Betts to Dodgers

[Moan4Yoan]

6 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You arent reading it correctly. He isn't saying mazara doesn't have faults, he's saying Pederson does and people are far over valuing him for this trade. 

Mazara has far more faults than Joc so it really isn’t a good argument — can’t hit lefties, doesn’t walk much, can’t play defense well, and couldn’t put up big power numbers at a hitter’s haven (only hit 20 HR each year).

Edited February 5, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Mazara has far more faults than Joc so it really isn’t a good argument — can’t hit lefties, doesn’t walk much, can’t play defense well, and couldn’t put up big power numbers at a hitter’s haven (only 20 HR a year).

Again, you are missing the point. Stop trying to compare the 2 players. I know you are looking to boast the Sox FO as much as you can. However the entire point is the value of pederson for what the angels are giving up. It his value in this trade. Mazara is not involved in this trade.

[Moan4Yoan]

14 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Again, you are missing the point. Stop trying to compare the 2 players. I know you are looking to boast the Sox FO as much as you can. However the entire point is the value of pederson for what the angels are giving up. It his value in this trade. Mazara is not involved in this trade.

Why can we not make such a comparison?  The Sox have been interested in both outfielders for the past two years.  We have seen both names linked to the Sox in the media!  Where have you been?  A lefty corner outfielder was one of Hahn’s targets this entire offseason.  Guess what?  We can compare both of them to Kole Calhoun as well if we want to!  There’s no doubt that Hahn and company discussed all three players and more.

The fact is, Joc is a better player than Mazara.  Mazara has one more year of control before free agency but that doesn’t mean much unless he breaks out.

If the price is as low as it initially looks for the Angels getting Joc and a starter out of this deal, yeah it would suck.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Why can we not make such a comparison?  The Sox have been interested in both outfielders for the past two years.  We have seen both names linked to the Sox in the media!  Where have you been?

The fact is, Joc is a better player than Mazara.  Mazara has one more year of control before free agency but that doesn’t mean much unless he breaks out.

If the price is as low as it initially looks for the Angels getting Joc and a starter out of this deal, yeah it would suck.

You can do that if you want, that's my point. You turned a comment by someone that pederson is a flawed played and said he is better than Mazara. I dont think anyone would disagree that is is currently true but you seem to turn every conversation to it.

[Moan4Yoan]

4 minutes ago, ptatc said:

You can do that if you want, that's my point. You turned a comment by someone that pederson is a flawed played and said he is better than Mazara. I dont think anyone would disagree that is is currently true but you seem to turn every conversation to it.

Go back and read his post again.  He mentioned Mazara twice in the very post you are referencing.  So it’s okay for him to make the comparison but not me?  Wow.  ?

 

2 hours ago, hi8is said:

We realize Joc Peterson can’t hit LHP, right? Due to his defense he’s currently better than Mazara but let’s not pretend he isn’t a flawed player in his own right.

Roll the dice with Mazara... take a look at right field next year along with the state of our rotation and bullpen.

Sounds good to me. Other teams are gonna do their thing too. Just gotta keep rolling.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[ptatc]

9 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Go back and read his post again.  He mentioned Mazara twice in the very post you are referencing.  So it’s okay for him to make the comparison but not me?  Wow.  ?

 

 

If you would stick to the point if the post of Pederson's value, yes. However twisting into the Sox FO again gets a little tiresome.

But it's a Sox board so have at it.

[Moan4Yoan]

9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

If you would stick to the point if the post of Pederson's value, yes. However twisting into the Sox FO again gets a little tiresome.

But it's a Sox board so have at it.

I liked every move the Sox made this offseason except for Mazara.  You can’t argue that there weren’t better options available and it seems like the Sox settled on Mazara early.  It’s not like I am complaining that the Sox didn’t acquire Betts here.  But both Mazara and Joc were realistic options to acquire and the Sox were interested in both.  Of course comparisons will be made between the two.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Moan4Yoan

[soxfan49]

9 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

It could be a good gamble. I feel like I'm the only Sox fan bullish on Mazara. 

Again, if they can get Mazara hitting fly balls he's going to absolutely rake. 

I'm with you

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

18 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

I'm with you

I am also with Jack here.  A certain buy low guy. If nothing happens, who it's fine.  He will still be one of the best #8 hitters if nothing else. But he also has a chance (albeit small) to explode.  Joc is who Joc is.  Joc > Mazara obviously.. But Mazara's ceiling > Joc.
 

[Bob Sacamano]

Just now, cjgalloway said:

I am also with Jack here.  A certain buy low guy. If nothing happens, who it's fine.  He will still be one of the best #8 hitters if nothing else. But he also has a chance (albeit small) to explode.  Joc is who Joc is.  Joc > Mazara obviously.. But Mazara's ceiling > Joc.
 

