Your All Time White Sox team

[oldsox]

6 hours ago, greg775 said:

My eye test tells me he was a damn fine SS and a pretty good hitter for a lot of White Sox teams. Me likey Ozzie.

You obviously never saw Aparicio play.  Not even close, and I saw them both.

[Quin]

4 hours ago, oldsox said:

You obviously never saw Aparicio play.  Not even close, and I saw them both.

And Appling, by WAR, is a top 10 SS all time who spent 20 years with the Sox.

[greg775]

On 4/19/2020 at 8:50 AM, oldsox said:

You obviously never saw Aparicio play.  Not even close, and I saw them both.

It's interesting how any discussion of a White Sox all time team usually results in the really old players or deceased players getting the nod at so many positions. For instance any talk of pitchers you usually hear Billy Pierce and Ed Walsh; Ted Lyons, Early Wynn. Reliever you hear WIlhelm.

Everyday players you hear Minnie Minoso, Appling, Jim Landis, Eddie Collins, Nellie Fox, Little Luis Aparicio.

Of the modern era players it's good to see Fisk is generally regarded as our top catcher; Konerko gets the nod at first; and Buehrle is usally listed a top pitcher but what about love for Baines, Ventura, Dick Allen, Sale, AJP, McDowell, Hurt, Ozzie, Hoyt, Thiggie, Wilbur Wood, Hoyt on some of ther all time great lists?? Why the oldies?

Edited April 21, 2020 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

I am only going to go with players that I saw.  I could try to, but it makes more sense to pick from experience, that said, here we go:

C Carlton Fisk

1B Frank Thomas

2B Ray Durham

SS Alexei Ramirez

3B Robin Ventura

RF Maggio Ordonez

CF Lance Johnson

LF Albert Belle

DH Harold Baines

Honorable Mention 5

Joe Crede

Jose Abreu

Paul Konerko

Ozzie Guillen

Carlos Lee

SP Chris Sale

SP Mark Buehrle

SP Lamar Hoyt

SP Jack McDowell

SP jose Quintana

CL Bobby Jenks

CL-SU Bobby Thigpen

SU Keith Foulke

SU Damaso Marte

SU Matt Thornton

LOOGY Scott Radinsky

 

 

 

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

25 minutes ago, greg775 said:

It's interesting how any discussion of a White Sox all time team usually results in the really old players or deceased players getting the nod at so many positions. For instance any talk of pitchers you usually hear Billy Pierce and Ed Walsh; Ted Lyons, Early Wynn. Reliever you hear WIlhelm.

Everyday players you hear Minnie Minoso, Appling, Jim Landis, Eddie Collins, Nellie Fox, Little Luis Aparicio.

Of the modern era players it's good to see Fisk is generally regarded as our top catcher; Konerko gets the nod at first; and Buehrle is usally listed a top pitcher but what about love for Baines, Ventura, Dick Allen, Sale, AJP, McDowell, Hurt, Ozzie, Hoyt, Thiggie, Wilbur Wood, Hoyt on some of ther all time great lists?? Why the oldies?

If you're serious about making a list you want to be objective right?   You just about have to put in the hall of famers.  The team has a 120 year history so it would be a bit weird to have too many from the last 20 years...especially because those were not particularly their greatest years...just the years that we remember the best.  I think any serious person would put Thomas, Ventura, Fisk  and Konerko on the starting list and I said by definition Baines has to be on the list as he's a HOF.  That's more than fifty percent of your position players (and DH) from recent times.  Dick Allen was amazing but only played three years with the Sox.   If you go more than that you are denying the past.  As for starters...Faber-Walsh-Lyons you just can't argue with based on WAR.  Sale in a five year stretch had a 25 WAR which might be the greatest stretch in White Sox history (too lazy to check).  Buerhle was uniquely great.  So now you have 40% of the starters from recent times.  I'm not sure you can really give the relief pitcher to Wilhelm who I don't think every pitched for the White Sox before he was forty.  But ace is a weird as it wasn't really much of thing before 1970.  I loved Goose Gossage...and he had a EIGHT WAR at 23 as a relief pitcher before those idiotic 70's Sox switched him to a starter and then lost him over money.   The franchise has not been gloriously blessed with talent over 120 years...but half before 1970 and half after would make sense to me. 

