Which Team Was Better? 94 or 05 White Sox?

[Dam8610]

19 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

One of the things I didn't realize until the modern era was that Aaron Rowand was a 5 fWAR player in 2004 and a 3.5 fWAR player in 2005. If I offered you an expensive DH for that player and a pitching prospect today, wouldn't everyone hesitate?

That's why I didn't like the trade at the time. Giving up a young talented CF with plus defense and a 20 HR bat with decent average made no sense to me, especially not for a DH in his late 30s. I understand they needed a LH power bat, but trading Anderson for one would've been the better option. I think I would've been happier at the time trading Anderson for Thome. Would've worked out better, too.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

22 hours ago, fathom said:

2006 WSox was significantly more talented than 2005. 

Indeed. There were a number of fumbles along the season... and the starting rotation was clearly cooked from the 2005. 

But the 2006 versions of Dye Thome Konerko was as scary of a 3-4-5 you were going to see. 

[Balta1701]

19 hours ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

Indeed. There were a number of fumbles along the season... and the starting rotation was clearly cooked from the 2005. 

But the 2006 versions of Dye Thome Konerko was as scary of a 3-4-5 you were going to see. 

The pitching wasn't as good as in 2005, but it was also hurt dramatically because of the defense. Fangraphs ranks them 10th league-wide in 2005 and 23rd league-wide in 2006, and while those numbers aren't that precise that's comparable to what we saw. They were a strong defensive team in 2005 and a sieve in 2006, and it seemed like those pitchers had to throw 10-20 extra pitches with runners on base every game because of plays that weren't made. 

So yeah, that was a scary 3-4-5, but that was a 25-run or more defensive downgrade, not to mention the effect that had on the pitchers themselves. 

[Jerksticks]

You inspired me to look up Javy Vazquez’s game logs and the Sox lost the last 10 games he started in 2006, and 13 of his last 15.  Whoof.  

[ptatc]

On 4/30/2020 at 4:55 PM, Dam8610 said:

That's why I didn't like the trade at the time. Giving up a young talented CF with plus defense and a 20 HR bat with decent average made no sense to me, especially not for a DH in his late 30s. I understand they needed a LH power bat, but trading Anderson for one would've been the better option. I think I would've been happier at the time trading Anderson for Thome. Would've worked out better, too.

They also knew that it wouldnt last as the production wasnt "natural." Rumormill anyway.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

On 5/1/2020 at 3:01 PM, Balta1701 said:

The pitching wasn't as good as in 2005, but it was also hurt dramatically because of the defense. Fangraphs ranks them 10th league-wide in 2005 and 23rd league-wide in 2006, and while those numbers aren't that precise that's comparable to what we saw. They were a strong defensive team in 2005 and a sieve in 2006, and it seemed like those pitchers had to throw 10-20 extra pitches with runners on base every game because of plays that weren't made. 

So yeah, that was a scary 3-4-5, but that was a 25-run or more defensive downgrade, not to mention the effect that had on the pitchers themselves. 

Aside from Rob Mackowiak in CF, what else changed? 

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

Aside from Rob Mackowiak in CF, what else changed? 

Dye was a year older and weaker, Podsednik was hurt a lot more and Ozuna played there a lot. But yeah, going from “this center fielder just swept the Yankees single handedly” in 2005 to the worst CF play I’ve ever seen for half a year in 06 was definitely the biggest part of it.

[GreenSox]

 

05

I always felt that there was something missing on the 94 team...well, really 93 team as that's the one I remember.
2B was a real weak-link.
Too many lineup holes:  2b, Guillen, Karkovice
Pen wasn't great
Manager wasn't either.
 

Edited May 3, 2020 by GreenSox

[NWINFan]

On 4/29/2020 at 6:02 PM, Soxsi75 said:

Excellent point about 2003!! They can most certainly be thrown into this mix!

That team had great talent and should have done much better. The memory of that club gives me nightmares. It would have been great if the '03 team somehow gotten into the World Series while the Cubs had Bartman.  And I think the '03 team would have beaten the Cubs in the Series. 

[Jack Parkman]

On 5/3/2020 at 4:24 PM, NWINFan said:

That team had great talent and should have done much better. The memory of that club gives me nightmares. It would have been great if the '03 team somehow gotten into the World Series while the Cubs had Bartman.  And I think the '03 team would have beaten the Cubs in the Series. 

Buehrle had his 2nd worst year with the Sox, and the 4th and 5th starters were a black hole. Garland was awful that year and whenever the 5th spot came up and they didn't score 8 runs it was an automatic loss. 

Colon and Loaiza's excellence shouldn't overshadow Garland and the 5th spot's awfulness. 

Edited May 6, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[NWINFan]

On 5/6/2020 at 12:00 PM, Jack Parkman said:

Buehrle had his 2nd worst year with the Sox, and the 4th and 5th starters were a black hole. Garland was awful that year and whenever the 5th spot came up and they didn't score 8 runs it was an automatic loss. 

