George Floyd Thread

[Butter Parque]

2 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

Yes, it is a radical proposal. The idea of depolicing is that the funding would be shifted to community services like education, housing, food, and health care that would reduce the things that drive crime and violence in the first place. You don't just flip a switch and disband all police forces and police powers over night. What you do is you start shifting resources and, crucially, responsibilities away from the police. You move them to actual social workers, health care workers, jobs programs, things that can actually attack the causes of most crime at its root. Tasking the police with handling all of that after the fact is setting up for failure and violence over and over and over again.

If you want a more thorough examination of the idea of depolicing, a recent book examining the idea has been made available for free download by the publisher:

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing

There's a recent interview with the author here to give a flavor.

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/06/03/457251670/how-much-do-we-need-the-police

 

Sorry, but new textbooks, universal pre-K, more nurses, jobs programs, etc. aren't going to help.

Children need parents in their household who value education over all else. If the child doesn't have parents who place an emphasis on ensuring the child does his/her HW, studies for exams, etc. no government program is going to move the needle.

 

At some point, personal responsibility needs to come to the forefront. The government was never intended to be a babysitter, social worker, shrink. 

[Texsox]

13 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

Sorry, but new textbooks, universal pre-K, more nurses, jobs programs, etc. aren't going to help.

Children need parents in their household who value education over all else. If the child doesn't have parents who place an emphasis on ensuring the child does his/her HW, studies for exams, etc. no government program is going to move the needle.

 

At some point, personal responsibility needs to come to the forefront. The government was never intended to be a babysitter, social worker, shrink. 

I agree but allow me a couple observations after seeing both ends of the educational spectrum. I've taught at a very poor school and an affluent school. Poor as in colonias with home build walls, blankets for doors, and a communal water tap with hoses running through windows to provide water.  I now teach kids leaving multimillion dollar homes. It's more than valuing education. Poor parents working two jobs to provide food and shelter just can't provide the same level of support as a full time mom. Most of the kids at the poorer school had no one at home to ensure of them doing much of anything. Rich parents hire tutors. College educated parents understand the system and how to get their child into the right colleges. The poor parents just don't have the background. Then there is the pressure on the kids to work at a young age. I taught a lot of migrant kids who basically could go to school from November to April. The rest of the year they were chasing paychecks with the rest of the family. It's what they did to survive. The families valued surviving over everything else. 

I know you didn't make this implication, but I just wanted to show that it isn't some character failing or shortcoming by the parents. But when so much of your time is spent providing food and shelter, other things, even very important things, just don't get the space they deserve. 

[southsider2k5]

24 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

Sorry, but new textbooks, universal pre-K, more nurses, jobs programs, etc. aren't going to help.

Children need parents in their household who value education over all else. If the child doesn't have parents who place an emphasis on ensuring the child does his/her HW, studies for exams, etc. no government program is going to move the needle.

 

At some point, personal responsibility needs to come to the forefront. The government was never intended to be a babysitter, social worker, shrink. 

Hey great. Now welcome to reality. 

We have built a society of disenfranchisement.  There is a significant portion of the United States who literally don't have two parent stability.  Many don't even have on around.  So then what?  As a society we have a choice,  you can either pay in childhood to put kids into a position to succeed,  or you can spend their adulthood paying for that failure.  Incarceration,  welfare, or education, pick one. We have generations of adults out there who can't teach their kids to read, let alone how to do math, science or anything that kids need in 2020. 

Too many kids are already starting from behind.  If you forget about them, you build the next welfare generation and prison population. 

[caulfield12]

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/06/03/trump-responds-photo-op-dale-fact-check-keilar-vpx-crn.cnn
Apparently, the WH sees a momentous difference between “tear gas” and the use of “exploding pepper balls” and concussive flash bang grenades being used in tandem.  

And acting like the whole situation with forcibly moving that crowd back wasn’t anticipated by Trump when AG Barr had been standing out there surveying the entire scene for 2-3 minutes, all this around 6:20-6:25, then they started clearing people at 6:35, the 7 minute announced started at 6:45.  No way they didn’t know exactly what they were doing and how it would play on t.v.

 

 
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/03/politics/mattis-statement-trump/index.html

Former Defense Secretary Mattis tears into Trump: 'We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership'

We must reject any thinking of our cities as a 'battlespace' that our uniformed military is called upon to 'dominate,'" Mattis said. "At home, we should use our military only when requested to do so, on very rare occasions, by state governors. Militarizing our response, as we witnessed in Washington, D.C., sets up a conflict—a false conflict—between the military and civilian society."

