COVID-19/Coronavirus thread

[caulfield12]

The LameStream Media is the dominant force in trying to get me to keep our Country closed as long as possible in the hope that it will be detrimental to my election success. The real people want to get back to work ASAP. We will be stronger than ever before!

 

Let's consider the biggest problem here.  Forget about the media assaults on a daily basis, sometimes at individual reporters.   It's the idea of ONLY "real people" wanting to go back to work...and get everyone sick there and even kill someone they know, I guess.

So we are "pussies" or "wussies" if we stay at home and take care of our families?

And yet, throughout the last 30 years of American history, we've had Clinton, GW Bush and now Trump who went out of their way to avoid military service...Trump, after having spent his teenage years at a military academy.

I just feel sorry for EVERY REAL person who's on the front lines, doctors and nurses and psychologists all fighting to get the country through this crisis to the best of their ability.  They are selfless real people who go into an endless shift and spend the rest of their time recuperating at home, some not even being able to sleep because they're concerned about giving their patients the corona virus (because they're reusing masks and gowns due to shortages, or haven't been tested yet.)   Or simply the pressure of too many other doctors and nurses already being out (or dying, in many cases now in NYC), so they feel they have no choice but to keep reporting to work day after day until the peak has passed.

Edited March 26, 2020 by caulfield12

[StrangeSox]

18 minutes ago, pcq said:

Wait I just read a Twump where it was suggested the lockdown will be used as a political strategy by the blues. I hope not. Now it is being discussed whether hospitals end up issuing DNR orders for CV customers. Tough choices are looming. Wonder if any seniors will step up to ease the burden. 

here's the wapo article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/03/25/coronavirus-patients-do-not-resucitate/

if you get pay-walled just open in incognito mode

Hospitals on the front lines of the pandemic are engaged in a heated private debate over a calculation few have encountered in their lifetimes — how to weigh the “save at all costs” approach to resuscitating a dying patient against the real danger of exposing doctors and nurses to the contagion of coronavirus.

The conversations are driven by the realization that the risk to staff amid dwindling stores of protective equipment — such as masks, gowns and gloves — may be too great to justify the conventional response when a patient “codes,” and their heart or breathing stops.

Northwestern Memorial Hospital in Chicago has been discussing a do-not-resuscitate policy for infected patients, regardless of the wishes of the patient or their family members — a wrenching decision to prioritize the lives of the many over the one.

[Jenksismyhero]

10 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

1. It's not just the deaths of the elderly and the high risk population. There are plenty of "low-risk" people who die, so yes if you could somehow do what you're suggesting, you still kill hundreds of thousands this year rather than millions

2. It's not just the deaths. You are asking 10-20 million people or something like that to come down with very severe illnesses that hospitalize them for weeks, put them in medical care for weeks, kill extras because of the ventilators, there's not enough doctors trained in this country to do what you're proposing even if you could build enough hospitals quick enough. You can do that if the ill are in the tens of thousands, not tens of millions. This is why I mentioned the cancer patient. This is why I mentioned a person with a heart attack. How many heart attacks are there each year in this country? What does a heart attack victim do if the hospitals are full? They die.

3. There's no feasible way to do it, as if you let it burn through the 200 million "so-called healthy people" with a 0.2% chance of dying or whatever, then those people are going to go talk to their parents. They're going to buy food at the same grocery store as the others. They're going to the doctor. They're going to the pharmacy. You can't just say "Oh I'm sorry you can't go get your chemo drugs, you might die there's a virus" - the things that make them high risk will also kill them. 

4. You seem to think that there's some strategy here that avoids a "great depression" but what you just proposed is a great depression. 10-20 million people out of work for weeks at a time while they're ill. Health care bills in the tens of thousands of dollars for each of them. Hundreds of thousands of supposedly healthy people dead. And 1/3 of the population somehow permanently quarantined for a year. This is another great depression. 

5. Frankly, if you gave me the choice, I would live off my savings for a year and say *bleep* you to your plan even if I was 100% healthy. So even if another 25% of the population revolts against this plan, now you've got 1/2 of the population either sick or refusing to participate or under your mandatory quarantine.

6. Please note that the "extremely well respected" people you are referring to think that every version of what you're saying is horrifying and unworkable.  