Colon and Loaiza's excellence shouldn't overshadow Garland and the 5th spot's awfulness. 

The simple fact was the Sox lost five straight to the Twins in September, and that was a big choke. The Twins played NY in the divisional round and scored something like six runs in four games. Somehow, I think the Sox offense could have done better than this. And it would have helped if Jerry spent a little more money.  2003 is a bad memory for many reasons. 2005 was a great memory for the obvious reasons.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Oops.  Wrong thread.

Edited May 10, 2020 by Harold's Leg Lift

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

The simple fact was the Sox lost five straight to the Twins in September, and that was a big choke. The Twins played NY in the divisional round and scored something like six runs in four games. Somehow, I think the Sox offense could have done better than this. And it would have helped if Jerry spent a little more money.  2003 is a bad memory for many reasons. 2005 was a great memory for the obvious reasons.

They would have coasted to a division title if they had spent money on one more starter. 

[pcq]

On 5/1/2020 at 7:36 AM, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

Indeed. There were a number of fumbles along the season... and the starting rotation was clearly cooked from the 2005. 

But the 2006 versions of Dye Thome Konerko was as scary of a 3-4-5 you were going to see. 

The 06 offense was awesome but everything else far apart. My heart wanted Rowand but he was no match for Thome's production. Crede was barely noticed in 06 with 32 HR and 95 RBI. 

[HollywoodTim]

I doubt the 2003 Sox would have coasted to anything other than the beach/golf course after the year.  There were way too many holes.  D'Angelo Jimenez's defense gave way to Robbie Alomar's batlessness.  It's one of about 2-3 seasons that legitimately cost Paulie a shot at the HOF.  The Sox actually got lucky their pitching wasn't worse because Loaiza was not supposed to turn out that way.  They were trying to develop their young pitching, and arguably, relying on Loaiza as a FA pre-ST was a bigger mistake, but it just turned out great.  Everett in CF, Lee in LF, Maggs in RF... who is going to catch the baseball in the playoffs?  And then despite all the offense, during the infamous reign of CorpseBall we lost our fair share of games vs. the lowly Tigers like 1-0, 2-1, etc.  I think the Tigers lost something like 100 games that year but they managed to totally shut us down on days when our starters shut them down.  Oh and also, Loaiza faded late in the 2nd half of 2003 and that carried over until his trade for Jose. 

IMO that 2003 team was an all-around a bad team with a few great performances on it.  That defense wasn't going to win anything and the starting pitching would have fallen apart in the playoffs.  We played in a horrible division and reaped the benefits.   I think the area where that team was most dangerous was the back of the bullpen, specifically Damaso Marte and Flash Gordon.  Even Billy Koch being so bad didn't matter too much given how excellent Marte and Gordon were.  

Personally I think the 2006 and 1994 teams were the most talented.  The 2005 team is probably (and will probably always be) underrated in terms of its talent level.  That team was 3rd for me.  I do think the 1994 team could have won it all.

[Jack Parkman]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:45 PM, Jerksticks said:

You inspired me to look up Javy Vazquez’s game logs and the Sox lost the last 10 games he started in 2006, and 13 of his last 15.  Whoof.  

Ah yes...Javier Vazquez. The guy who only had a good year on shitty teams. Could have been an ace if he could grow a pair, but Javi no tiene cojones. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[BamaDoc]

Growing up the 83 team was a lot of fun.  Still pissed they lost to orioles.  Hoyt, Dotson, Bannister, and Burns finished the year something like 42-5 combined over second half or post allstar or some point.  Hoyt would have pitched game 5.  FFFFFFFF

[VAfan]

2005.

They won it all, going 16-1 to finish the season and playoffs. Two 8-game winning streaks broken up by a 3-2 loss.

Their starters threw 4 complete game wins in a row against the Angels in the ALCS. That will never be done again, or ever be approached.  The bullpen pitched only 2/3 of an inning (Neal Cotts) in a five-game ALCS. Preposterous!  Those 4 starters all pitched over 200 innings on the season. 

Twice they rallied from 4-0 deficits in the playoffs by scoring 5 runs in the 5th inning. 

Scott Podsednik, who had zero HRs in the regular season, hit two in the postseason, including a walk-off against Brad Lidge in game 2.

Who can forget the dropped third strike controversy that helped the Sox win game 2 of the ALCS?

Or El Duque getting out of a bases loaded no-out jamb in game 3 in Boston?

Or Freddie Garcia, Mr. Road Warrior, winning the division clinching game in Detroit, the ALDS clinching game in Boston, and the World Series clinching game in Houston? 

Or Frank Thomas, who played in only 34 games and couldn't run, hitting 12 HRs and a .905 OPS despite a .219 batting average.

Or guys like Juan Uribe and Joe Crede, who were great defenders but not great offensively, were money in the postseason.  Uribe made the diving catch in the stands for the penultimate out in the WS clinching game, then charged a dribbler for the final out. Crede stopped hot smash after hot smash in that 1-0 victory. 

