COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[southsider2k5]

Just now, raBBit said:

I'd be delighted to find out if the next person up could be worse than Fauci. And if so, how. Trump is gone. Fauci is not. Not that you can't blame Trump, what is the argument for Fauci's continuing on?

It's not my decision, so I would say Joe Biden wanting him in the position.

[Two-Gun Pete]

5 hours ago, bmags said:

This isn't true, and I think Fauci should retire because he absolutely did do a number of "noble lies".

They were discouraging masks didn't work because they worried about supply chain, which is an example of things a lot of public health spokesman would do a lot this pandemic.

Gottlieb was 10x the communicator during the pandemic, despite being on the board for a company that actually stood to benefit which is quite disappointing. 

Yes, that one was already known. To the bolded, what other "noble lies" are known? I'm game to hear them.

[Two-Gun Pete]

4 hours ago, bmags said:

Was not an impossible task, and lying didn’t solve the shortage and communicating accurately could have led to the many private businesses making cloth masks to do it earlier. 

Disagreed.

I can tell you that pretty much everyone who has worked in Healthcare in the past decade has probably never used a non-chinese made mask over that timeframe.

So having masks made and available to the American public is not a matter of snapping Faucis fingers, and magically making them available. Either to JUST Healthcare workers, let alone to all 340MM+ residents of the US.

As to making cloth masks magically available, look around you: a year+ into this pandemic, the overwhelming majority of Americans still wear the cheap Chinese surgical-style masks.

 

So yes, ramping up and building a sufficient and reliable supply chain that was entirely domestically based just was not going to magically happen then. FFS, it hasn't happened NOW, a year later. (Though it probably should, IMO.)

Then you had all the mask Karens who all got their jollies berating the Costco manager for forcing them to mask up. Ya know, the so-called "sovereign citizens" who all "had medical conditions" that exempted them from masking up in the first place.

 

So yeah, there was an availability issue, and there was a public acceptance issue as well. There was and is no magic bullet to these issues.

 

That said, as a matter of public health and national readiness, there are certain commodities that absolutely need to be made here.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[caulfield12]

31 minutes ago, raBBit said:

I'd be delighted to find out if the next person up could be worse than Fauci. And if so, how. Trump is gone. Fauci is not. Not that you can't blame Trump, what is the argument for Fauci's continuing on?

Very simple, look what happened when he lost faith in Dr. Deborah Birx...he brought in an ideologue in Scott Atlas.   Nobody in the world thought Redfield or Alex Azar were the right picks for their jobs, either.  What is Birx’s reputation now in the medical community for selling her soul to the devil to get promoted to a spot higher than Fauci?  Well, making faces during his press conference on bleaching and light rays helped to get her basically started on the road to persona non grata with Trump. All her fancy scarves and perceived credibility vanished in just a couple of months of enabling Trump.

So basically it’s the Mattis/Tillerson/Kelly theory.  Someone had to stand there in the brink and be the responsible adult to protect the American people from Trump’s worst instincts.

[caulfield12]

33 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Disagreed.

I can tell you that pretty much everyone who has worked in Healthcare in the past decade has probably never used a non-chinese made mask over that timeframe.

So having masks made and available to the American public is not a matter of snapping Faucis fingers, and magically making them available. Either to JUST Healthcare workers, let alone to all 340MM+ residents of the US.

As to making cloth masks magically available, look around you: a year+ into this pandemic, the overwhelming majority of Americans still wear the cheap Chinese surgical-style masks.

 

So yes, ramping up and building a sufficient and reliable supply chain that was entirely domestically based just was going to magically happen then. FFS, it hasn't happened NOW, a year later. (Though it probably should, IMO.)

Then you had all the mask Karens who all got their jollies berating the Costco manager for forcing them to mask up. Ya know, the so-called "sovereign citizens" who all "had medical conditions" that exempted them from masking up in the first place.

 

So yeah, there was an availability issue, and there was a public acceptance issue as well. There was and is no magic bullet to these issues.

 

That said, as a matter of public health and national readiness, there are certain commodities that absolutely need to be made here.

They’re called strategic public goods, whether it’s military tech, AI, supercomputing and cloud investments, rare earths materials, farming subsidies, 5G broadband networks or PPE/drug supply chains not reliant on India or China.

 

No, it’s not Yahoo News.

State Department staff warned a Trump-appointed official against investigating COVID-19's origins, fearing a probe would 'open a can of worms,' a leaked memo says

https://www.yahoo.com/news/state-department-staff-warned-trump-115234415.html

Edited June 3, 2021 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

20 hours ago, raBBit said:

If you're going to respond with the same tone, I am not going to respond anymore. You can brag that you got me I don't care. If you seriously wanted to understand, I answered your questions but I think we both know that's not what your post was about. You and I are subjected to different rules and given this post and others from you I realize that you don't respond to my posts because you want to have a conversation or hear a different view point. So if it's going to continue with more of the same, I am done responding.

