COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Someone help me understand this. 

Our policies are failing because people are not being responsible so we really need people to be

A. Responsible

B. Irresponsible

I believe whatever we decide as the next phase we need A. If you believe B please explain. 

I don’t know why you ask this 50 times. The problem is not everyone is in group A. In fact not nearly enough are in group A. Therefore, there needs to be restrictions that will enforce that behavior. 
 

They put speed bumps on residential streets even though most people drive responsibly on these streets.

Edited October 7, 2020 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

1 hour ago, Stinky Stanky said:

(the quote about feeling better than in 20 years) The steroid he's getting, Dexamethasone, makes you feel better even if you're sick.  They give it to cancer patients.  The "dietary supplement" he's getting, Melatonin, is a hormone produced by the pineal gland (it's above your brain) that regulates sleep.  One of the side effects of Dexamethasone is to keep you awake at night.  The guy doesn't understand why he's feeling better!

I guarantee with ~100% certainty that there will be a deal before election day even though he said there won't.  His negotiation style is to go to the extreme, in public, and scare people. Who are we to say it doesn't work?

Can you give an example of when it worked? What usually happens is he caves, and he will be under a lot of pressure to cave again as 76% of Americans think a stimulus deal is a bigger priority right now than confirming a SCjjustice.

[StrangeSox]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Someone help me understand this. 

Our policies are failing because people are not being responsible so we really need people to be

A. Responsible

B. Irresponsible

I believe whatever we decide as the next phase we need A. If you believe B please explain. 

This all started because you mocked balta for advocating for stricter public policies. Just stop it 

[StrangeSox]

My wife's grandma popped positive today. Not hospitalized, but she's in her mid 80's.

 

 

 

 

 

Hope Trump's come-down from his steroid induced mania isn't too harsh.

[Stinky Stanky]

3 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said:

(the quote about feeling better than in 20 years) The steroid he's getting, Dexamethasone, makes you feel better even if you're sick.  They give it to cancer patients.  The "dietary supplement" he's getting, Melatonin, is a hormone produced by the pineal gland (it's above your brain) that regulates sleep.  One of the side effects of Dexamethasone is to keep you awake at night.  The guy doesn't understand why he's feeling better!

I guarantee with ~100% certainty that there will be a deal before election day even though he said there won't.  His negotiation style is to go to the extreme, in public, and scare people. Who are we to say it doesn't work?

Hate to quote myself, but he reversed himself on the stimulus deal.  That took about an hour.

[caulfield12]

https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/10/06/california-congressman-says-he-got-coronavirus-after-sen-mike-lee-interaction-1321724
 

Calif Democratic Congressman claims (without much proof) that Utah GOP Senator Mike Lee gave him Covid.

[Texsox]

8 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

This all started because you mocked balta for advocating for stricter public policies. Just stop it 

Whoa I never mocked anyone for stricter public policies. Prove that. I've said any plan you want is fine but for it to be successful people have to responsibly follow that plan. Stricter is fine but it starts with people following the plan. 

People following policies - Good

People not following policies - Bad

It's a simple as that. Personal responsibility doesn't work? Then let's give personal irresponsibility a try.

Since you don't agree that we need personal responsibility let's start with what irresponsible thing are you doing to help stop the spread? 

My point is so simple y'all are trying to make it more than it is. People have to follow the rules for rules to work. ANY RULES. 

Maybe this example will work. People drove drunk during prohibition. The strictest alcohol rules in the history of our country didn't stop drunk driving. All bars were closed months ago and people drove drunk. Rules are necessary, they are the cornerstone of a society. But for them to really work people have to follow them. 

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Whoa I never mocked anyone for stricter public policies. Prove that. I've said any plan you want is fine but for it to be successful people have to responsibly follow that plan. Stricter is fine but it starts with people following the plan. 

People following policies - Good

People not following policies - Bad

It's a simple as that. Personal responsibility doesn't work? Then let's give personal irresponsibility a try.

Since you don't agree that we need personal responsibility let's start with what irresponsible thing are you doing to help stop the spread? 

My point is so simple y'all are trying to make it more than it is. People have to follow the rules for rules to work. ANY RULES. 

Maybe this example will work. People drove drunk during prohibition. The strictest alcohol rules in the history of our country didn't stop drunk driving. All bars were closed months ago and people drove drunk. Rules are necessary, they are the cornerstone of a society. But for them to really work people have to follow them. 

 

 

 

 

The problem with all these analogies to motor safety laws is there’s a huge consequence for not following them...losing your license, going to jail, etc.

We don’t have that level of seriousness yet...not across the board.

It’s more analogous to the pregnant mother who smokes, drinks alcohol, especially any illegal drugs while pregnant...it’s more of a social stigma, and every mother knows it can lead to birth defects...but that doesn’t stop some from taking that risk.

Back to that personal responsibility, where there’s not as much of an official government enforcement mechanism, other than the consequences to the health of an unborn baby (outside of the illegal drugs angle.)
 