There is 1 setup out there to avoid your feared depression that has been proposed. It is "shut everything down right now immediately". Beat the peak down, as we have seen at least 4 countries do including China. Then, extremely aggressive testing and tracing - as we should have been doing in February when the government was frittering. It can work, it can get some things back to semi-normal. That's the only thing people have come up with.

I don't believe for a second China has beat this or has it under control. There are probably thousands or tens of thousands of bodies buried somewhere. The country that lied about this to start is now telling us the truth on their numbers? No chance.

[mqr]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

IDK seems like a pretty bad time for Congress to take a month off

It is. 

But on the other hand, since we have no provisions for remote voting, and congressmen testing positive, every time the get together is asking for chaos to ensue. 

[Balta1701]

12 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I am not saying that is my proposal but to ignore the fact that the discussions I outlay aren't taking place and being looked at by the advanced medical community would be absurd . Even you are posting articles indicating potential likelihood that this likely is a 2 year journey and very well might still get to the point where all of the above happens (but just in a different timing and sequence).   Everything isn't as black and white as any of us would like. 

By the way. My personal view is we should have locked everything down 2 weeks ago and I personally have been doing exactly that. The problem is, the longer we play in between, I think we end up with the worse possible outcome.  I think as a society we should just hit the pause button across the globe, with exception of truly essential processes, and knock the shit out of this entire bug.  Than just aggressively test and manage but you can do it with precision (i.e,. if my neighborhood/city was impacted...we'd quickly be isolated for a bit until it was put out).  And after this...lets all be a lot smarter cause for worse things than COVID could hit us and this just proves how not ready we are for a global pandemic.  

I also think there is a lot of data people likely need to better understand out of China, Italy, Spain, US etc. Right now inferences and educated hypothesis are being made. To assume otherwise is not realistic.  And I don't believe a lot of reports on the counts (at all). The only report I believe is Deaths/Hospitalizations. Its the one data point you really can't fake.  In fact, I would go as far as to say only good news could come up in terms of counts, because the only direction they could be off is if the historical bad flu that was being experienced this year across the globe (not necessarily in deaths, but in volumes) was being over-reported as the flu.  

Only other points I'd add are:

1. Those discussions have taken place in the bio-medical community and that's why we're trying to convince people to lock stuff down, because it's the least bad option.

2. I'm on record in this thread on March 3rd saying "OMG we're completely screwed we need to shut the doors of everything in California and Washington right now".

3. And yes, every time our President says "we need to get people back to work!" or every time the governor of Florida says "The beaches are open", we are heading towards a worst case scenario. I've seen epidemiologists say "this kind of lunacy, of refusal to follow these orders was something we never modeled".

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Jenksismyhero said:

I don't believe for a second China has beat this or has it under control. There are probably thousands or tens of thousands of bodies buried somewhere. The country that lied about this to start is now telling us the truth on their numbers? No chance.

I think China has this decently under control right now. There could absolutely be more bodies, but the hospital videos are hard to block. When you've got an overwhelmed hospital, people are coming and going, and there's no information control on that. 

There is no guarantee they could not lose control again, but the strategy is out there. Lock down, beat it into submission, then "test test test test test". Test the underpriviledged. Test the people you don't like. Test everyone they come into contact with. All free from the government. You're hungover? Here's an aspirin and a COVID-19 test, don't ask why just take it. It can work. 

[Moan4Yoan]

33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I think China has this decently under control right now. There could absolutely be more bodies, but the hospital videos are hard to block. When you've got an overwhelmed hospital, people are coming and going, and there's no information control on that. 

There is no guarantee they could not lose control again, but the strategy is out there. Lock down, beat it into submission, then "test test test test test". Test the underpriviledged. Test the people you don't like. Test everyone they come into contact with. All free from the government. You're hungover? Here's an aspirin and a COVID-19 test, don't ask why just take it. It can work. 

You realize that China is a country just like Russia in which they make their problems disappear right?

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

You realize that China is a country just like Russia in which they make their problems disappear right?

 

[mqr]

Apropos of nothing, a 101 year old in Italy recovered from corona, after having survived the Spanish flu as an infant. Tough old bastard. 

[caulfield12]

14 hours ago, bmags said:

Nobody was pushing Kasich ever, and you'd be referring to the Lieberman idea in 2008, Lieberman was a democrat along with Gore in 2000.

Hickenlooper....so called unity ticket.

[ron883]

21 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

You really trust China to accurately report these things? ??