All I am doing is speaking on the current event that is a result of an official government release as a result of the Freedom of Information Act. This release, among many other happenstances over the last ~16 months cast Mr. Fauci as someone who is either incompetent or consistently lying about significant matters. As an American, I am simply questioning why our government's highest paid employee is, in the best case scenario, completely incompetent. And if that's not the case, I would like to know what's causing him to have different public and private opinions and rotating, ever-evolving public opinions that change given the month, administration or "phase" of the virus. 

I don't understand why you respond to my posts so rudely and why you feel the corporate media entities and the highest paid government employee (a millionaire multiple times over) are in need of you defense? Why are you rude to a fellow American questioning them following the unveiling of their questionable behavior? Do you really think the billion dollar media companies deserve your fervor-filled defense?

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dick Allen

[raBBit]

28 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 

 

Hmm?

[bmags]

2 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Disagreed.

I can tell you that pretty much everyone who has worked in Healthcare in the past decade has probably never used a non-chinese made mask over that timeframe.

So having masks made and available to the American public is not a matter of snapping Faucis fingers, and magically making them available. Either to JUST Healthcare workers, let alone to all 340MM+ residents of the US.

As to making cloth masks magically available, look around you: a year+ into this pandemic, the overwhelming majority of Americans still wear the cheap Chinese surgical-style masks.

 

So yes, ramping up and building a sufficient and reliable supply chain that was entirely domestically based just was not going to magically happen then. FFS, it hasn't happened NOW, a year later. (Though it probably should, IMO.)

Then you had all the mask Karens who all got their jollies berating the Costco manager for forcing them to mask up. Ya know, the so-called "sovereign citizens" who all "had medical conditions" that exempted them from masking up in the first place.

 

So yeah, there was an availability issue, and there was a public acceptance issue as well. There was and is no magic bullet to these issues.

 

That said, as a matter of public health and national readiness, there are certain commodities that absolutely need to be made here.

That you went so seamlessly from "fauci was following the scientific method on masks" to "yes we all knew about fauci lying about masks" to "fauci was right to lie about masks" makes me want to avoid spending too much time on this.

However, I think the bolded is illustrative on the failure of the CDC and Fauci.

His inability to provide guidance on mitigating the risk of covid vs. fully preventing covid meant we were getting really inconsistent rationales for what to follow. For some reason, it was very important to wash our hands. There wasn't a lot of info that we had of it spreading this way, but it was common sense to remove that layer of risk, so they were very clear: wash your hands.

But when it came to masks? Outdoor vs indoor? Continued to hedge that both posed risks of getting it, so really best advice is just to avoid. 

Made no sense.

Cloth masks do not refer to the surgery masks. They are referring to 

https://mackweldon.com/products/2-pack-silver-mask?

Check it out, an underwear company using the fabric they have available to layer and make masks. Just like my old neighbors in April 2020 used their sewing machine to make the block masks. 

Saying that covering your mouth would help prevent infecting others (known at the time to Fauci) would have been valuable information that saved peoples lives. The government could have absolutely prevented private consumers from buying PPE and at the same time said "home made masks will help". 

Those cheap surgery masks? Those are fine for regular people going in and out. It is not N-95, it will not 95% keep you from getting covid if you had contact with it, but it does in reduce the likelihood.

The swiss cheese model was not being applied from fauci and the cdc. We got "wash your hands" from them and stay away. If you had to go to see someone, was the CDC/Fauci helpful in letting you know to go outside instead? Not really, very inconsistent guidance on air flow and importance of ventilation until I think...January 2021. 

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 

 

Pretty sure we just had an entire administration do that for four years...yet 35-40% of America could care less.

In fact, the outrage over Benghazi and email servers (Ivanka and Jared got passes for being generally clueless I guess) swamped the anger over thousands of Trump lies, cancel/woke culture and just generally owning libs. 
 

Seriously, there are better hills to die on than attempting to replace Fauci.  
 

I would suggest Matt Gaetz, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Rep Alvin Brooks and Ron DeSantis would all be fine replacements to lead our country out of the woods.

Let’s not forget that it was Trump who protected China and Xi Jinping for many months last year until it became politically popular to go after China on nearly every issue.   Trump is the one who wasted February, because he was more concerned with preserving thst stupid trade deal that actually managed to grow the trade deficit than saving American lies.  Let’s not forget consumers got stuck with higher prices as tariff costs were passed onto them on most goods and we also got a taxpayer bill to subsidize Iowa, Nebraska, Wisconsin and Ohio farmers (actually just buying their votes/allegiance) in the billions and billions.  But those huge budget deficits and corporate/Top 2% tax giveaways don’t mean anything until Dems are back in office and financial austerity/starve the government of funding (except the military, of course) because the fallback standard position.

