KW says "no Puig"

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Here’s I’d see certain positions shaking out next year with the addition of Puig:

• RF: Mazara = ~105; Puig =~55
• LF: Eloy = ~140; Puig = ~20
• 1B: Abreu = ~130; EE = ~20; Grandal =~10
• DH: EE = ~110; Abreu = ~20; Grandal =~20; Eloy = ~10
• CA: Grandal = ~120; McCann = ~40

Even without a major injury, he could get close to 75 starts next year.  That’s a huge amount of playing time to give to Engel or Luery (or Mazara against LHP).

Yeah, let's expose the OF defense to more games by the two weakest corner OF, instead of having at least one corner OFer being a competent defender.

 

I dont think this will happen. But, if it does, I'd reverse the Puig & Mazara starts in RF. Again, because Mazara can't field because he can't move his body. 

 

[Orlando]

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Yeah, let's expose the OF defense to more games by the two weakest corner OF, instead of having at least one corner OFer being a competent defender.

 

I dont think this will happen. But, if it does, I'd reverse the Puig & Mazara starts in RF. Again, because Mazara can't field because he can't move his body. 

 

1. Puig has not graded out better than Mazara in the outfield for the past two years. 

2. The Sox will be weak on the corners defensively regardless, and the production of the outfield defensively is going to be tied to the greatness of Robert - you are hoping that Robert's world class range can hide the range deficiencies on the corners.

3. Puig has had regression YOY for the past three years. Mazara still has untapped ceiling. I would rather give Mazara one more chance than giving Puig significant time in hopes of him capturing production from 3-5 years ago. 

[HOFHurt35]

For those believing Puig will be a rosy team player while spending 3 nights of the week on the bench, I have swamp land in FL to sell you. 

 

[Two-Gun Pete]

13 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

1. Puig has not graded out better than Mazara in the outfield for the past two years. 

2. The Sox will be weak on the corners defensively regardless, and the production of the outfield defensively is going to be tied to the greatness of Robert - you are hoping that Robert's world class range can hide the range deficiencies on the corners.

3. Puig has had regression YOY for the past three years. Mazara still has untapped ceiling. I would rather give Mazara one more chance than giving Puig significant time in hopes of him capturing production from 3-5 years ago. 

Can we agree  with the reality that LF will be manned by a butcher?

If so, consider that Puig HAS been positive on DRS over his career. Mazara, despite him being in his athletic PRIME has never been positive on DRS. To me, this indicates that Mazara is bad at fielding, whereas Puig had not been as bad.

Then, add into it that Mazara has never been >100 on WRC+, while Puig has been over his career. This suggests to me that Mazara is not an (overall) above average bat; I can agree that he can contribute in specific handedness situations, but not more than that.

 

Full stop, Mazara is a LH DH/occasional corner OF. Puig isn't a star, and he has his issues. But he's a better "bridge option" until one of the prospects picks his head up & makes it here, or a permanent solution can be acquired.

 

Given that there are already 2 DHs playing positions for this team (Abreu, Jimenez), adding another DH to the defense seems to be a bad idea, IMO.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, HOFHurt35 said:

For those believing Puig will be a rosy team player while spending 3 nights of the week on the bench, I have swamp land in FL to sell you. 

 

Yeah, you're banking on Abreu here and that's a lot to ask of him; given that he, supposedly, was not a big fan of Puig and his attitude dating back to Cuba. I do think Abreu has the respect, and part of his value is being able to reel people like this in, but I just think it's risky given the comradery that has been generated between Robert/Moncada and Abreu.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Can we agree  with the reality that LF will be manned by a butcher?

If so, consider that Puig HAS been positive on DRS over his career. Mazara, despite him being in his athletic PRIME has never been positive on DRS. To me, this indicates that Mazara is bad a fielding, whereas Puig had not been as bad.

Then, add into it that Mazara has never been >100 on WRC+, while Puig has been over his career. This suggests to me that Mazara is not an (overall) above average bat; I can agree that he can contribute in specific handedness situations, but not more than that.

 

Full stop, Mazara is a LH DH/occasional corner OF. Puig isn't a star, and he has his issues. But he's a better "bridge option" until one of the prospects picks his head up & makes it here, or a permanent solution can be acquired.

 

Given that there are already 2 DHs playing positions for this team (Abreu, Jimenez), adding another DH to the defense seems to be a bad idea, IMO.

I'm really not ready to say that Eloy can't be a passable option in LF. It's not a demanding position, and if Eloy can just get to balls to his left and catch the routine ones, Robert may be able to make up for his lack of range in the gaps. Eloy clearly works really hard, and hard work may be able to overcome his lack of skill out there. He's not a slow player by any means.

Puig simply hasn't been better the past two years defensively than Mazara, so what he did prior is really irrelevant. 

Puig's career is on a downward trajectory - the same cannot be said for Mazara. When players are comparable in their projections, the intangible of being an asshole needs to be accounted for.