Agreed with everything here. Not a bad spot to be in to have another team's number 4 hitter in our 8 spot.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

The deal for Maeda feels weird by the Twins. I wasn't as high on Gatreol as some, but Maeda isn't exactly a work horse (probably has a similar innings cap) and while he's been effective, its been in a very unique way due to creative usage by the Dodgers. He's a nice piece, but it seems like the Twins gave up a lot and actually may have hurt their roster 2-3 years from now for a, hopefully, short term upgrade.

The Twins obviously didn't like him as much as the market.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I cant get over how embarrassing and shitty this is for the Red Sox. What an absolute clown show for them. 

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I cant get over how embarrassing and shitty this is for the Red Sox. What an absolute clown show for them. 

Yeah it sucks, but they can always try to re-sign him next year. I don't think he'll be close to what he is asking for from them to sign now and they could be in on the bidding.

Edited February 5, 2020 by soxfan2014

[ptatc]

27 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I liked every move the Sox made this offseason except for Mazara.  You can’t argue that there weren’t better options available and it seems like the Sox settled on Mazara early.  It’s not like I am complaining that the Sox didn’t acquire Betts here.  But both Mazara and Joc were realistic options to acquire and the Sox were interested in both.  Of course comparisons will be made between the two.

Better option at what price that is the key factors. Pederson was not an option at the time. He was recently but it's not worth the extra capital. As the original poster said, pederson has flaws as well and you are over valuing him based on what the Sox acquired which has nothing to do with his value to the Angels. 

[oldsox]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I cant get over how embarrassing and shitty this is for the Red Sox. What an absolute clown show for them. 

Is this another Red Sox curse after giving Babe to the Yanks?

[ptatc]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I cant get over how embarrassing and shitty this is for the Red Sox. What an absolute clown show for them. 

No doubt. I can understand their concept of staying under the cap and getting rid of the awful contract for price but sacrificing Betts seems like a bad way to do it.

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, oldsox said:

Is this another Red Sox curse after giving Babe to the Yanks?

At least the trade wasn't done to fund a theater play.

[TomPickle]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The deal for Maeda feels weird by the Twins. I wasn't as high on Gatreol as some, but Maeda isn't exactly a work horse (probably has a similar innings cap) and while he's been effective, its been in a very unique way due to creative usage by the Dodgers. He's a nice piece, but it seems like the Twins gave up a lot and actually may have hurt their roster 2-3 years from now for a, hopefully, short term upgrade.

The Twins are pretty good at using pitchers in non-traditional ways. Or at the very least they seem to realize players limitations and don't ask them to do more than that, like Odorizzi not being asked to go a third time through the order. They have a competitive window right now so it makes sense to try to improve their team in the short term. I wouldn't love it if the White Sox had traded Dylan Cease for Maeda, who is at least a somewhat comparable piece, but I get why they made the move.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

16 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

Yeah it sucks, but they can always try to re-sign him next year. I don't think he'll be close to what he is asking for from them to sign now and they could be in on the bidding.

This doesnt show the red sox are serious about signing him imo. They have released excuse after excuse... PR hits blaming the player and yada yada. 

Fact is this team could pay 40 million in lux tax and still turn a profit. The Red Sox are a clown show. If the Sox trade a HOF'er in his prime because they dont want to pay him I'll be the first person ripping into this front office.

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, TomPickle said:

The Twins are pretty good at using pitchers in non-traditional ways. Or at the very least they seem to realize players limitations and don't ask them to do more than that, like Odorizzi not being asked to go a third time through the order. They have a competitive window right now so it makes sense to try to improve their team in the short term. I wouldn't love it if the White Sox had traded Dylan Cease for Maeda, who is at least a somewhat comparable piece, but I get why they made the move.

I agree. I still think that's a tough price to pay and there is a bit of "if you were shopping around this guy was this the best you could get?" but the twins proved a lot last year at getting darn near everyone to perform. So I'll give them benefit of doubt.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

20 minutes ago, TomPickle said:

The Twins are pretty good at using pitchers in non-traditional ways. Or at the very least they seem to realize players limitations and don't ask them to do more than that, like Odorizzi not being asked to go a third time through the order. They have a competitive window right now so it makes sense to try to improve their team in the short term. I wouldn't love it if the White Sox had traded Dylan Cease for Maeda, who is at least a somewhat comparable piece, but I get why they made the move.