[caulfield12]

28 minutes ago, bmags said:

That you went so seamlessly from "fauci was following the scientific method on masks" to "yes we all knew about fauci lying about masks" to "fauci was right to lie about masks" makes me want to avoid spending too much time on this.

However, I think the bolded is illustrative on the failure of the CDC and Fauci.

His inability to provide guidance on mitigating the risk of covid vs. fully preventing covid meant we were getting really inconsistent rationales for what to follow. For some reason, it was very important to wash our hands. There wasn't a lot of info that we had of it spreading this way, but it was common sense to remove that layer of risk, so they were very clear: wash your hands.

But when it came to masks? Outdoor vs indoor? Continued to hedge that both posed risks of getting it, so really best advice is just to avoid. 

Made no sense.

Cloth masks do not refer to the surgery masks. They are referring to 

https://mackweldon.com/products/2-pack-silver-mask?

Check it out, an underwear company using the fabric they have available to layer and make masks. Just like my old neighbors in April 2020 used their sewing machine to make the block masks. 

Saying that covering your mouth would help prevent infecting others (known at the time to Fauci) would have been valuable information that saved peoples lives. The government could have absolutely prevented private consumers from buying PPE and at the same time said "home made masks will help". 

Those cheap surgery masks? Those are fine for regular people going in and out. It is not N-95, it will not 95% keep you from getting covid if you had contact with it, but it does in reduce the likelihood.

The swiss cheese model was not being applied from fauci and the cdc. We got "wash your hands" from them and stay away. If you had to go to see someone, was the CDC/Fauci helpful in letting you know to go outside instead? Not really, very inconsistent guidance on air flow and importance of ventilation until I think...January 2021. 

Fauci has nothing to do with the CDC.  That was Redfield’s show, and he was woefully unprepared for that level of responsibility or even considering bipartisan approaches.

How many of those so-called health leaders landed on their feet post-Trump?  Where is Dr. Ben Carson? Azar?  Birx? Adams?  Hahn?

All we had to do was use the German or WHO kits that were already in existence, but no, we wasted weeks and weeks measuring something...a complicated component that wasn’t even necessary, kind of like an own-goal in soccer. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Fauci made this comment on an interview with 60 Minutes on March 8, during the early stages of the novel coronavirus outbreak in the United States. A longer extract of the interview is visible  youtu.be/PRa6t_e7dgI  (see 30-second mark).   

The interview predates the CDC’s updated guidance on the use of face coverings. On April 3, 2020, the CDC updated its previous advice and recommended people wear cloth face coverings “in public settings when around people outside their household, especially when social distancing measures are difficult to maintain.”

CDC’s latest guidance on face coverings is visible  here  . As of this fact check’s publication, the CDC recommendation remains almost the same. They note children under the age of 2, people who have trouble breathing, are unconscious or incapacitated should not wear a mask ( archive.vn/wip/TY8JR ).   

As Fauci told the Washington Post  here , at the beginning of the COVID-19 pandemic, masks were not recommended for the general public, as authorities were trying to prevent a mask shortage for health workers and the extent of asymptomatic spread was unknown.  

As more information became available about SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, health authorities and organizations around the world have changed their stance towards the impact of face masks and the spread of the disease ( here ).   

As of the publishing of this fact check, Fauci is encouraging people to wear face coverings. Fauci has reaffirmed this stance on interviews on Sept. 21, Aug. 10 and Aug. 5 that are visible here ( bit.ly/3dbpHsA , bit.ly/36GS9Bz , bit.ly/2GKAw94 )

Reuters has fact-checked outdated medical guidance being shared as if current and misleading people, examples are visible  here ,  here ,  here   ,  here .   
 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-fauci-outdated-video-masks-idUSKBN26T2TR

Very clear, the CDC was responsible for setting government mask policies, not the NIH !!!

 

First, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said that only health care workers and people who were sick needed to wear masks. Now, the White House is reportedly backtracking on that advice, and it may recommend that everyone wear face coverings when they’re out in public. Confusion over the whiplashing policies is likely to linger. Clear and consistent communication is one of the most important parts of pandemic response, and the federal government has already gotten that wrong.

Calls for the change escalated over the past few weeks: experts started to highlight research showing that masks may offer some degree of protection, and many began pushing for universal mask-wearing as case numbers continued to climb. 

