of our leaders as racist as well?  

uh, duh.

[caulfield12]

19 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I gotta step in these cow patties a defend the little feller G7 here. He's a true 'merican Patriot who believes his government officials and reports what they say. If we call him out as racist aren't we calling out so many of our leaders as racist as well?  

Oblivious...intentional...motivated to incite hatred/fear, does it matter?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/01/opinions/nathan-bedford-forrest-connor-towne-oneill-carr/index.html
 

One thing I found quite fascinating what that even Pulaski, Tennessee, birthplace of the KKK...turned the historical marker denoting that event backwards and reaffixed it to the building where the first meeting was held.  So now its just blank.

Of course, those are fighting words (“That’s racist!”) when cast in the direction of Trumpists, but every bit of evidence collected would suggest it’s around 20-25% of the current GOP base who would test in one dimension or another of this category with a scientifically constructed “blind” survey instrument.

 

[StrangeSox]

58 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Are you suggesting that if people were responsible and follow the rules it would be better? Because that's exactly what I've been saying for days. With irresponsible people no plan will work.

Now what? We need people to act responsibly. We need better enforcement of the rules. We need to stop this nonsense that personal responsibility isn't necessary. It's the first step as you just pointed out. It's the irresponsible people who are the problem.

 

 

Maybe a lot of this is talking past each other.

 

Some of the irresponsible people are the political leaders who are doing things like opening up bars and restaurants for indoor dining and encouraging other high-risk activities such as that. Without responsible rules in place, which unfortunately include closing a whole lot of places down until things are at a controllable level, personal responsibility doesn't really start factoring in. Because you can be "responsibly" just doing the things all sorts of leaders and officials are telling you are good and safe, like going to bars, opening up schools, etc., and be contributing to the spread.

 

So ultimately, I am looking to the public policy leaders to be officially/publicly responsible here. Because without strong state and national leadership and the willingness to make the tough calls and put in the strict rules, we don't have a chance. Step 1 is putting the responsible rules in place so we stop killing people. Step 2 is the personal, individual responsibility in following those rules we need.

We did an okay job at Step 1 in a lot of places, though not all, early on. Since May in many areas and June in most others, we've seriously failed and we're heading down the wrong road at a steady pace. Without that Step 1, Step 2 doesn't really matter.

Edited October 5, 2020 by StrangeSox