SonofaRoache Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 13 hours ago, poppysox said: Perhaps I am not clear. In most cases a player will join his team for 3 pre-arb years where he is only owed league minimum and 3 years of arbitration eligibility. A total of 6 years where his team has control of his services. He can then become a FA after serving those 6 years of team control. An agreement can be reached between team and player at any time to extend the years of team control for whatever the two parties agree to. What I have been trying to say...if we have been unable to reach that agreement by the time we complete 4 of the 6 years years of control... it's time to trade him while still getting back top value. If you wait until you have two months of control as was the case with Machado...you have greatly diminished his trade value. Closer to home...I believe Moncada has used up 2 of the 6 years where we have control. I hope and expect every effort is being made to extend the 4 years of control we have remaining by offering very fair compensation to buy out lets say 3 or 4 additional years. The arbitration process will reward Yoan very nice money if he just goes that route lets say 18-20 and 22 million (just wild numbers). He would be set to make over 60 million and then be a FA. You need to offer something North of 170 in all probability. The value Yoan puts on security (a bird in the hand) if he were to get injured vs how much discount the FO gets for giving him that security. Every year Yoan performs well the price of those additional years goes up but if he gets hurt between now and signing an extension...he loses millions. I stand by my opinion that by the time we use up 2 more years...if we haven't extended Moncada...it would be time to trade him while he would net the largest haul. By the way...there is no law that you trade for prospects instead of Major Leaguers. Lastly, you are hung up on Baltimore and the WS are in very different situations. The same principles apply. Baltimore was not going to ever make a deal to extend with Machado. They should have traded him with two years remaining. Their haul would have been far more substantial. Boston and Betts are having the same issues at play now. Boston wants a big haul because he's an excellent player but with only one year of control. I agree with this except for the part about trading for major leaguers. Yoan will only be coveted by good teams trying to win titles if we were to trade him in 2 years. Or teams, on the brink of going for it. These teams will not trade major league talent unless it is a player they don't want anyway. Case in point, if we wanted Mookie, we aren't trading Tim Anderson or Eloy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said: I agree with this except for the part about trading for major leaguers. Yoan will only be coveted by good teams trying to win titles if we were to trade him in 2 years. Or teams, on the brink of going for it. These teams will not trade major league talent unless it is a player they don't want anyway. Case in point, if we wanted Mookie, we aren't trading Tim Anderson or Eloy. You mean like the Sox (hypothetically), a team in which he already plays for? Edited January 31, 2020 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 13 hours ago, poppysox said: I can't think of 1 poster who favors perpetual rebuild. You do need an awareness of the financial ramifications of being unwilling to make tough decisions. If a player is part of our championship runs...I have every confidence that RH will make every effort to extend them. Believe me when I say that I want Moncada, Madrigal, Gio, Kopech, Cease and others to join Robert, Anderson and Eloy for this fun ride. It's been brought up multiple times over the past few months that the Sox should sell high on Moncada now for prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 26 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: It's been brought up multiple times over the past few months that the Sox should sell high on Moncada now for prospects. I don't remember any poster saying sell Moncada now. By the time we hit two more years...if he is not extended by then...better start thinking along those lines however. I fully believe that Moncada and for that matter Kopech, Cease, Madrigal and Gio will be extended well short of the two year from free agency if they continue to perform. RH has shown his every inclination is to extend these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, poppysox said: I don't remember any poster saying sell Moncada now. By the time we hit two more years...if he is not extended by then...better start thinking along those lines however. I fully believe that Moncada and for that matter Kopech, Cease, Madrigal and Gio will be extended well short of the two year from free agency if they continue to perform. RH has shown his every inclination is to extend these guys. If we are in the middle of our contention window, Moncada being an important piece, why would you do that? Edited January 31, 2020 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 48 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said: I agree with this except for the part about trading for major leaguers. Yoan will only be coveted by good teams trying to win titles if we were to trade him in 2 years. Or teams, on the brink of going for it. These teams will not trade major league talent unless it is a player they don't want anyway. Case in point, if we wanted Mookie, we aren't trading Tim Anderson or Eloy. Players can be traded from areas of strength in order to acquire for area of need. The Dodgers have more outfielders than they need for example...would they trade a major league outfielder for a major league pitcher? Probably if the right deal presents itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, poppysox said: Players can be traded from areas of strength in order to acquire for area of need. The Dodgers have more outfielders than they need for example...would they trade a major league outfielder for a major league pitcher? Probably if the right deal presents itself. But if Moncada is the only 3B in the organization with no depth behind him, then you're not dealing from a position of strength like the Dodgers example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: If we are in the middle of our contention window, Moncada being an important piece, why would you do