Changing policies during a crisis event like this one shouldn’t be a big surprise. The coronavirus is new, and when it first appeared in December, scientists didn’t know how it would behave. Researchers are collecting new information on the virus as fast as possible; public health agencies are working to incorporate that new information into the guidelines they give the public. 

The problem is that messaging from public officials hasn’t done a good job of preparing people for those changes. Instead, the pandemic response in the US has been characterized by inconsistent messaging — notably, around masks and testing — without clear signals why policies might be changing. “That creates cumulative effect, which is to reduce credibility, lower trust, and foster confusion,” says Glen Nowak, director of the Center for Health and Risk Communication at the University of Georgia and former director of media relations at the CDC.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/3/21206728/cloth-face-masks-white-house-coronavirus-covid-cdc-messaging
From April of last year.

The White House’s coronavirus task force set itself up for a big messaging fail because it hadn’t laid the groundwork that would support changes in approach. “You have to prepare people for contradictions. Contradictions are what pandemics are all about,” says Rob Blair, an assistant professor of political science and international and public affairs at Brown University. 

“YOU HAVE TO PREPARE PEOPLE FOR CONTRADICTIONS. CONTRADICTIONS ARE WHAT PANDEMICS ARE ALL ABOUT.”

The CDC tried to do that: during press briefings in January and February, the agency noted that its guidance might change as the pandemic progressed. But recently, the CDC has been silent — the agency last held a press briefing on March 9th — and it’s been regularly undercut by comments from the White House.

[caulfield12]

This is the real reason why the CDC was handicapped from the very start...because Trump didn’t want any negative/alarming distractions during an election year.  After this and the test kit disaster and the failures from CDC, HHS and FDA leadership, there was nobody left but the Surgeon General, the US military and, gasp, Jared Kushner.  Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

 

In a February 25 press briefing at the White House, Messonnier warned of the impending community spread of the virus in the United States, stating: "Disruption to everyday life might be severe."[7][8] Following her comments during the February White House press briefing, she did not appear again at the briefing, and there was speculation that Messonnier had been "silenced" for her comments stressing the growing urgency of the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States.[9] On February 28, she said that the U.S. "acted incredibly quickly before most other countries. Aggressively controlled our borders and we were able to slow the spread into the United States. ...We have been testing aggressively."[10][11] While Messonnier no longer appeared in White House briefings, she continued giving regular CDC briefings, which were broadcast to the public, until April 2020, and she made public appearances in All Things Considered on NPR.[12][13]

On March 9, 2020 she cautioned those who were at high risk of severe illness, including the elderly and people with pre-existing conditions, to take cautionary measures such as stocking up on groceries and medications, and preparing to shelter in place for the foreseeable future.[14][15] She also addressed concerns around the CDC and FDA's failure to get working COVID-19 testing kits into the hands of public health officials in a timely manner to enable better containment of the disease and mitigation of its spread.[16] On January 21, 2020, she announced that the CDC had finalized its own COVID-19 test. On February 5, the CDC began distributing diagnostic tests to public-health laboratories; however, several of those tests had contaminated reagents, rendering them useless,[17]and leading to a major gap in fighting the outbreak.[16] The situation was exacerbated by FDA-imposed regulations on testing, making it difficult for independent development of COVID-19 tests to fill the CDC's distribution gap.[18]

On May 7, 2021 she told colleagues she was resigning from the CDC effective May 14, saying "now is the best time for me to transition to a new phase of my career." She said she would become executive director for pandemic and public health systems at the Skoll Foundation, based in Palo Alto, California.[19]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Messonnier

Of course, she also had to go because former Trump Attorney General Rod Rosenstein is/was her brother.

 

Something important here to consider as we struggle to get from 50% up to 70% (many more young people, Republicans, Hispanics, those with strong religious beliefs, those in rural or underserved areas.)

You may also consider what could be the much larger death rate than the current estimates and the prevalence and impact of long covid. The Economist’s model show that possibly 10 million have died and 14% of people who have caught covid suffering some form of long covid. Some/many seem to be focusing on statistically small concerns over US and UK vaccines which have all gone through rigorous trials vs the much larger health impacts of contracting Covid.

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2021/05/15/there-have-been-7m-13m-excess-deaths-worldwide-during-the-pandemic?utm_campaign=editorial-social&utm_medium=social-organic&utm_source=facebook&linkId=100000046117079&fbclid=IwAR3Iclm-TsXb-V1msdyMDu5S8RekrUzANJl-Di306oVcw560TRmTeNqlud0

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2021/04/29/researchers-are-closing-in-on-long-covid

Concerns of the “public good” (aka utilitarianism, the greatest good for the greatest number of people) based on rigorous science should be what we push as a society, or is it just the right of the individual simply to be a “free rider” and harm the public good based on a misunderstanding under the name of vague patriotic-sounding terms like autonomy/freedom which should be promoted in the US?