 

[oldsox]

52 minutes ago, greg775 said:

It's interesting how any discussion of a White Sox all time team usually results in the really old players or deceased players getting the nod at so many positions. For instance any talk of pitchers you usually hear Billy Pierce and Ed Walsh; Ted Lyons, Early Wynn. Reliever you hear WIlhelm.

Everyday players you hear Minnie Minoso, Appling, Jim Landis, Eddie Collins, Nellie Fox, Little Luis Aparicio.

Of the modern era players it's good to see Fisk is generally regarded as our top catcher; Konerko gets the nod at first; and Buehrle is usally listed a top pitcher but what about love for Baines, Ventura, Dick Allen, Sale, AJP, McDowell, Hurt, Ozzie, Hoyt, Thiggie, Wilbur Wood, Hoyt on some of ther all time great lists?? Why the oldies?

For openers, Aparicio is in the Hall.

[turnin' two]

On 4/21/2020 at 2:22 PM, southsider2k5 said:

I am only going to go with players that I saw.  I could try to, but it makes more sense to pick from experience, that said, here we go:

C Carlton Fisk

1B Frank Thomas

2B Ray Durham

SS Alexei Ramirez

3B Robin Ventura

RF Maggio Ordonez

CF Lance Johnson

LF Albert Belle

DH Harold Baines

Honorable Mention 5

Joe Crede

Jose Abreu

Paul Konerko

Ozzie Guillen

Carlos Lee

SP Chris Sale

SP Mark Buehrle

SP Lamar Hoyt

SP Jack McDowell

SP jose Quintana

CL Bobby Jenks

CL-SU Bobby Thigpen

SU Keith Foulke

SU Damaso Marte

SU Matt Thornton

LOOGY Scott Radinsky

 

 

 

 

Albert Belle makes me want to barf -- not that he didn't absolutely mash, but you know, just in general.

Edited April 24, 2020 by turnin' two

[SonofaRoache]

My team is not necessarily based on talent, but factors that would make for a more likely champion in my opinion. 

C- AJ (Fisk was better but AJ has IT)

1B- Big Hurt

2B- YoYo

SS- Apple Man

3B- Ace

LF- Belle

CF- Minnie (could have played here easily)

RF- Maggs

DH- Mr Incredible 

It hurt leaving Paulie off but Frank and Thome are too lethal and Thome being a lefty is good for balance. 

Batting order

1. Minnie

2. Yoyo

3. Big Hurt

4. Mr. Incredible 

5. Belle

6. Ace

7. Maggs

8. AJ

9. Apple Man

 

[Quin]

Here's my list, with a bench.

C - Carlton Fisk 

1B -  Paul Konerko

2B - Eddie Collins

SS - Luke Appling

3B - Robin Ventura

RF - Maggio Ordonez

CF - Minnie Minoso 

LF - Shoeless Joe

DH - Frank Thomas

 

C - Sherm Lollar

INF - Nellie Fox

INF - Luis Aparicio

OF - Jim Landis

1B/DH - Jose Abreu

 

SP - Chris Sale

SP - Ted Lyons

SP - Mark Buehrle

SP - Red Faber

SP - Billy Pierce Ed Walsh

 

CL - Bobby Jenks

SU - Matt Thornton

SU - Hoyt Wilhelm

MR - Bobby Thigpen

MR -  Nate Jones

LR - Wilbur Wood

LR/SP - Billy Pierce

 

Notes:

Minnie is obviously in CF for fit to get Shoeless Joe in the starting lineup. CF is Robert's for the taking.