"It erodes the moral ground that ensures a trusted bond between men and women in uniform and the society they are sworn to protect, and of which they themselves are a part. Keeping public order rests with civilian state and local leaders who best understand their communities and are answerable to them."

“Never did I dream that troops taking that same oath would be ordered under any circumstance to violate the Constitutional rights of their fellow citizens—much less to provide a bizarre photo op for the elected commander-in-chief, with military leadership standing alongside."

Still, Mattis made clear that his blistering assessment of the President extends beyond any one issue. 

"Only by adopting a new path—which means, in truth, returning to the original path of our founding ideals—will we again be a country admired and respected at home and abroad."

[Butter Parque]

57 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Hey great. Now welcome to reality. 

We have built a society of disenfranchisement.  There is a significant portion of the United States who literally don't have two parent stability.  Many don't even have on around.  So then what?  As a society we have a choice,  you can either pay in childhood to put kids into a position to succeed,  or you can spend their adulthood paying for that failure.  Incarceration,  welfare, or education, pick one. We have generations of adults out there who can't teach their kids to read, let alone how to do math, science or anything that kids need in 2020. 

Too many kids are already starting from behind.  If you forget about them, you build the next welfare generation and prison population. 

And that doesn't have anything to do with personal responsibility?

[southsider2k5]

50 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

And that doesn't have anything to do with personal responsibility?

How are people today personally responsible for their parents and grandparents being discriminated against.

[StrangeSox]

2 hours ago, Butter Parque said:

Sorry, but new textbooks, universal pre-K, more nurses, jobs programs, etc. aren't going to help.

Children need parents in their household who value education over all else. If the child doesn't have parents who place an emphasis on ensuring the child does his/her HW, studies for exams, etc. no government program is going to move the needle.

 

At some point, personal responsibility needs to come to the forefront. The government was never intended to be a babysitter, social worker, shrink. 

You are never going to police away crime. We see the fruits of that effort across the nation again tonight.

Our current system creates massive underserved, impoverished communities of all races, though there are obviously desperate impacts. These are the conditions that bring about social disorder and crime. Pushing all of these issues onto policing ensures we have a never-ending, typically escalating cycle of poverty, crime and violence.

 

I provided a whole book to read if you'd like. If you just want to dismiss any solution besides mass incarceration and more policing out of hand, so be it. There's not much room for discussion there.

 

edit: this is where the "government isn't a nanny state, but it is a brutal, abusive fatherfigure" thinking gets us:

 

I'm sick and tired of my fellow Americans being beaten and killed and harassed and robbed by state security forces.

Edited June 4, 2020 by StrangeSox

[StrangeSox]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

How are people today personally responsible for their parents and grandparents being discriminated against.

“I must remind you that starving a child is violence. Neglecting school children is violence. Punishing a mother and her family is violence. Discrimination against a working man is violence. Ghetto housing is violence. Ignoring medical need is violence. Contempt for poverty is violence.”

-Coretta Scott King, wife of a man who was murdered for his nonviolent advocacy.

[Boopa1219]

20 hours ago, SoxAce said:

I would just like to say @Joshua Strong, your post have been very good to read in this thread and you definitely "get it". Thank you. 

You don’t have to thank me. I hope I was able to get some people to look outside themselves and see how the world treats minorities, especially black men and women.

As a black person it’s frustrating that I have to do this so often.

There’s someone from the forum who I talked to this this weekend and confronted because their immediate reaction to the protesting wasn’t the murder and brutality by the police but the property damage that happened in the city. I tried telling this person that there’s opportunist that are hijacking the movement to loot and steal but they kept blaming BLM and the protestors. I’m ashamed of myself for continuing to engage that person but a lost cause is a lost cause and I won’t make that mistake again. I hope that person gets that upset every time an innocent person of color is killed by the police but who am I kidding.

If you want help out what’s going on, check out this link which will put you in contact with petitions and funding campaigns for some of black people who have recently been killed at the hands of police officers. Here’s the link: https://blacklivesmatters.carrd.co/

While all this talk surrounding the MURDER of George Floyd is happening, we can’t get forget the MURDER of Breonna Taylor. She was an EMT and she was murdered by three police officers who busted the wrong residence. The police officers are still on the force at this moment in Louisville. Her donation fund is here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/9v4q2-justice-for-breonna-taylor

I’ve been on the ground a lot the past five or six days doing what I can to help out the cause and to help other people across the city by doing supply runs and offering up shelter. This is the beginning of something and I’m proud to be a part of it. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Joshua Strong

[caulfield12]

35 minutes ago, Joshua Strong said:

You don’t have to thank me. I hope I was able to get some people to look outside themselves and see how the world treats minorities, especially black men and women.