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

“White House defends Fauci amid attacks over newly released emails”
 

Here we go with the dreaded “smoking gun” e-mails again, that turn out to be no such thing...

https://www.yahoo.com/news/white-house-defends-fauci-amid-attacks-over-newly-released-emails-200636646.html

[StrangeSox]

These vaccines work incredibly well

 

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 hours ago, bmags said:

1. That you went so seamlessly from "fauci was following the scientific method on masks" to "yes we all knew about fauci lying about masks" to "fauci was right to lie about masks" makes me want to avoid spending too much time on this.

 

2. For some reason, it was very important to wash our hands. There wasn't a lot of info that we had of it spreading this way, but it was common sense to remove that layer of risk, so they were very clear: wash your hands.

But when it came to masks? Outdoor vs indoor? Continued to hedge that both posed risks of getting it, so really best advice is just to avoid. 

 

3. https://mackweldon.com/products/2-pack-silver-mask?

Check it out, an underwear company using the fabric they have available to layer and make masks. 

1. There was at that time, both incomplete science insofar as face coverings, AND a lack of supply.

2. You just described the DEVELOPING science of what was a NOVEL coronavirus. IOW, using the scientific method to adapt approaches as new information becomes researched, developed, and interpreted. Ya know, kinda like going from a "flat earth" model to later accepting a globe as the shape of the planet we inhabit. Or Copernicus discovering a heliocentric solar system. 

So using your "ex post facto" pseudo-analysis, using current facts to critique what fauci was doing then, doesn't really work.

3. And this is really important:

That mask you just posted is IMPORTED. IOW, not from the US of A, as you had claimed was so important earlier. There was and is not a sufficient supply chain for domestically produced cloth masks. There ain't a lot of clothing you or I wear that comes from this country. Kannapolis doesn't make fieldcrest towels any more. It ain't 1985 any more.

And that's one reason why we don't have a lot of folks wearing cloth masks, and really, why this wasn't a realistic alternative then, or now. Oh yeah, and why most folks, including health care types, use the cheap Chinese made types.

[bmags]

5 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. There was at that time, both incomplete science insofar as face coverings, AND a lack of supply.

2. You just described the DEVELOPING science of what was a NOVEL coronavirus. IOW, using the scientific method to adapt approaches as new information becomes researched, developed, and interpreted. Ya know, kinda like going from a "flat earth" model to later accepting a globe as the shape of the planet we inhabit. Or Copernicus discovering a heliocentric solar system. 

So using your "ex post facto" pseudo-analysis, using current facts to critique what fauci was doing then, doesn't really work.

3. And this is really important:

That mask you just posted is IMPORTED. IOW, not from the US of A, as you had claimed was so important earlier. There was and is not a sufficient supply chain for domestically produced cloth masks. There ain't a lot of clothing you or I wear that comes from this country. Kannapolis doesn't make fieldcrest towels any more. It ain't 1985 any more.

And that's one reason why we don't have a lot of folks wearing cloth masks, and really, why this wasn't a realistic alternative then, or now. Oh yeah, and why most folks, including health care types, use the cheap Chinese made types.

Ah yes, now he's trying the "it was the scientific method" greatest hits again. Fauci already admitted their rationale for not recommending masks was not scientific-method based. It had nothing to do with their evidence on the efficacy of masks, of which they already had proof of. 

From March 21, 2020: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-masks.html

From 2013: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_the_Efficacy_of_Homemade_Masks_Would_They_Protect_in_an_Influenza_Pandemic

^ Showed that homemade masks offered more protection than no masks at all. They at that point classified heavy droplets as the main vector of transmission, and had known that even homemade masks mitigated that transmission. 

They didn't need new information on how hand washing was effective against this NOVEL coronavirus to recommend it, but apparently even though there was well established previous research on the place of masks with influenza outbreaks, it was okay to mislead the public even knowing they'd have to reverse course in a month or so.

And the idea that the US wouldn't have been able to create non-surgical cloth masks because they import textiles is embarrassing. Medical grade PPE is a very specific process, indeed. When the whole world needed more and nearly all production of it was in China, that's not good.

But there is both millions of times more regular cloth to use for masks and garment factories could easily be repurposed to make them, as they did! Masks quickly became a new offering from many retailers. These same places likely couldn't have been easily retrofitted to make 3-ply surgical masks, but they can stitch two pieces of fabric together.

Everything is imported, even things that are domestic are made with imported components or built with imported components. China likely imports some of the materials for the masks they make. That surgical masks and N-95s would have been scarce was not just because they were imported.