You can’t have a true lockdown in most American cities (anyway) because almost everyone has a car, and most live in single family homes, so there’s simply no way like here in China to block them in their houses, garages or driveways that’s going to be practical. There aren’t enough police, National Guard or active duty military to control massive swaths of population or land area, either.  Can hardly control travel from one state to another, unless all available resources were allocated to that purpose.

Plus, there’s neither the will, funding nor available (in the moment) training for efficient contact tracing...which has been one of many failures on all levels of government.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

Using the pregnant mom example. 

In this thread if I say pregnant women should be responsible and not smoke or drink I'll be told that doesn't work. 

So what does work? Women being irresponsible and smoking and drinking? 

Even with the strictest laws imaginable against it, the problem will continue if women smoke and drink. The only way it stops is when people are responsible. We need rules in place and enforcement because obviously people don't do this on their own. But in the end it's the actions that matter. 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Using the pregnant mom example. 

In this thread if I say pregnant women should be responsible and not smoke or drink I'll be told that doesn't work. 

So what does work? Women being irresponsible and smoking and drinking? 

Even with the strictest laws imaginable against it, the problem will continue if women smoke and drink. The only way it stops is when people are responsible. We need rules in place and enforcement because obviously people don't do this on their own. But in the end it's the actions that matter. 

 

 

Which is why shutting down dining in restaurants needs to happen.  Give them financial assistance to make it through the pandemic. 

[Texsox]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Which is why shutting down dining in restaurants needs to happen.  Give them financial assistance to make it through the pandemic. 

And delivery. Typhoid Mary should be our warning that Grub Hub etc. is a disaster waiting to happen. 

Responsible restaurant owners and police will keep the dining rooms closed. If irresponsible restaurant owners leave the dining rooms open, if people continue to disobey the law and visit those places operating illegally, and the police don't enforce the law, it won't make much of a difference what the law is. Viruses don't follow the law.

[Dick Allen]

4 minutes ago, Texsox said:

And delivery. Typhoid Mary should be our warning that Grub Hub etc. is a disaster waiting to happen. 

Responsible restaurant owners and police will keep the dining rooms closed. If irresponsible restaurant owners leave the dining rooms open, if people continue to disobey the law and visit those places operating illegally, and the police don't enforce the law, it won't make much of a difference what the law is. Viruses don't follow the law.

Obviously you refuse to have an adult conversation about the topic. Other countries shut down and are in much better shape. But ignore that. 'Merica.

[Texsox]

31 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Obviously you refuse to have an adult conversation about the topic. Other countries shut down and are in much better shape. But ignore that. 'Merica.

I'm really trying.

I'm all for passing a law closing dining rooms.

What I've been saying is that law only works if

Owners responsibility close their dining room.

People responsibly stay away from illegally operating dining rooms.

Police responsibly enforce the laws.

Just passing a law closing dining rooms isn't enough.

And I've been in enough contact tracing training to know we need to limit person to person contact. One delivery driver in a day contacts more people than you or I would in a month. It's one of the worst case scenarios in the training and why I will always pick up food orders myself and quarantine all of my Amazon orders.

Use this example. A delivery person tests positive. Over the past two weeks they may have touched items that hundreds of other people have received. Who has been in their vehicle and were they wearing a mask, sneezing, etc. Do you see the nightmare? Now check those hundred for how many people they interacted with. Add in they are more likely to economically at risk and unable to take time off without dire consequences.

All four of the health officials told us they avoid delivery at all costs. 

 

[Dick Allen]

18 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I'm really trying.

I'm all for passing a law closing dining rooms.

What I've been saying is that law only works if

Owners responsibility close their dining room.

People responsibly stay away from illegally operating dining rooms.

Police responsibly enforce the laws.

Just passing a law closing dining rooms isn't enough.

And I've been in enough contact tracing training to know we need to limit person to person contact. One delivery driver in a day contacts more people than you or I would in a month. It's one of the worst case scenarios in the training and why I will always pick up food orders myself and quarantine all of my Amazon orders.

Use this example. A delivery person tests positive. Over the past two weeks they may have touched items that hundreds of other people have received. Who has been in their vehicle and were they wearing a mask, sneezing, etc. Do you see the nightmare? Now check those hundred for how many people they interacted with. Add in they are more likely to economically at risk and unable to take time off without dire consequences.

All four of the health officials told us they avoid delivery at all costs. 

 

No, you just decided to be obnoxious. Isn't there now guidance that getting Covid from surfaces, like a package, is highly unlikely?  I did read where if you tested positive for Covid 19 recently the chances were doubled you have recently dined in a restaurant. 

[NWINFan]

Trump said he has now learned about the virus. 10 months into the crisis and he's just learning now? What has he learned? Nothing from my viewpoint.

[Texsox]

18 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

No, you just decided to be obnoxious. Isn't there now guidance that getting Covid from surfaces, like a package, is highly unlikely?  I did read where if you tested positive for Covid 19 recently the chances were doubled you have recently dined in a restaurant. 

So would a responsible or irresponsible person dine in a restaurant? 

San Antonio Metro Health advised against touching anything a stranger touches. Treat it all as possibly contaminated. How is that a bad policy?