They went wire to wire. 

Won the first game of the year 1-0. First game after the All-Star break 1-0. Last game of the World Series 1-0.

They are tied for 5th best winning percentage in Sox history, at .611. Tied with the 1983 club. But their pythgorean projection based on run differential was .563, (91-71, out of the playoffs) proving how money they were in close games.  Swept the Astros in the World Series but outscored them by only 6 runs.  They were relentless. 

They had Ozzie Guillen as manager. He got the team to believe it could win. He also managed his pitching staff very well.  He built up his starters and saved his bullpen by using them for 100 pitches win or lose. It probably hurt them in 2006, but to win the WS was worth it. 

I could go on. The most magical season in Sox history, by far. 

[HollywoodTim]

Back in 2005 I was a member of WSI.  I remember somebody posted a thread or a link to a thread in 2005.  Roger Clemens' mother was dying and said something like Shoeless Joe Jackson was with her when she was dying and said that he would go against the White Sox in the World Series that year.  I did a quick google search and couldn't find the link, but found a few other things: https://jlbgibberish.blogspot.com/2005/10/ghost-of-shoeless-joe.html https://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/15/sports/baseball/clemens-pitches-hours-after-mother-dies.html https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/sports/clemens-start-tribute-to-mom-astro-ace---/article_497603bb-2091-588d-9ca4-00551d1df8ee.html

That was a spiritual/magical sort of year for many reasons.  I remember when I was very little I had a penny, I think, that listed all of these similarities between the assassination of Abraham Lincoln and JFK, and it was eerie.  There are always odd series of concidences to point out in a 162 game season because there are so many games and so many innings and so many plays, but 2005 was eerie almost as far as how it all played out.

As an aside, my wet dream as a fan broadcast booth would be AJ and a fluent English-speaking version of Freddy Garcia and/or El Duque.  If there are any people I would love to have explain the game of baseball and its situations to me, it would probably be those guys.  I loved watching AJ and I loved watching those other guys pitch.  What they could do to the hitter was pure psychology.  I remember watching Saturday afternoon baseball on FOX after Freddy was traded to the Phillies, and the Phillies were playing at home, Freddy was pitching, and he was getting all the Phillies fans scared because he was walking guys.  He walked the bases loaded, and I knew what he was doing, and I knew he was going to load them.  I also knew he was targeting a specific hitter that he was going to get out in a certain way, and he did it.  Not only did that 2005 club win a WS, but it also had some of my favorite Sox players of all time on that team.  Even 1 year of El Duque for instance was more enjoyable than several years of most other guys.  I'm not nostaligic about players like Dan Pasqua, Warren Newsom, Don Pall, etc.  

Another thing I think about 2005 is a lot of "what if" and the "alternate universe" HOF stuff.  If the baseball HOF for example was really all-inclusive of the sport the way the basketball HOF is, IMO El Duque is a shoe-in, and Jose Contreras probably is close if he doesn't get in.  Tadahito is a Japanese baseball HOFer.  What AJ and Mark did is IMO HOF worthy just given how difficult it is for anyone to have the kinds of careers they both had, but I know if they ever have a chance it'll have to be through the veterans committee, and Mark is the only one to have a chance.  But Frank was a first ballot guy, and I think there are alternate universes where Paulie has a shot at the Hall if he doesn't have that horrible 2003 season and doesn't hurt his wrist so much.  I also think Jermaine Dye might make the HOF in some alternate universe where he doesn't foul the ball off his shin in Oakland.  Then there is Freddy who went down with shoulder surgery, and pulled a Mike Mussina / Paul Byrd sort of late career overachieving resurgance, albeit brief.  But Freddy's intellect on the mound and his pure stuff was enough IMO to get him in the HOF in some alternate universe.  I just think overall that there was a lot more talent on that team than people understand or will give credit for.  The well-publicized issues Bobby Jenks had with his back really cut short what had been up to that point a brilliant relief career.  I think that if there is a Hall of Very Good, there are a lot of 2005 Sox members in it, and overall, a lot of flat-out smart baseball players who played really hard and knew the game very well, and absolutely got the most out of their ability.  There's no doubt Scotty Pods was a quality pure hitter, and this surprised a lot of people including me, but was more evident in his second stint in Chicago.  Also Aaron Rowand is a guy I have heard on commentary, and he is a very smart baseball guy.  Aaron will probably stick in the game as a coach etc. as long as he wants.  Then there is Uribe, etc.  All-around it was a great team that IMO would stack up and fight tooth-and-nail against any historical team.  Scrappy and smart, and sneaky talented.

[kwolf68]

What a sore subject. 1994 is precisely why I walked away from baseball for a period of time. The 1994 Sox were a great team, it felt like they were also getting into a groove. Then the season gets canceled. Unreal. I came back when the Sox made it in 2000 and they were quickly dispatched in the playoffs, but I at least got the buzz back. A few years later 2005 happened, all was right in the world.