that? Teams that handle this situation well are perpetually in a contention window. Amazing how some teams lose a stud and they have a great player waiting to fill that gap. The Mookie Betts situation is something I want to avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, poppysox said: Teams that handle this situation well are perpetually in a contention window. Amazing how some teams lose a stud and they have a great player waiting to fill that gap. The Mookie Betts situation is something I want to avoid. What situation exactly? lol they have 2 teams in the same division currently bidding on his services. And if they had traded him with 2 years of control left, that would have been right after their World Series win. How well do you think that would have gone over with the team and fans? Edited January 31, 2020 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: But if Moncada is the only 3B in the organization with no depth behind him, then you're not dealing from a position of strength like the Dodgers example. We better extend Moncada before that situation occurs. This is the situation RH was trying to explain when he was warning us that overpaying for Harper and Machado would limit his ability to keep our Moncada types. His extending Robert proves to me he is handling this stuff correctly IMO. The GM job isn't easy. This whole subject is why I'm not nuts about the Dombrowski type GM. They splurge on free agents and max out payrolls. Maybe they win a championship or maybe they don't. Almost always what they leave is in a shambles. Constant contention should be the FO goal IMO. My preference is to use free agency to plug holes while developing and trading for your core players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: What situation exactly? lol they have 2 teams in the same division currently bidding on his services. And if they had traded him with 2 years of control left, that would have been right after their World Series win. How well do you think that would have gone over with the team and fans? Ask yourself what you would give from our major league club for 1 year of Betts. How much for two years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, soxfan2014 said: You mean like the Sox (hypothetically), a team in which he already plays for? My comment is in reference to if we must trade him. Of course we'd be a good team that wants him, but if we cannot agree to a deal and need to trade him, our options will be good teams that are willing to pay him the arbitration money and a meal deal possibly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, poppysox said: Ask yourself what you would give from our major league club for 1 year of Betts. How much for two years? 30 minutes ago, poppysox said: Players can be traded from areas of strength in order to acquire for area of need. The Dodgers have more outfielders than they need for example...would they trade a major league outfielder for a major league pitcher? Probably if the right deal presents itself. Yea, but they are trading a guy that is not as valuable to them because it is a strength. And it is typically the guy who is older or the guy they value less. The position being traded would also have to align with a positional need for us. Like we wouldn't trade Yoan for SS, 1B, or Catcher with 4 years of control left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonofaRoache Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 7 minutes ago, poppysox said: Ask yourself what you would give from our major league club for 1 year of Betts. How much for two years? To be honest I would give nothing for those 2 years at that price. We'd be creating a hole while filling one. The only consideration would have been Abreu, but the players we currently have would probably be pissed about that. Boston wouldn't want Rodon or Lopez as headliners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said: Yea, but they are trading a guy that is not as valuable to them because it is a strength. And it is typically the guy who is older or the guy they value less. The position being traded would also have to align with a positional need for us. Like we wouldn't trade Yoan for SS, 1B, or Catcher with 4 years of control left. True...you do need to find the team with assets that line up with your needs. If it was easy we would all be qualified to do Rick Hahn's job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 Why are you dopes talking about trading Moncada? What is wrong with you people? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Why are you dopes talking about trading Moncada? What is wrong with you people? The discussion was originally about extensions and where they fit in to the current 6 years of control system currently in place. Moncada was used as an example and there you go. No one is actually talking about trading Moncada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, poppysox said: The discussion was originally about extensions and where they fit in to the current 6 years of control system currently in place. Moncada was used as an example and there you go. No one is actually talking about trading Moncada. You're saying absolutely trade him with 2 years left if we can't extend him. Therefore you are talking about trading him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Why are you dopes talking about trading Moncada? What is wrong with you people? THANK YOU! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: You're saying absolutely trade him with 2 years left if we can't extend him. Therefore you are talking about trading him. You are being obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 17 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Why are you dopes talking about trading Moncada? What is wrong with you people? Why are the Cubs talking about trading Bryant? Why are the Indians talking about trading Lindor? