Sox Payroll Redux. Why did the Spending Stop ?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

A few days ago I made this Post in the Gorkys Hernandez thread:

"If we revisited the thread about payroll expectations this year,aren't we still under the $120M which was the Athletic number ? I'm going to guess more than half the people who posted thought it would be higher.

I know it's nitpicking to say I'm unhappy about the lack of late signings but I am. Sure I can understand relying on Mendick and Leury and not trading more prospects but I really think the bullpen could use more help especially a long reliever. Heck you can see what the Red Sox want for Brandon Workman but that seems like a move for a team who is sure they are going to contend or more likely to happen at the deadline if the Red Sox still feel they can contend and it doesn't happen.

I can't help but feel they skimped a little on payroll this year not only in order to see how everything looks at the trade deadline but also to prepare for next year, But it just feels like they are in wait and see mode rather than trying to make the playoffs this year. Perhaps too many young pitchers and pitchers in general coming off injuries to push more chips in. Just seems odd that Hahn has talked about how JR reminds him that he isn't getting any younger but we still didn't make a much larger effort to win this year.

In my mind I am also drawing a correlation between the current payroll and increased spending in IFA and more developmental aspects of the game such as biomechanics or more high speed cameras. I have no knowledge that we have more high speed cameras now then before but I am seeing cameras in some of the spring training photos behind the pitchers.

Maybe this feeling needs its own thread but that's how I feel."

Now conversation has cropped up in the Puig thread regarding the lack of late signings though some very helpful pieces have signed elsewhere for relativity cheap.

I 've had this feeling for at least a week before I made the post above that no one else was getting a major league contract.

Thought the topic deserved it's own thread. So how do we feel about this ?

 

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

A few days ago I made this Post in the Gorkys Hernandez thread:

"If we revisited the thread about payroll expectations this year,aren't we still under the $120M which was the Athletic number ? I'm going to guess more than half the people who posted thought it would be higher.

I know it's nitpicking to say I'm unhappy about the lack of late signings but I am. Sure I can understand relying on Mendick and Leury and not trading more prospects but I really think the bullpen could use more help especially a long reliever. Heck you can see what the Red Sox want for Brandon Workman but that seems like a move for a team who is sure they are going to contend or more likely to happen at the deadline if the Red Sox still feel they can contend and it doesn't happen.

I can't help but feel they skimped a little on payroll this year not only in order to see how everything looks at the trade deadline but also to prepare for next year, But it just feels like they are in wait and see mode rather than trying to make the playoffs this year. Perhaps too many young pitchers and pitchers in general coming off injuries to push more chips in. Just seems odd that Hahn has talked about how JR reminds him that he isn't getting any younger but we still didn't make a much larger effort to win this year.

In my mind I am also drawing a correlation between the current payroll and increased spending in IFA and more developmental aspects of the game such as biomechanics or more high speed cameras. I have no knowledge that we have more high speed cameras now then before but I am seeing cameras in some of the spring training photos behind the pitchers.

Maybe this feeling needs its own thread but that's how I feel."

Now conversation has cropped up in the Puig thread regarding the lack of late signings though some very helpful pieces have signed elsewhere for relativity cheap.

I 've had this feeling for at least a week before I made the post above that no one else was getting a major league contract.

Thought the topic deserved it's own thread. So how do we feel about this ?

 

I feel like David Samson is right. It's going to take a 2005-like convergence of happenings for the Sox to win the division or a championship. Otherwise, be happy finishing 2nd to the Twins for another decade. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I feel like David Samson is right. It's going to take a 2005-like convergence of happenings for the Sox to win the division or a championship. Otherwise, be happy finishing 2nd to the Twins for another decade. 

And trust me the thought of the 2nd place carrot dangling stuff you wrote about entered my mind. Just didn't mention it since my posts tend to be long I have to edit something. I know that stuff is hearsay so I don't think I ever commented on it before.

[almagest]

They've already spent a TON of money. There isn't much else out there that's a non-controversial upgrade right now. I'm fine with them waiting until the ASB or next offseason to augment. There are still a lot of unknowns on this team right now.

[ptatc]

Just now, almagest said:

They've already spent a TON of money. There isn't much else out there that's a non-controversial upgrade right now. I'm fine with them waiting until the ASB or next offseason to augment. There are still a lot of unknowns on this team right now.

Agreed. The Sox need to know what they have prior to spending money on much else. They have a bunch of young kids and who knows where they will need to augment going forward. 

[Jerksticks]

I wouldn’t worry.  If the Sox are kicking ass at the ASB I guarantee they make a push for relief help.   

[Jose Abreu]

They desperately need position player depth if they're serious about making the playoffs this year, and as we've seen, such players are signing for peanuts (such as Brad Miller for $2 million). I think the frustration/disappointment is warranted, even if the offseason was largely a positive

[SoxFan562004]

The Sox, or any team, doesn't have the only say in who they sign.  A veteran player may look at the roster and not see playing time or playing time that they don't think will maximize their ability to get a solid next contract.  It's not like if Madrigal struggles early on they're going to sit him for a replacement level player. 