We can just agree to disagree here.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

20 minutes ago, Orlando said:

 

I could see Puig preferring the Rockies to the Sox. He would probably get more playing time there and hitting in Coors would inflate his stats.

[Two-Gun Pete]

13 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm really not ready to say that Eloy can't be a passable option in LF. It's not a demanding position, and if Eloy can just get to balls to his left and catch the routine ones, Robert may be able to make up for his lack of range in the gaps. Eloy clearly works really hard, and hard work may be able to overcome his lack of skill out there. He's not a slow player by any means.

Puig simply hasn't been better the past two years defensively than Mazara, so what he did prior is really irrelevant. 

Puig's career is on a downward trajectory - the same cannot be said for Mazara. 

We can just agree to disagree here.

We can agree to disagree.

 

But, arguing that Mazara has "untapped potential" defensively ignores the reality of his numbers.

Seriously, look at Mazara's Inside Wdge Fielding numbers. (Hint: He has the range to cover a phone booth defensively.)

 

If anything, Mazara's best tool is his LH power potential, not his glove. He's a DH, period.

Also, Mazara's DRS in the past 2 years: -4, and -5. (In ONLY 101, and 113 games.)

 

Puig's DRS over the past 2 years: 0, and 6. (In 146, and 118 games.)

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

We can agree to disagree.

 

But, arguing that Mazara has "untapped potential" defensively ignores the reality of his numbers.

Seriously, look at Mazara's Inside Fielding numbers. (Hint: He has the range to cover a phone booth defensively.)

 

If anything, Mazara's best tool is his LH power potential, not his glove. He's a DH, period.

I never said he had untapped potential defensively; I've said, he has been practically the same quality defender as Puig the past two years, so using Puig's defense over Mazara as a crutch for this decision is disingenuous and not valid. 

He's also not a DH period; he's a slightly below average defender in RF over the course of his career. He's not horrible, he's not good, he's not average. He's below average, but he's certainly not an assumed DH at this point of his career. 

Also, his range isn't bad at all; no idea where you're getting that. His RF/9 over the past two years is right around league average.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, flavum said:

No to Puig. I don’t want that guy around Robert this season. 

Didn't really seem to effect the Dodgers.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, soxfan2014 said:

Didn't really seem to effect the Dodgers.

A lot of Dodgers players and coaches hated Puig so this is a bad example. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I never said he had untapped potential defensively; I've said, he has been practically the same quality defender as Puig the past two years, so using Puig's defense over Mazara as a crutch for this decision is disingenuous and not valid. 

He's also not a DH period; he's a slightly below average defender in RF over the course of his career. He's not horrible, he's not good, he's not average. He's below average, but he's certainly not an assumed DH at this point of his career. 

Also, his range isn't bad at all; no idea where you're getting that. His RF/9 over the past two years is right around league average.

Disagreed. Look at the DRS numbers between the two. Puig was 0, and +6 in the past 2 years. Mazara was -4, & -5 over the past 2 years.

What's more, is that since Mazara can only play vs RHP, he accumulated the - DRS in far fewer games. This means that were he to play MORE games, his DRS would be even MORE negative.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Disagreed. Look at the DRS numbers between the two. Puig was 0, and +6 in the past 2 years. Mazara was -4, & -5 over the past 2 years.

What's more, is that since Mazara can only play vs RHP, he accumulated the - DRS in far fewer games. This means that were he to play MORE games, his DRS would be even MORE negative.

Pal, you're using one defensive metric when they are all volatile. You should be using a culmination of all the data:

FG: 

Puig: -7.1 and -8.5

Mazara: -4.3 and -8.1

FG DRS:

Puig: 0 and 6

Mazara: -4 and -4

FG RZR:

Puig: .879 and .919

Mazara: .919 and .907

FG OZR:

Puig: 70 and 58

Mazara: 57 and 51

ARM:

Puig: 4.9 and -1.8

Mazara:  -2.6 an 6.1

UZR:

Puig: -.7 and -3.6

Mazara: -2.7 and 2.1

Puig and Mazara are very similar defensively as noted by numerous metrics that show Mazara better in some areas and worse in others. Mazara makes the routine play with greater frequency, while Puig makes the spectacular play with greater frequency. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Dick Allen]

55 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Great, now do their career numbers, rather than Engel's (snicker) 89 PA in The Year of The Happy Fun Juiced Ball.

Again, Puig hasn't been very good, I was responding to a post that mentioned last season. Engel was better against LHP last year.  And I don't think what someone did in 2013 or 2014 is very relevant, or no one would be complaining about Jose Abreu's new contract.

It's also interesting that even though many of the experts here say Puig's bad rep is overrated, not any of his 3 previous teams have any interest in his services.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Dick Allen

[he gone.]

21 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

I could see Puig preferring the Rockies to the Sox. He would probably get more playing time there and hitting in Coors would inflate his stats.