I get it; they felt the pressure and frankly didn't have a starting 5 to begin the season with. They weren't sold he wasn't a reliever either, which helped make their decision I'm sure, but Maeda just feels better as a guy you don't HAVE to rely on. I wasn't a big fan when he came over, and he's proven me wrong 100% so far, but I worry about his transition to the AL. 

One thing that may benefit Maeda is he isn't being dicked around anymore, but he's also not anywhere near as cheap as he appears on the surface. As a starter, he's going to earn a decent payday. 

I think Cease is a slightly bigger prospect than Graterol, but I think that's a fair comp and it's splitting hairs. Graterol is so young too and already at the MLB level; it feels incredibly risky to move a piece like that for someone who isn't all that proven/reliable to be a 30 start starter. I truthfully believe that had the White Sox not made substantial moves this off-season, that the Twins wouldn't have made this move. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

The Red Sox are going to feel this one; you don't trade a generational talent in a pure salary dump without receiving some blow back. With the exception of Chapman, we just don't see a lot of guys traded and then re-signed by the team who traded him. Betts is done in Boston, and I wouldn't at all be shocked to see the Dodgers sign him; assuming he has a Mookie-like year.

[Bob Sacamano]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

The Red Sox are going to feel this one; you don't trade a generational talent in a pure salary dump without receiving some blow back. With the exception of Chapman, we just don't see a lot of guys traded and then re-signed by the team who traded him. Betts is done in Boston, and I wouldn't at all be shocked to see the Dodgers sign him; assuming he has a Mookie-like year.

Yeah I'm thinking Dodgers sign him long term. Either extend in season or next next offseason.

[he gone.]

My takeaways:

 

What's the equivalent of Verdugo in our system? Would you say Madrigal? I feel like the Verdugo, Madrigal, Bientiendi, etc. of the world are kinda one of the same in a way -- like - good baseball players, important pieces to championship rosters, but kind of replaceable in the same right. Like the ceiling isn't Robert, but the floor is also still a very good player. So just for my sake - would have I traded Madrigal for one year of Betts (with the unlikely shot we convince him to sign before FA) + David Price at $17mm a year for 3 years? At this point in our rebuild -- no. But I'd be tempted. 

Which kind of feeds into my next reaction -- as much as I get excited sometimes looking at the 2020 lineup -- how to slot Robert, Madrigal, Yoan, Eloy, Abreu, Grandal, EE, Anderson, etc. -- moves like this really make me quickly catch myself. It doesn't matter how much lines up right this year -- we're not even close to the same tier as the Dodgers or Yankees. Add in the Astros, Rays, Philly, STL, Min, Cin, ATL, etc. and you really have to squint to see the light. Which is fine. We don't have to win this year - just learn how to win more consistently and cross over into winning, consistent baseball. It's just moves like this that make one realize we're not even in the same ballpark as the top tier teams, even with our improved lineup. 

 

Final takeaway - dang it's got to be hard to be a BoSox fan right now. It's one thing for the Rays or Pirates or Brewers to lose a talent like that because of money -- and when you can conceivably still give yourself a SHOT at contending .... and then on top of that losing him to a team like the Dodgers. Woof. Shoot if we want Sale I wouldn't be surprised if he's available. The Red Sox aren't competing with that current roster... Moreland, Peraza, Jackie Bradley, Martin Perez is in the rotation now? They have a completely barren farm system ... the Yankees are just entering their likely 5-8 year dominance ... the Rays are stacked already and have a ridiculous amount of talent in the minors ... 

If I'm the ChiSox I'm making calls -- maybe not immediately, but come July and next off-season? That's a team that has way too many holes to seriously compete this year and into the next 2-4 years -- I think JD, Sale, Eovaldi, etc. are all up for grabs ... and ... relatively cheap in terms of prospects. The Red Sox are going to go through a complete rebuild here in the next 3 years

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I get it; they felt the pressure and frankly didn't have a starting 5 to begin the season with. They weren't sold he wasn't a reliever either, which helped make their decision I'm sure, but Maeda just feels better as a guy you don't HAVE to rely on. I wasn't a big fan when he came over, and he's proven me wrong 100% so far, but I worry about his transition to the AL. 

One thing that may benefit Maeda is he isn't being dicked around anymore, but he's also not anywhere near as cheap as he appears on the surface. As a starter, he's going to earn a decent payday. 

I think Cease is a slightly bigger prospect than Graterol, but I think that's a fair comp and it's splitting hairs. Graterol is so young too and already at the MLB level; it feels incredibly risky to move a piece like that for someone who isn't all that proven/reliable to be a 30 start starter. I truthfully believe that had the White Sox not made substantial moves this off-season, that the Twins wouldn't have made this move. 

What does this mean? Is his contract very incentive laden on IPs?