 

They spent good money this offseason and were in on Wheeler, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now. 

[Moan4Yoan]

It’s a bit strange to spend all the money they did and to go with a bench that currently includes Engel and Mendick.  Maybe thinks will change by opening day.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

12 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

It’s a bit strange to spend all the money they did and to go with a bench that currently includes Engel and Mendick.  Maybe thinks will change by opening day.

I actually really enjoy our INF bench depth (Leaury, Mendick, McCann, Collins/Mercedes).. But I HATE our OF depth.  I too wish they went with someone other than Engel.

[Dick Allen]

If this is true, it makes you wonder about ticket sales. I always figured right around here was best case scenario for this season. Despite the ridiculous profit losing was making them, you knew JR wasn’t going to suddenly risk all of it. He still wants to make a profit. Breaking even is fine for a season, but losing cash, even if overall the bank account is bloated has never been acceptable, and never will be. It is one reason why sustained winning is going to be difficult. Look at the Red Sox and the Cubs. They hit a wall financially. The Sox will too, only far lower. Better win when you can because if these guys are as good as advertised they will have to be paid, and  will be trade bait in a couple of years.

i think JR would consider selling the team if they won again and he realized he couldn’t or wouldn’t fund a run at a couple more.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

A few days ago I made this Post in the Gorkys Hernandez thread:

"If we revisited the thread about payroll expectations this year,aren't we still under the $120M which was the Athletic number ? I'm going to guess more than half the people who posted thought it would be higher.

I know it's nitpicking to say I'm unhappy about the lack of late signings but I am. Sure I can understand relying on Mendick and Leury and not trading more prospects but I really think the bullpen could use more help especially a long reliever. Heck you can see what the Red Sox want for Brandon Workman but that seems like a move for a team who is sure they are going to contend or more likely to happen at the deadline if the Red Sox still feel they can contend and it doesn't happen.

I can't help but feel they skimped a little on payroll this year not only in order to see how everything looks at the trade deadline but also to prepare for next year, But it just feels like they are in wait and see mode rather than trying to make the playoffs this year. Perhaps too many young pitchers and pitchers in general coming off injuries to push more chips in. Just seems odd that Hahn has talked about how JR reminds him that he isn't getting any younger but we still didn't make a much larger effort to win this year.

In my mind I am also drawing a correlation between the current payroll and increased spending in IFA and more developmental aspects of the game such as biomechanics or more high speed cameras. I have no knowledge that we have more high speed cameras now then before but I am seeing cameras in some of the spring training photos behind the pitchers.

Maybe this feeling needs its own thread but that's how I feel."

Now conversation has cropped up in the Puig thread regarding the lack of late signings though some very helpful pieces have signed elsewhere for relativity cheap.

I 've had this feeling for at least a week before I made the post above that no one else was getting a major league contract.

Thought the topic deserved it's own thread. So how do we feel about this ?

 

Donaldson and Maeda really stopped the momentum dead in its tracks...maybe CLE not dealing Lindor as well.

[HOFHurt35]

If b****ing and moaning for not spending money on bench pieces is where we are at,  things are looking very good for the Sox this season. 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, HOFHurt35 said:

If b****ing and moaning for not spending money on bench pieces is where we are at,  things are looking very good for the Sox this season. 

 

You misunderstand the point .

If you are happy, as we all are, that we came out of the rebuild by spending money, that had to happen eventually. The point is why not make a bigger effort to win ? Why is the payroll stuck at $110M or where ever its at now ?

We get fed crumbs . Every year seems like let's see what we have. Lets wait till we see how we do. Let's wait to see what attendance is this year or what the TV ratings are. Oh we should be happy we finally entered the world of biomechanics and finally making an effort in IFA . Hooray White Sox, Feed us just enough to be grateful we aren't starving.

Usually in the past when the Sox have made a decent splash in the FA market we get fed stories about increases in season tickets. I haven't seen anything this year about that . Will we get your hopes too high for more payroll if we see better season ticket sales ?

Yes things are going well .Maybe we can all be appeased again when the Sox finally spend over $100M on a player. Why does it take the Sox so long to do what other teams have already done?

I am excited for the season as I am always. That doesn't mean I should be happy the team is  finally coming out of the dark ages. I expect  better . When we talk about Mookie Betts why is it always everyone telling us no way ?

Your reaction is the kind the Sox like, Yay we still have a payroll below average but we're so happy the rebuild is over that the fleeting thoughts about will  they , can they ,finish it off gets vanquished .

Edited February 21, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

5 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

If this is true, it makes you wonder about ticket sales. I always figured right around here was best case scenario for this season. Despite the ridiculous profit losing was making them, you knew JR wasn’t going to suddenly risk all of it. He still wants to make a profit. Breaking even is fine for a season, but losing cash, even if overall the bank account is bloated has never been acceptable, and never will be. It is one reason why sustained winning is going to be difficult. Look at the Red Sox and the Cubs. They hit a wall financially. The Sox will too, only far lower. Better win when you can because if these guys are as good as advertised they will have to be paid, and  will be trade bait in a couple of years.

i think JR would consider selling the team if they won again and he realized he couldn’t or wouldn’t fund a run at a couple more.