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

1. Fauci already admitted their rationale for not recommending masks was not scientific-method based. It had nothing to do with their evidence on the efficacy of masks, of which they already had proof of. 

2. From 2013: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_the_Efficacy_of_Homemade_Masks_Would_They_Protect_in_an_Influenza_Pandemic

 

3.And the idea that the US wouldn't have been able to create non-surgical cloth masks because they import textiles is embarrassing. 

1. Yes, Fauci said that there wasn't a supply publicly available then. But he ALSO said that masks weren't 100% protective, which made him (then) cast doubts on their efficacy as a public health measure. See? People can have more than one idea at the same time. Especially a medical doctor.

 

2. You do know that different strains of influenza spread in different ways, right? In the same way, a new (or NOVEL) coronavirus might spread differently than other strains. Once the scientific community established the route and there was supply, they recommended their use.

As an aside, show us where Fauci, or any medical professional does NOT recommend hand washing, coronavirus or not. If you aren't washing your hands, you're a fool. 

 

3. And yet, you previously claimed that the US could produce all the cloth face coverings they need. (We can't. ) And then, you post a product that ain't even made here.

There aren't "millions of times" more factories here to make garments of any type in the US. We've become a nation that overwhelmingly imports our clothing. (And as you said, pretty much every other type of product.)

 

Say, by the way:

You promised us other examples of "lies told by Fauci." Lets see them.

 

Also, exactly what would anyone have done differently, when your boss recommends drinking bleach?

 

[StrangeSox]

Fauci admitted to slowly walking up the estimated 'herd immunity' stuff. 

 

Quote

What's new: "In a telephone interview," McNeil continues, "Fauci acknowledged that he had slowly but deliberately been moving the goalposts."

• "He is doing so, he said, partly based on new science, and partly on his gut feeling that the country is finally ready to hear what he really thinks."

By all accounts, he's been very good at his job at NIAID for a long time and is well-respected within the scientific community. At the same time, people in jobs like that and at agencies like that have professional comms teams for a reason. He's been pretty not great, to put it charitably, at various public comms things throughout the pandemic. Some of that is pressure from the top, some of that is his own fault. He definitely seems to enjoy the taste of celebrity he's gotten.

[bmags]

56 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. Yes, Fauci said that there wasn't a supply publicly available then. But he ALSO said that masks weren't 100% protective, which made him (then) cast doubts on their efficacy as a public health measure. See? People can have more than one idea at the same time. Especially a medical doctor.

 

2. You do know that different strains of influenza spread in different ways, right? In the same way, a new (or NOVEL) coronavirus might spread differently than other strains. Once the scientific community established the route and there was supply, they recommended their use.

As an aside, show us where Fauci, or any medical professional does NOT recommend hand washing, coronavirus or not. If you aren't washing your hands, you're a fool. 

 

3. And yet, you previously claimed that the US could produce all the cloth face coverings they need. (We can't. ) And then, you post a product that ain't even made here.

There aren't "millions of times" more factories here to make garments of any type in the US. We've become a nation that overwhelmingly imports our clothing. (And as you said, pretty much every other type of product.)

 

Say, by the way:

You promised us other examples of "lies told by Fauci." Lets see them.

 

Also, exactly what would anyone have done differently, when your boss recommends drinking bleach?

 

There are millions of times more factories globally to make generic cloth masks. And there is zero issue with the US importing them at the time, it was actually easier to import a good like that than it would be now because of the fact that throughout the pandemic the US was importing a SHIT TON more than it was exporting, so places like china were exporting shipping containers but not getting them back.

That you think there would be a shortage of cloth masks because there was a shortage of medical grade masks is embarrassing. 

Here is a way to think about this for you, explained in the condescending way you talk:

- Everybody wears clothes, so when everybody wants to wear a new type of clothes, it is very easy to suddenly produce and distribute clothes. 

- Only medical professionals and certain tradesman wear surgery masks or N95s, so if suddenly everyone wants surgery masks or N95, it is difficult because the capacity has not been built up to support that amount of production. New machines are needed, more material needs to be sourced.

That's not the case with cloth masks, which are just clothing. We have a lot of textiles in existence! 

27 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

Fauci admitted to slowly walking up the estimated 'herd immunity' stuff. 

 

By all accounts, he's been very good at his job at NIAID for a long time and is well-respected within the scientific community. At the same time, people in jobs like that and at agencies like that have professional comms teams for a reason. He's been pretty not great, to put it charitably, at various public comms things throughout the pandemic. Some of that is pressure from the top, some of that is his own fault. He definitely seems to enjoy the taste of celebrity he's gotten.