After weighing @michelangelosmonkey's comment, this is moot, but leaving:

Ed Walsh was the next man up for the rotation. Lowest career ERA of 1.82. From 1906 - 1912, he averaged 361 IP. He supposedly was going to take a season off to rest his arm, but felt his team needed him, so he showed up anyway he could only manage 38 IP a season from then on. He is also the one who helped design Comiskey Park's dimensions, making it a pitcher's park (at least according to internet hearsay).

Cutting Harold sucked, but his only argument over Magglio in RF was longevity. On the bench, Abreu can back up first while providing more power.

According to WAR, Thornton is the most valuable White Sox reliever ever. Just to restate how dominant he was for a non-closer.

[michelangelosmonkey]

22 minutes ago, Quin said:

Here's my list, with a bench.

C - Carlton Fisk 

1B -  Paul Konerko

2B - Eddie Collins

SS - Luke Appling

3B - Robin Ventura

RF - Maggio Ordonez

CF - Minnie Minoso 

LF - Shoeless Joe

DH - Frank Thomas

 

C - Sherm Lollar

INF - Nellie Fox

INF - Luis Aparicio

OF - Jim Landis

1B/DH - Jose Abreu

 

SP - Chris Sale

SP - Ted Lyons

SP - Mark Buehrle

SP - Red Faber

SP - Billy Pierce

 

CL - Bobby Jenks

SU - Matt Thornton

SU - Hoyt Wilhelm

MR - Bobby Thigpen

MR -  Keith Foulke

MR -  Nate Jones

LR - Wilbur Wood

 

Notes:

Minnie is obviously in CF for fit to get Shoeless Joe in the starting lineup. CF is Robert's for the taking.

Ed Walsh was the next man up for the rotation. Lowest career ERA of 1.82. From 1906 - 1912, he averaged 361 IP. He supposedly was going to take a season off to rest his arm, but felt his team needed him, so he showed up anyway he could only manage 38 IP a season from then on. He is also the one who helped design Comiskey Park's dimensions, making it a pitcher's park (at least according to internet hearsay). 

Cutting Harold sucked, but his only argument over Magglio in RF was longevity. On the bench, Abreu can back up first while providing more power.

According to WAR, Thornton is the most valuable White Sox reliever ever. Just to restate how dominant he was for a non-closer.

Honestly you can't leave Ed Walsh off the list if it's a serious list. He averaged 9+ War over a six year period...including winning FORTY games one year. He had more WAR in a six year stretch than Billy Pierce had in 18 seasons.  BP was a fine player but he never got more than 2% of required HOF voting while Walsh is a Hall of famer.  

Thornton had 13.5 War in his career...Goose Gossage had an 8.2 WAR in 1975 for the White Sox.  I can see why he's not considered a White Sox...but he came up through their system and spent five years with them...before Bill Veeck traded him rather than pay him in free agency.  

[Quin]

27 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Honestly you can't leave Ed Walsh off the list if it's a serious list. He averaged 9+ War over a six year period...including winning FORTY games one year. He had more WAR in a six year stretch than Billy Pierce had in 18 seasons.  BP was a fine player but he never got more than 2% of required HOF voting while Walsh is a Hall of famer.  

Thornton had 13.5 War in his career...Goose Gossage had an 8.2 WAR in 1975 for the White Sox.  I can see why he's not considered a White Sox...but he came up through their system and spent five years with them...before Bill Veeck traded him rather than pay him in free agency.  

For some reason, I have an attachment to Billy Pierce, despite having been born in '92. Probably because he was my dad's all time favorite pitcher and my favorite number is #19.

If I revised the list, especially in lieu of saying "ah, screw it" and putting Minoso in center, I'd probably take Foulke off, add Pierce to the bullpen and slot Walsh into the rotation.