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, poppysox said: Perhaps I am not clear. In most cases a player will join his team for 3 pre-arb years where he is only owed league minimum and 3 years of arbitration eligibility. A total of 6 years where his team has control of his services. He can then become a FA after serving those 6 years of team control. An agreement can be reached between team and player at any time to extend the years of team control for whatever the two parties agree to. What I have been trying to say...if we have been unable to reach that agreement by the time we complete 4 of the 6 years years of control... it's time to trade him while still getting back top value. If you wait until you have two months of control as was the case with Machado...you have greatly diminished his trade value. Closer to home...I believe Moncada has used up 2 of the 6 years where we have control. I hope and expect every effort is being made to extend the 4 years of control we have remaining by offering very fair compensation to buy out lets say 3 or 4 additional years. The arbitration process will reward Yoan very nice money if he just goes that route lets say 18-20 and 22 million (just wild numbers). He would be set to make over 60 million and then be a FA. You need to offer something North of 170 in all probability. The value Yoan puts on security (a bird in the hand) if he were to get injured vs how much discount the FO gets for giving him that security. Every year Yoan performs well the price of those additional years goes up but if he gets hurt between now and signing an extension...he loses millions. I stand by my opinion that by the time we use up 2 more years...if we haven't extended Moncada...it would be time to trade him while he would net the largest haul. By the way...there is no law that you trade for prospects instead of Major Leaguers. Lastly, you are hung up on Baltimore and the WS are in very different situations. The same principles apply. Baltimore was not going to ever make a deal to extend with Machado. They should have traded him with two years remaining. Their haul would have been far more substantial. Boston and Betts are having the same issues at play now. Boston wants a big haul because he's an excellent player but with only one year of control. You literally say right here that if they havent extended him by year 4, they need to trade him. What the hell has happened to baseball fanhood? The White Sox aren't poor and if they become more successful, they'll be one of baseballs most profitable franchises. There is zero excuse for the White Sox to lose their best player due to financial limitations and any fans promoting that as OK, or good strategy, has absolutely lost their mind and way ad a fan. I love data. I love analytics. I love the implementation of it in baseball. I absolutely hate the fans that view every single thing transacationally and excuse front offices and ownership groups for not ponying up when the time comes. I'm a white sox fan. I love watching Yoan Moncada play. I dont excuse or accept the team I am rooting for trading a star in the name of maximizing return under the guise that we "can't afford him." Its a joke and I'll never ever accept ownership telling me I can only have nice things for 6 years. This conversation is laughable. Theres no excuse for it. Edited January 31, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: You literally say right here that if they havent extended him by year 4, they need to trade him. What the hell has happened to baseball manhood? The White Sox aren't poor and if they become more successful, they'll be one of baseballs most profitable franchises. There is zero excuse for the White Sox to lose their best player due to financial limitations and any fans promoting that as OK, or good strategy, has absolutely lost their mind and way ad a fan. I love data. I love analytics. I love the implementation of it in baseball. I absolutely hate the fans that view every single thing transacationally and excuse front offices and ownership groups for not ponying up when the time comes. I'm a white sox fan. I love watching Yoan Moncada play. I dont excuse or accept the team I am rooting for trading a star in the name of maximizing return under the guise that we "can't afford him." Its a joke and I'll never ever accept ownership telling me I can only have nice things for 6 years. This conversation is laughable. You may think it’s laughable but it is the new reality. It can also be smart for the organization if executed properly. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/mlb/2020/1/2/21046706/mlb-trade-rumors-francisco-lindor-mookie-betts-kris-bryant-nolan-arenado Who says no in a deal with the Dodgers - Moncada for Lux, May, and Gray? The fact remains that finding young MLB ready talent like those three in exchange for Moncada who hits in 2023 aligns MUCH better with the CWS contention window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: You may think it’s laughable but it is the new reality. It can also be smart for the organization if executed properly. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/mlb/2020/1/2/21046706/mlb-trade-rumors-francisco-lindor-mookie-betts-kris-bryant-nolan-arenado Who says no in a deal with the Dodgers - Moncada for Lux, May, and Gray? The fact remains that finding young MLB ready talent like those three in exchange for Moncada who hits in 2023 aligns MUCH better with the CWS contention window. Not yet to .500 but time to worry about losing our core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted January 31, 2020 Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: You may think it’s laughable but it is the new reality. It can also be smart for the organization if executed properly. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/mlb/2020/1/2/21046706/mlb-trade-rumors-francisco-lindor-mookie-betts-kris-bryant-nolan-arenado Who says no in a deal with the Dodgers - Moncada for Lux, May, and Gray? The fact remains that finding young MLB ready talent like those three in exchange for Moncada who hits in 2023 aligns MUCH better with the CWS contention window. 1. No, it's not the new reality at all. It's only the new reality if you want to accept billionaires crying poor with unprecedented revenue gains year over year going on a decade! 2. The Red Sox and Cubs should be flat out EMBARRASSED that they are crying poor and potentially moving on from two HOF caliber players. Absolutely embarrassed. 3. Please stop with your nonsense. This is nauseating to read. Absolutely amazing to watch fans carry weight for ownership groups and their propagandist bullshit pertaining to player salaries and paying your guys what they're worth. If you can't afford to keep one of the best employees in your market, then you should get out of the game. Period. Edited January 31, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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