As a black person it’s frustrating that I have to do this so often.

There’s someone from the forum who I talked to this this weekend and confronted because their immediate reaction to the protesting wasn’t the property damage and brutality by the police but the property damaged that happened in the city. I tried telling this person that there’s opportunist that are hijacking the movement to loot and steal but they kept blaming BLM and the protestors. I’m ashamed of myself for continuing to engage that person but a lost cause is a lost cause and I won’t make that mistake again. I hope that person gets that upset every time an innocent person of color is killed by the police but who am I kidding.

If you want help out what’s going on, check out this link which will put you in contact with petitions and funding campaigns for some of black people who have recently been killed at the hands of police officers. Here’s the link: https://blacklivesmatters.carrd.co/

While all this talk surrounding the MURDER of George Floyd is happening, we can’t get forget the MURDER of Breonna Taylor. She was an EMT and she was murdered by three police officers who busted the wrong residence. The police officers are still on the force at this moment in Louisville. Her donation fund is here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/9v4q2-justice-for-breonna-taylor

I’ve been on the ground a lot the past five or six days doing what I can to help out the cause and to help other people across the city by doing supply runs and offering up shelter. This is the beginning of something and I’m proud to be a part of it. 

The Taylor case is definitely wrongful death/police incompetence....but would be extremely difficult to prove murder in a court of law.  Shot eight times, though...it’s a horrific example of overkill that was buried in the news cycle for weeks, partially because of gender.

With the Floyd charges, I’m betting Keith Ellison has something more definitive on their previous interactions that allows for malice/premeditation to enter into the prosecutorial approach.   And then there are those 17-18 previous complaints, and how many of them were filed by African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, Somalian-Americans, etc., to establish a discernible pattern...of directed targeting, versus generalized brutality towards everyone.

[Jack Parkman]

23 hours ago, Butter Parque said:

And that doesn't have anything to do with personal responsibility?

Ah, yes....personal responsibility.....AKA turning societal discrimination of people who aren't your stereotypical white male into a character flaw.  Using that argument assumes that everyone is on a level playing field, and that's nowhere near the case. To suggest that it is is naive at best, and perpetuating institutional discrimination at worst. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[southsideirish71]

5 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

You are never going to police away crime. We see the fruits of that effort across the nation again tonight.

Our current system creates massive underserved, impoverished communities of all races, though there are obviously desperate impacts. These are the conditions that bring about social disorder and crime. Pushing all of these issues onto policing ensures we have a never-ending, typically escalating cycle of poverty, crime and violence.

 

I provided a whole book to read if you'd like. If you just want to dismiss any solution besides mass incarceration and more policing out of hand, so be it. There's not much room for discussion there.

 

edit: this is where the "government isn't a nanny state, but it is a brutal, abusive fatherfigure" thinking gets us:

 

I'm sick and tired of my fellow Americans being beaten and killed and harassed and robbed by state security forces.

Almost 1200 people have been shot in Chicago this year. 5 involved the police.  It's amazing how we overlook the systematic violence that happens outside of the police. I can't wait to see how you fix rape, murder, armed robbery without prisons.  Maybe you think you can rehabilitate the child molester. How about the serial killer.  Maybe some intervention with a social worker.

Edited June 4, 2020 by southsideirish71

[greg775]

12 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

There’s a dying lemon tree at my family’s house, it still sprouts a few good lemons every once in a while but because it’s a dying tree most of the lemons turn out to be shit.

There needs to be a complete overhaul of the system, from the ground up. 

As u all know I come up with direct simple solutions that some hate. The government has been spending a lotta money of late so bear with me on MY solution.

OK quickly: a.) Kamala Harris, most of the candidates, I think Joe B as well, are for reparations. I think at that one debate they all were in favor of reparations. Personally I think the reparation cash NOW must be significant, not some amount like 1000 bucks. Because of these never-ending incidents of unabashed uncalled for murder of cops on African Americans, give $1 million dollars to each single African American person and $1 million total to every married African American "family." Somebody do the quick math for me how much money that would be (again remember the $$s going out during COVID; the amount is staggering and proves our government can print money and send it out).