[SonofaRoache]

At some point you also have to be realistic. Walsh was putting up 30 complete games a year and it was a different time. He was a great pitcher and maybe even the best here, but numbers alone don't always tell the story. 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

Lineup

1. Nellie Fox, 2B

2. Luke Appling, SS

3. Frank Thomas, DH

4. Paul Konerko, 1B

5. Harold Baines, RF

6. Robin Ventura, 3B

7. Carlton Fisk, C

8. Minnie Minoso, LF

9. Fielder Jones, CF

 

Bench

Ray Schalk, C

Eddie Collins, 2B

Joe Jackson, LF

Luis Aparicio, SS

 

Rotation

1. Ed Walsh

2. Ted Lyons

3. Red Faber

4. Eddie Cicotte

5. Mark Buehrle

 

Bullpen

LRP - Billy Pierce

LRP - Wilbur Wood

MR - Keith Foulke

MR - Terry Forster

MR - Eddie Fisher

SU - Hoyt Wilhelm

SU - Matt Thornton

CP - Roberto Hernandez

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

For some reason, I have an attachment to Billy Pierce, despite having been born in '92. Probably because he was my dad's all time favorite pitcher and my favorite number is #19.

If I revised the list, especially in lieu of saying "ah, screw it" and putting Minoso in center, I'd probably take Foulke off, add Pierce to the bullpen and slot Walsh into the rotation.

Wait...are you being reasonable?  This is SOXTALK...you make a claim and then defend it to the death in the face of all evidence.  My dad loved Billy Pierce too he's not a bad choice...if I said you were an idiot for liking Scarlett Johansonn over Natalie Portman...I could support your idiocy with facts but it's really just a matter of taste.

I love a bullpen of Foulke followed by Gossage with Thornton as your lefty specialist.  Foulke was amazing.  

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, turnin' two said:

Albert Belle makes me want to barf -- not that he didn't absolutely mash, but you know, just in general.

The same can be said for Dick Allen...but I'm surprised only Greg has him on his all time list.  He was a flat out great hitter.  

[michelangelosmonkey]

48 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

At some point you also have to be realistic. Walsh was putting up 30 complete games a year and it was a different time. He was a great pitcher and maybe even the best here, but numbers alone don't always tell the story. 

What is realistic about an all-time team?   Walsh dramatically out pitched Cy Young in 1908.  He had one of the greatest seasons ever by any player.  He pitched 460 innings with a WHIP of .86.  I mean just because it's a long time ago doesn't mean we should ignore him as part of our team's history.  Most of Ty Cobb's greatness was more than 100 years ago. Should Detroit not have him as part of their ALL TIME team because it was really just too long ago?  

[michelangelosmonkey]

2 minutes ago, poppysox said:

The same can be said for Dick Allen...but I'm surprised only Greg has him on his all time list.  He was a flat out great hitter.  

Allen had a 8.6 WAR in 1972 for the Sox...but I think the same for him and Belle...they only had a few years with the White Sox so can you really consider them part of your ALL TIME team?   I mention Gossage who had an amazing year for the Sox as a reliever but most of his greatness was on another team...can you really include him on our team's all time list?   If you went with greatest seasons ever you'd sure have Dick Allen on the team (and Wilbur Wood...who had 22.5 WAR over two year 71-72 seasons).   

[Quin]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Wait...are you being reasonable?  This is SOXTALK...you make a claim and then defend it to the death in the face of all evidence.  My dad loved Billy Pierce too he's not a bad choice...if I said you were an idiot for liking Scarlett Johansonn over Natalie Portman...I could support your idiocy with facts but it's really just a matter of taste.

I love a bullpen of Foulke followed by Gossage with Thornton as your lefty specialist.  Foulke was amazing.  

It's all good. If I'm taking Maggs due to his peak, then it kind of negates Pierce over Walsh.

2 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

At some point you also have to be realistic. Walsh was putting up 30 complete games a year and it was a different time. He was a great pitcher and maybe even the best here, but numbers alone don't always tell the story. 