I think Fauci may have been worse on this national-scale crisis than when a public health crisis is hitting specific groups - he clearly has a history of listening and taking seriously marginalized groups not getting full attention of the state.

And that's really important.

But now that we know what a pandemic-threat looks like and how he performed, I just don't see how he is the best person to get the US to a place where we are much more prepared for the next one.

[caulfield12]

32 minutes ago, bmags said:

There are millions of times more factories globally to make generic cloth masks. And there is zero issue with the US importing them at the time, it was actually easier to import a good like that than it would be now because of the fact that throughout the pandemic the US was importing a SHIT TON more than it was exporting, so places like china were exporting shipping containers but not getting them back.

That you think there would be a shortage of cloth masks because there was a shortage of medical grade masks is embarrassing. 

Here is a way to think about this for you, explained in the condescending way you talk:

- Everybody wears clothes, so when everybody wants to wear a new type of clothes, it is very easy to suddenly produce and distribute clothes. 

- Only medical professionals and certain tradesman wear surgery masks or N95s, so if suddenly everyone wants surgery masks or N95, it is difficult because the capacity has not been built up to support that amount of production. New machines are needed, more material needs to be sourced.

That's not the case with cloth masks, which are just clothing. We have a lot of textiles in existence! 

I think Fauci may have been worse on this national-scale crisis than when a public health crisis is hitting specific groups - he clearly has a history of listening and taking seriously marginalized groups not getting full attention of the state.

And that's really important.

But now that we know what a pandemic-threat looks like and how he performed, I just don't see how he is the best person to get the US to a place where we are much more prepared for the next one.

Who is?  Monday Morning QBing after Trump ran roughshod over the government is fine, but you also have a responsibility to pick someone better suited, and not just due to age/prolonged tenure.

Maybe there’s an argument to be made for turning over many positions, as we learned with trusting Alan Greenspan too long due to past perforance.

[Two-Gun Pete]

39 minutes ago, bmags said:

1. There are millions of times more factories globally to make generic cloth masks. And there is zero issue with the US importing them at the time

2. Only medical professionals and certain tradesman wear surgery masks or N95s, so if suddenly everyone wants surgery masks or N95, it is difficult because the capacity has not been built up to support that amount of production. New machines are needed, more material needs to be sourced.

 

3. I think Fauci may have been worse on this national-scale crisis than when a public health crisis is hitting specific groups - he clearly has a history of listening and taking seriously marginalized groups not getting full attention of the state.

And that's really important.

But now that we know what a pandemic-threat looks like and how he performed, I just don't see how he is the best person to get the US to a place where we are much more prepared for the next one.

1. Earlier, you said that if only Fauci said we should wear masks, then they would suddenly be produced domestically. Now, after you posted an example of an imported mask, it was "ok to import them," during a worldwide pandemic, and shelter in place orders.

Make up your mind. Because if you're going to blame Fauci for not ramping up domestic production of cloth masks, then move the goalposts to "importing them is fine," then your overarching argument falls apart.

 

2. I think I understand where your confusion comes from when you read the phrase, "surgical mask." This is an example of a surgical mask: SURGICAL MASK

The blue or yellow thing with elastic earloops and an embedded wire for your nose. Those are and were the most common masks I've seen, both here in Chicago and other places I've been over the past year. They're also almost entirely from China, and were not in widespread circulation at the start of the pandemic.

Hell, there were folks working in Healthcare facilities and nursing homes that had a hard time getting these. Or, some had to procure their own. (I have clients that worked at Rush who had to buy some of their own and/or recycle a used one back then.)

 

3. I agree that mistakes were made, by Fauci and others. But, were still waiting to hear about all the other "lies Fauci told." (I'm also waiting to hear from rabbit how a guy appointed by Reagan suddenly became a capricious, self-serving partisan, despite decades of evidence to the contrary.)

Insofar as "preparation for the next pandemic" goes, the previous administration had one gifted to them:

PANDEMIC PLAN

If you didn't like that plan, and the lack of usage of it going into this pandemic, take it up with Mr. Bleach Injections. And sure, if there's an argument to replace Fauci with someone else, I'm also game to hear suggestions. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Who is?  Monday Morning QBing after Trump ran roughshod over the government is fine, but you also have a responsibility to pick someone better suited, and not just due to age/prolonged tenure.

Maybe there’s an argument to be made for turning over many positions, as we learned with trusting Alan Greenspan too long due to past perforance.

I'm not monday morning quarterbacking.

[bmags]

8 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

1. Earlier, you said that if only Fauci said we should wear masks, then they would suddenly be produced domestically. Now, after you posted an example of an imported mask, it was "ok to import them," during a worldwide pandemic, and shelter in place orders.