Exactly . Does JR want to win again so he can sell high and present this wonderful accounting picture to a new buyer ? Is he catching up to the rest of baseball in other areas to also give a potential buyer the impression the Sox are also in line with the rest of baseball on the field and in all areas of player development also ?

[Capital G]

I'm indifferent. Had they signed a Brad Miller I would've been happy with it.

However, these vets, prior to signing, look at the teams current chances and probable playing time. If a 2nd baseman signs they know that even if Madrigal struggles he won't likely be benched. He needs to play and develop. They also know everything has to go right for us to make the playoffs this year. Not much reason to sign a 1 yr contract with us.

An OF I could see bc Mazara could struggle and lose at bats and the vet could be a platoon based on pitching matchups. None are really all that exciting. 

I'd rather the Sox use the first half to see what we have and make moves at the break if needed.

[bmags]

Posts hidden, stick to baseball.

[GreenSox]

It stopped because they filled their holes and there is no one left (who would be a serious upgrade) to fill whatever still may be unfilled.  
Spending money on these older utility/platoon players/marginal upgrades is just silly.

Edited February 21, 2020 by GreenSox

[hogan873]

5 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

It stopped because they filled their holes and there is no one left (who would be a serious upgrade) to fill whatever still may be unfilled.  
Spending money on these older utility/platoon players/marginal upgrades is just silly.

Hit it on the head here.  Second base is the one spot that could use a temporary filler, but with Leury in the fold, they have a guy who can play there as well as fill in any OF position.  I wouldn't be surprised to see a late veteran signing for very cheap, but I believe the hopes are that Madrigal is up sometime this season.

[SonofaRoache]

13 hours ago, HOFHurt35 said:

If b****ing and moaning for not spending money on bench pieces is where we are at,  things are looking very good for the Sox this season. 

 

True. The thing is the good teams are constantly upgrading or making moves to extend windows, even if it fails. We should always be looking to upgrade our roster, as it protects you against injuries or subpar performances. 

[bmags]

15 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

True. The thing is the good teams are constantly upgrading or making moves to extend windows, even if it fails. We should always be looking to upgrade our roster, as it protects you against injuries or subpar performances. 

I have a hard time seeing the players available that clearly upgrade the roster. 

I do hope we get some fun camp invitees soon (salazar)

[NWINFan]

I am pleased with the off season and am looking forward to the 2020 campaign. I only wonder what the long-term planning is for the franchise. Does the FO really want to turn the club into an elite American League franchise or will they just tear down to rebuild when the time comes? How ambitious they are is not really known. JR may not be concerned about widening and expanding the fan base. The club has the opportunity to do that, but it might not be in their short-term plans. Meanwhile, the rebuild is not done yet. Young players still have to prove they can play at the major league level.  Some have believed that 2020 will be a true break-out season. We will see how management responds if it is.

[hi8is]

20 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

they skimped a little on payroll this year not only in order to see how everything looks at the trade deadline but also to prepare for next year

Yes.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, GreenSox said:

It stopped because they filled their holes and there is no one left (who would be a serious upgrade) to fill whatever still may be unfilled.  
Spending money on these older utility/platoon players/marginal upgrades is just silly.

Cameron Maybin accumulated 1.6 fWAR in only 82 games and he rebuilt his swing .285BA  .364 OBP 127 wRC+ signed with Tigers for $1.5M plus incentives and played all 3 OF positions with the Yankees.

Brad Miller had 1.2 fWAR in only 170 PA with a .565 Slg. and 126wRC+. He signed for $2M plus incentives,

Both vets with good stats signed for very little . Less combined in base salary than the Sox paid John Jay to do basically nothing all year . They realized time was getting short and took what they could get. This narrative about looking for starting jobs and not wanting to come here because of Madrigal is pretty unlikely . It's too late for these guys to be picky about where they end up and were in no position to expect starting jobs or try to wind up with a contender.

Last year combined they had 2.8 fWAR hardly playing at all . Engel's had more chances than he deserved. I like Mendick. He might be a Brad Miller type but that is as uncertain as how Kopech, Cease, Lopez and all the other unproven young players do on the Sox, maybe even more so since his SSS performance surpised a few people. Any time you can add close to 3 fWAR for $3.5M plus incentives you take it when it fills areas of need. It's penny jar money .

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, hi8is said:

Yes.

Let's hope so. In my opening post I said it was just a feeling that had been festering and I listed arguments against my own post in fairness to seeing both sides which you quoted . I really wasn't going to make a thread about it because I know it sounds trivial to be wondering about a couple minor upgrades .

But when conversation in the Puig thread veered into the same direction I saw I wasn't the only one thinking that way and quotes about Jerry not wanting to spend more money popped up with one of our best insiders here, James Fox , saying he heard the same thing .