Babe Ruth would probably, at best, be an average DH in today's league if you transplanted him into the league today, with no prep time or anything.

Meanwhile, Reynaldo Lopez would be the most terrifying pitcher alive if he were dropped into the 20s.

We have WAR so we can judge across eras. Unless you're talking about Walsh's innings pitched, in which case, that may also be possible in today's game, but no one would risk the great cost that can be seen with Walsh himself.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

It's all good. If I'm taking Maggs due to his peak, then it kind of negates Pierce over Walsh.

Babe Ruth would probably, at best, be an average DH in today's league if you transplanted him into the league today, with no prep time or anything.

Meanwhile, Reynaldo Lopez would be the most terrifying pitcher alive if he were dropped into the 20s.

We have WAR so we can judge across eras. Unless you're talking about Walsh's innings pitched, in which case, that may also be possible in today's game, but no one would risk the great cost that can be seen with Walsh himself.

You do know Babe Ruth was one of the best pitchers in baseball while also being one of the best hitters.  This idea that he was just a slow fat guy is from the pictures of him at the end of his career.  He was 6'2 215 with amazing hand/eye coordination.  I think historical basketball comparisons don't work...but baseball I think you can.  

I also don't think the science of throwing hard is new to this age.  If we are going to discount all players before the 1970's...well then its a different thing.  But it does seem that if someone is 3 deviations above the mean in 1907 we can't with confidence say that in 2020 the mean is now where three deviations above was in 1907 so bring Big Ed in the time machine and he's just a guy.       

 

[turnin' two]

It really is impossible to compare across eras.  Walsh in part of an era that is almost "tall-tale-ish" by now.  He is the all time leader in ERA and in FIP.  He is an all time great from the era.  He deserves to be as revered as guys like Christy Mathewson and Walter Johnson.  Would he be dominant in today's game?  Really there is no way to know.  Just like there is no way to know how Eddie Collins would have hit in today's game. 

That doesn't diminish what they accomplished at all.  They are all time greats, and some of the best players of their era.  I'd think it is completely fair to include them because of that, or exclude them because we never saw them so who knows.

[Quin]

32 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

You do know Babe Ruth was one of the best pitchers in baseball while also being one of the best hitters.  This idea that he was just a slow fat guy is from the pictures of him at the end of his career.  He was 6'2 215 with amazing hand/eye coordination.  I think historical basketball comparisons don't work...but baseball I think you can.  

I also don't think the science of throwing hard is new to this age.  If we are going to discount all players before the 1970's...well then its a different thing.  But it does seem that if someone is 3 deviations above the mean in 1907 we can't with confidence say that in 2020 the mean is now where three deviations above was in 1907 so bring Big Ed in the time machine and he's just a guy.       

 

I know about the slow, fat Ruth. But the point I'm trying to get at is that due to having to face a larger pool of talent and thanks to better training resources, dieting, etc., players are able to rely on more than raw strength and athleticism now. It's why I added the "no prep time" clause.

Ruth is an undeniable GOAT and amazing athlete, but he can only be fairly judged within the confines of the game he played in, like Walsh.

So long story short, I'm agreeing with you that oldies belong on rosters ?

[SonofaRoache]

2 hours ago, Quin said:

It's all good. If I'm taking Maggs due to his peak, then it kind of negates Pierce over Walsh.

Babe Ruth would probably, at best, be an average DH in today's league if you transplanted him into the league today, with no prep time or anything.

Meanwhile, Reynaldo Lopez would be the most terrifying pitcher alive if he were dropped into the 20s.

We have WAR so we can judge across eras. Unless you're talking about Walsh's innings pitched, in which case, that may also be possible in today's game, but no one would risk the great cost that can be seen with Walsh himself.

Yeah I'm speaking in terms of innings and games pitched. No way he is hurling a 40 complete game season in more modern eras.