If the Rockies sign him then color me confused. I follow the Sox, Astros, Rox, Cardinals and Rays the most as kind of my go-to teams. I developed a few teams I enjoyed watching when the Sox were so bad and I wanted to watch good baseball.  I have no idea why they'd add another guy to the mix ... Blackmon is an everyday RF. Puig cannot man CF on any consistent basis -- plus they have Dahl in LF. CF should be manned by Hilliard or Tapia. With no DH - I don't get it. (also you can maybe add in Desmond who is just dead weight). They also have Garret Hampson who can man CF as a UTIL. Regardless, their corner OF's are everyday type guys. Sure his stats would be inflated, but I find it tough to get him 50 games with the Rockies. That roster is bloated with talent & would benefit from offloading a few of their younger guys for SP rather than adding a Puig for no reason.

 

The Indians, Tigers, Sox, Orioles, BoSox, San Fran, Seattle. Those are the teams that could use him.  Hell even the Northside if you squint cause I don't believe in Souza or Happ.

[Dick Allen]

Just now, BrianAnderson said:

If the Rockies sign him then color me confused. I follow the Sox, Astros, Rox, Cardinals and Rays the most as kind of my go-to teams. I developed a few teams I enjoyed watching when the Sox were so bad and I wanted to watch good baseball.  I have no idea why they'd add another guy to the mix ... Blackmon is an everyday RF. Puig cannot man CF on any consistent basis -- plus they have Dahl in LF. CF should be manned by Hilliard or Tapia. With no DH - I don't get it. (also you can maybe add in Desmond who is just dead weight). They also have Garret Hampson who can man CF as a UTIL. Regardless, their corner OF's are everyday type guys. Sure his stats would be inflated, but I find it tough to get him 50 games with the Rockies. That roster is bloated with talent & would benefit from offloading a few of their younger guys for SP rather than adding a Puig for no reason.

 

The Indians, Tigers, Sox, Orioles, BoSox, San Fran, Seattle. Those are the teams that could use him.  Hell even the Northside if you squint cause I don't believe in Souza or Happ.

For some reason, signing Puig doesn't seem like a move that would make Arenado let bygones be bygones.

[Tnetennba]

Haven't read up on his D, but isn't Puig more of a make up for the lackadaisical with a great arm sort of defender?  Or am I pulling that out of my arse?

 

[NWINFan]

I don't want this guy on the White Sox. That is all I have to say.

[hi8is]

40 plus new posts since last night and he hasn’t signed. I’m shocked, figured this happened... for better or worse.

[35thstreetswarm]

It's funny, I suspect that if you took a poll back in late 2019 to see who folks wanted to be the *regular* RF, Puig would have beaten Mazara handily.  Mazara was not even on the radar.  Now we're arguing over whether he'd even be a suitable backup to Mazara.  I think a lot of folks have talked themselves into Mazara (myself included) and are measuring Puig against the version of Mazara they've built in their minds. 

Puig has a world of talent and is on the right side of 30.  Particularly given the strong support system on this team I think he's worth a flyer.

[chitownsportsfan]

1 minute ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

It's funny, I suspect that if you took a poll back in late 2019 to see who folks wanted to be the *regular* RF, Puig would have beaten Mazara handily.  Mazara was not even on the radar.  Now we're arguing over whether he'd even be a suitable backup to Mazara.  I think a lot of folks have talked themselves into Mazara (myself included) and are measuring Puig against the version of Mazara they've built in their minds. 

Puig has a world of talent and is on the right side of 30.  Particularly given the strong support system on this team I think he's worth a flyer.

People are talking themselves into Puig as well.  I've softened my stance I'd take him for something where the money is meaningless if he raises a stink: maybe 1 year 4 million is that number.

[Dick Allen]

Puig isn't going to make the difference between winning a championship or not. He is going to be a problem. He has been an issue each place he has played. He isn't the player he used to be, but he was quoted as saying he wasn't playing as hard when he wasn't playing for a contract. We will see. Personally, I would spend it on something else, but it won't kill them if he is even worse than what even the most skeptical have claimed. I would have preferred last season or the year before, but the way the team is currently set up, it could determine if Renteria keeps managing. If he can keep Puig in line and shine, and the team is successful, he will have deserved, despite the bunting and strange pitching usage, an extension.

[fathom]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Puig isn't going to make the difference between winning a championship or not. He is going to be a problem. He has been an issue each place he has played. He isn't the player he used to be, but he was quoted as saying he wasn't playing as hard when he wasn't playing for a contract. We will see. Personally, I would spend it on something else, but it won't kill them if he is even worse than what even the most skeptical have claimed. I would have preferred last season or the year before, but the way the team is currently set up, it could determine if Renteria keeps managing. If he can keep Puig in line and shine, and the team is successful, he will have deserved, despite the bunting and strange pitching usage, an extension.

The Reds loved him

[Orlando]

 

Doesn’t seem like a terrible human being.