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

You really trust China to accurately report these things? ??

 

[ron883]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

They seem to do a fairly good job of limiting the amount of videos taken. People who record the videos usually disappear shortly after...

[StrangeSox]

The CCP was not accurately reporting things early on, but information still got out thanks to ubiquitous phone cameras. We aren't seeing that same sort of underground info leaking out right now.

[Kyyle23]

6 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

They seem to do a fairly good job of limiting the amount of videos taken. People who record the videos usually disappear shortly after...

Words I never thought I would ever type but here goes:

 

Do you trust Caulfield on the subject?   Dude is right in the middle of it and has been quite a bit more optimistic recently about everything 

[Moan4Yoan]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

I think China has this decently under control right now. There could absolutely be more bodies, but the hospital videos are hard to block. When you've got an overwhelmed hospital, people are coming and going, and there's no information control on that. 

There is no guarantee they could not lose control again, but the strategy is out there. Lock down, beat it into submission, then "test test test test test". Test the underpriviledged. Test the people you don't like. Test everyone they come into contact with. All free from the government. You're hungover? Here's an aspirin and a COVID-19 test, don't ask why just take it. It can work. 

Test the underprivileged and people you don’t like?  Sounds like a great plan.  That type of thinking is what led to this...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Edited March 26, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[mqr]

1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said:

 Test the underprivileged and people you don’t like?  Sounds like a great plan...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Is the implication here that poor people should not be tested?

[Kyyle23]

Hmmmm I think the test for coronavirus is a bit different than the tests the nazis ran

[YoYoIsMyHero]

3 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Test the underprivileged and people you don’t like?  Sounds like a great plan.  That type of thinking is what led to this...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

What kind of an abomination of a post is this supposed to be?

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, mqr said:

Is the implication here that poor people should not be tested?

Just to stress for reality, it's extremely important that we're testing the homeless, prisoners, people working 2 jobs/people without health insurance, immigrants, because after we get through this, those are the populations where this could continue simmering undetected. Homeless person sitting on a bench, person working 2 jobs with no insurance - those types of people could easily become spreaders and if they can't go to the doctor, that breaks our ability to trace them. 

[NorthSideSox72]

I really wish people would stop discussing the restriction timelines as if it was economy versus lives. That is a totally false choice. The economy is going to be in the crapper for at least weeks and likely months, no matter what. The questions really are A) how many lives do we want to lose and B) when the recovery can actually begin. Once you look at the true question that way, it becomes obvious we need to get serious about the lockdown right the hell now, as an entire nation. That not only will save lives, it will also mean we can get through this and move on faster.

 

[mqr]

Just now, NorthSideSox72 said:

I really wish people would stop discussing the restriction timelines as if it was economy versus lives. That is a totally false choice. The economy is going to be in the crapper for at least weeks and likely months, no matter what. The questions really are A) how many lives do we want to lose and B) when the recovery can actually begin. Once you look at the true question that way, it becomes obvious we need to get serious about the lockdown right the hell now, as an entire nation. That not only will save lives, it will also mean we can get through this and move on faster.

 

I agree with everything except the move on faster point. We bungled containment, if it was possible at all. Now the goal is to make it last as long as possible. If we do nothing it'll be over quicker, but with orders of magnitude more bodies and all sorts of failed infrastructure. 

I can't fathom how anyone believes the economy can function with people just dropping dead all over the place though. 

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, mqr said:

I agree with everything except the move on faster point. We bungled containment, if it was possible at all. Now the goal is to make it last as long as possible. If we do nothing it'll be over quicker, but with orders of magnitude more bodies and all sorts of failed infrastructure. 

I can't fathom how anyone believes the economy can function with people just dropping dead all over the place though. 

honestly, no it won't, because even if we did nothing, we don't hit the peak of cases until June or July per the Imperial college study, so the death and destruction option lasts a good 6 months.

[YoYoIsMyHero]

Approval ratings for leaders around the world are spiking since the pandemic was declared (well, most)

[Texsox]

What doesn't make sense to me is a on - off switch to work. I do see returning to work looking more like a wave. Perhaps NY gets back first since they are getting hit hard first. Perhaps by the time we're talking lifting the restrictions, even partially, we will have a better handle on who would be the better choice and have some sort of back to work priority. Young to old. Maybe a test to confirm you had the virus and are now healthy.