Make up your mind. Because if you're going to blame Fauci for not ramping up domestic production of cloth masks, then move the goalposts to "importing them is fine," then your overarching argument falls apart.

 

2. I think I understand where your confusion comes from when you read the phrase, "surgical mask." This is an example of a surgical mask: SURGICAL MASK

The blue or yellow thing with elastic earloops and an embedded wire for your nose. Those are and were the most common masks I've seen, both here in Chicago and other places I've been over the past year. They're also almost entirely from China, and were not in widespread circulation at the start of the pandemic.

Hell, there were folks working in Healthcare facilities and nursing homes that had a hard time getting these. Or, some had to procure their own. (I have clients that worked at Rush who had to buy some of their own and/or recycle a used one back then.)

 

3. I agree that mistakes were made, by Fauci and others. But, were still waiting to hear about all the other "lies Fauci told." (I'm also waiting to hear from rabbit how a guy appointed by Reagan suddenly became a capricious, self-serving partisan, despite decades of evidence to the contrary.)

Insofar as "preparation for the next pandemic" goes, the previous administration had one gifted to them:

PANDEMIC PLAN

If you didn't like that plan, and the lack of usage of it going into this pandemic, take it up with Mr. Bleach Injections. 

 

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

Fauci admitted to slowly walking up the estimated 'herd immunity' stuff. 

 

By all accounts, he's been very good at his job at NIAID for a long time and is well-respected within the scientific community. At the same time, people in jobs like that and at agencies like that have professional comms teams for a reason. He's been pretty not great, to put it charitably, at various public comms things throughout the pandemic. Some of that is pressure from the top, some of that is his own fault. He definitely seems to enjoy the taste of celebrity he's gotten.

twice (herd immunity, masks) Fauci admitted to telling incorrect information not due to "scientific method".

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

8 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Con artist?  Evidence?   Because that adjective fits a lot better with a self-serving president....so Fauci conned the American people into trusting him and became a billionaire and we just don’t know about it yet because of a mass conspiracy/coverup to protect him?   Wouldn’t the journalist that made that case (see Pete Schweitzer’s attempts) go on to....make millions off the allegations in the right-wing echo chamber, finding himself a constant guest on FOX News/Tucker Carlson favorite, etc.?

If you want a real health care con artist, try Elizabeth Holmes or Martin Shkreli.  Who works for the government in the agencies he has represented with hopes of getting rich?

Marjorie Taylor Greene has already raised millions more for her campaign coffers than Fauci has earned in his entire lifetime as a government employee. 

 

Not that they'll read this, but here we go:

Politifact Check on Fauci and masking

Politifact check on Faucis emails

Plus all of these from USATODAY

But hey, since some dude who wore a bow tie on tv told me so, a lifelong public servant and physician just must be a "Con artist," amirite?

Say, do braying shouters on TV have to take an oath of duty? Do physicians have to take some hippocratic sort of oath?

 

Just askin'....

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Two-Gun Pete

[StrangeSox]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

 

I think Fauci may have been worse on this national-scale crisis than when a public health crisis is hitting specific groups - he clearly has a history of listening and taking seriously marginalized groups not getting full attention of the state.

And that's really important.

But now that we know what a pandemic-threat looks like and how he performed, I just don't see how he is the best person to get the US to a place where we are much more prepared for the next one.

 NIAID is a lot more than just pandemics. Maybe he was great at leading NIAID for decades in general but we need someone else focused on pandemic preparedness at an assistant director level or something. That said dude's in his 70's so he probably doesn't have a ton of time left in the role anyway.

1 hour ago, raBBit said:

 

Amazing this government lifer,

Dedicating your life and expertise to public health and scientific research is noble, imo. Here, for example, is Kizzmekia Corbett. She has spent her career so far at NIAIH/NIH labs and her team was the one who developed the spike protein target in the Moderna vaccine in a matter of weeks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kizzmekia_Corbett

 

1 hour ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

So, here are excerpts from that link:

"...He is doing so, he said, partly based on new science, and partly on his gut feeling that the country is finally ready to hear what he really thinks."

"...We need to have some humility here .... We really don’t know what the real number is."

 

So, when a public health official gives an estimate, in your mind its "a lie?" And when its based on "new science," its "a lie?"

 

Again, I'm open to hear more, if you've got something on this issue.

The part you didn't bold and highlight, which I did quote previously, pretty clearly says he wasn't giving his full assessment to the public because he didn't think we were "ready" for it.

That's why there are comms professionals and people whose entire job is science communication specifically. There's a whole body of research on the most effective ways to message negative news. Constant doomerism doesn't work, but neither does deliberately underplaying it and regularly shifting expectations and projections.

Edited June 4, 2021 by StrangeSox