Which is safer, you picking up your food or someone else picking up your food and delivering it to you? Adding people, each one possibly infected, is not safer. 

[StrangeSox]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

And delivery. Typhoid Mary should be our warning that Grub Hub etc. is a disaster waiting to happen. 

Responsible restaurant owners and police will keep the dining rooms closed. If irresponsible restaurant owners leave the dining rooms open, if people continue to disobey the law and visit those places operating illegally, and the police don't enforce the law, it won't make much of a difference what the law is. Viruses don't follow the law.

This is why you're getting pushback. You're arguing for irresponsible policies and, through your responses, mocking the people who are actually taking this seriously.

 

How many more dead, Tex? How many more before you stop with glib nonsense like "everyone's gotta eat" as an excuse for why restaurants should be open?

 

 

[StrangeSox]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

Using the pregnant mom example. 

In this thread if I say pregnant women should be responsible and not smoke or drink I'll be told that doesn't work. 

So what does work? Women being irresponsible and smoking and drinking? 

Even with the strictest laws imaginable against it, the problem will continue if women smoke and drink. The only way it stops is when people are responsible. We need rules in place and enforcement because obviously people don't do this on their own. But in the end it's the actions that matter. 

 

 

The actions of shutting things down and sending very clear official stances on what is and isn't actually responsible behavior matters very much in a public health crisis.

 

At most you're giving empty platitudes that excuse widespread political failures in this country.

[StrangeSox]

16 minutes ago, Texsox said:

So would a responsible or irresponsible person dine in a restaurant? 

San Antonio Metro Health advised against touching anything a stranger touches. Treat it all as possibly contaminated. How is that a bad policy?

Which is safer, you picking up your food or someone else picking up your food and delivering it to you? Adding people, each one possibly infected, is not safer. 

A responsible public leader would shut down in person dining so we don't have to rely on thousands of individual risk assessments of what is or isn't responsible, especially when those individual assessments are informed by what leaders are demonstrating are acceptable activities.

 

Remember, your example county in Texas is actually doing very poorly per capita.

Edited October 7, 2020 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

12 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

This is why you're getting pushback. You're arguing for irresponsible policies and, through your responses, mocking the people who are actually taking this seriously.

 

How many more dead, Tex? How many more before you stop with glib nonsense like "everyone's gotta eat" as an excuse for why restaurants should be open?

 

 

I've never said that restaurants should be open. I've said if you close them people must follow the law for that to work. 

How many more must die before people start following the rules? Good question that you need to answer. I believe we need to start following the rules right fucking now or this keeps getting worse.

How is not following the rules responsible and solving this pandemic?

 

[Stinky Stanky]

50 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

Trump said he has now learned about the virus. 10 months into the crisis and he's just learning now? What has he learned? Nothing from my viewpoint.

Blather.  He knew everything and told it to Bob Woodward in their intereviews in February.  It's all on tape.  Google it and learn.

[Texsox]

You guys are adding more to my stance than is there.

I believe people need to be responsible and follow, at a minimum, any rules that are in place.

I understand that some of you disagree. I can't change your mind and y'all haven't changed mine. Just please when you are being irresponsible don't come around me. 

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, Stinky Stanky said:

Blather.  He knew everything and told it to Bob Woodward in their intereviews in February.  It's all on tape.  Google it and learn.

He even said it was exactly five times worse, quite precisely.

[caulfield12]

23 minutes ago, Texsox said:

You guys are adding more to my stance than is there.

I believe people need to be responsible and follow, at a minimum, any rules that are in place.

I understand that some of you disagree. I can't change your mind and y'all haven't changed mine. Just please when you are being irresponsible don't come around me. 

I also think a lot of this falls under the countryside/rural/open spaces vs. city/urban area argument...

While there are exceptions, many or most of the Red states tend to have less dense populations.   While there are notable higher population states (like Ohio, Texas, Florida and Georgia,) there’s that constant narrative barrage of “failed city/Blue mayors” arguments being made each and every day on conservative social media...that the country is completely falling apart due to mayors and not governors or the executive branch.

If you were to throw out a few stereotypes, the red states supposedly care more about individual freedoms, gun rights, less interventionist or limited government, etc.
 

Going by most of the comments here, people in urban areas are more willing to collectively shut down.  And throughout this, those in rural areas believe (mostly) that life should still go on as normally as possible, with many saying things like “I’d rather die as a result of the virus than wear a mask for the 3-5 years or completely change the way I live my life because someone TELLS me that it’s the right or best or safest thing to do and is for the collective good of everyone else.”
 

And the logical counterargument is places like Florida or South Dakota that are basically now taking the Sweden path moving forward...when, at best, only 10-20% of the US has been exposed/infected already and it’s burning through the most secure building in the world like a California wildfire.

I would guess we’ll see similar trend lines between city/urban and country/rural about acceptance of the “compelling community need” to be vaccinated, once these first human participants have cleared at least three months after Stage 3 trials without any significant side effects.

Edited October 7, 2020 by caulfield12

[Quin]

23 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

He even said it was exactly five times worse, quite precisely.

And the exact method of transmission.