For once and all make this commitment to righting wrongs of the past and present. Hopefully the economy will survive giving $1 million to each person and/or family. This should eliminate the current hard hard feelings. Emphasize the word 'should.' That is a lot of money, folks.

Finally b.) Vote in Biden over Trump this fall. We only have a few months to go. Be patient everybody. Have him appoint an African American person in each American city to a well paid position called "Police Watchdog" or some nicer term, Police Inspector. Paid for by tax money. They meet regularly with the police chief and in fact are required to have an office adjacent to the chief's office in EVERY city. And they have POWER like the chief to make decisions. That's it. Those are my two suggestions. The police watchdog duties will include REGULAR meetings with the community members. If the watchdog catches any internal grief from police or the chief (bullying) that person has the duty to call for a hearing immediately to get that crap stopped!

What say you to my suggestions? I tried to keep them brief since I enflame a lot on here. Please point out why either of my ideas are good or bad. Everybody talks about solutions; at least I have two here that in MY MIND make some sense. It's going to take brainstorms and those are mine.

Edited June 4, 2020 by greg775

[Kyyle23]

I read that

[SoxAce]

9 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

You don’t have to thank me. I hope I was able to get some people to look outside themselves and see how the world treats minorities, especially black men and women.

As a black person it’s frustrating that I have to do this so often.

That explains it. Cut from the same cloth... literally. 

[caulfield12]

5 hours ago, greg775 said:

As u all know I come up with direct simple solutions that some hate. The government has been spending a lotta money of late so bear with me on MY solution.

OK quickly: a.) Kamala Harris, most of the candidates, I think Joe B as well, are for reparations. I think at that one debate they all were in favor of reparations. Personally I think the reparation cash NOW must be significant, not some amount like 1000 bucks. Because of these never-ending incidents of unabashed uncalled for murder of cops on African Americans, give $1 million dollars to each single African American person and $1 million total to every married African American "family." Somebody do the quick math for me how much money that would be (again remember the $$s going out during COVID; the amount is staggering and proves our government can print money and send it out).

For once and all make this commitment to righting wrongs of the past and present. Hopefully the economy will survive giving $1 million to each person and/or family. This should eliminate the current hard hard feelings. Emphasize the word 'should.' That is a lot of money, folks.

Finally b.) Vote in Biden over Trump this fall. We only have a few months to go. Be patient everybody. Have him appoint an African American person in each American city to a well paid position called "Police Watchdog" or some nicer term, Police Inspector. Paid for by tax money. They meet regularly with the police chief and in fact are required to have an office adjacent to the chief's office in EVERY city. And they have POWER like the chief to make decisions. That's it. Those are my two suggestions. The police watchdog duties will include REGULAR meetings with the community members. If the watchdog catches any internal grief from police or the chief (bullying) that person has the duty to call for a hearing immediately to get that crap stopped!

What say you to my suggestions? I tried to keep them brief since I enflame a lot on here. Please point out why either of my ideas are good or bad. Everybody talks about solutions; at least I have two here that in MY MIND make some sense. It's going to take brainstorms and those are mine.

Well, this is kind of what China does, except your kid basically has no right to a public education or government insurance/subsidy for delivering the baby in the hospital if you’re an unmarried woman.

Carrot or stick?  Reward or punisment?

I imagine doing this while leaving out Native Americans, Hispanic-Americans and certain immigrant groups (like Hmong) from Southeast Asia would go over about as well as the government forgiving all current student loan debt.

Raising the taxes on all other ethnic groups by 3-5% would be considered tyranny by those whose ancestors never owned slaves or were involved in the slave trade.   Imagine how well “punishing” those living in the former Confederate States 155 years later would go over now.   Wouldn’t that just create more animosity and resentment?  Or this idea that “racism” can never be brought up again...that money has somehow magically cured the problem and changed peoples’ hearts.  

Relying on donations (like the checkoffs when you do your taxes) or on foundations/corporations/private individuals would be better.

Softbank (Japanese firm) just announced a $100 million venture capital/entrepreneurship/tech-driven investment fund for minority-led enterprises.

[Texsox]

12 hours ago, Butter Parque said:

And that doesn't have anything to do with personal responsibility?

It does. But being responsible does not guarantee food security in this country and a wealthy irresponsible person can grow up to be president. We want to believe that being a hard working responsible adult will assure a decent life. In reality it probably is for white people. Others, it's a great start, but there is still a ways to go. 

All in all a wealthy middle class loafing, irresponsible, coke blowing, white dude will out perform a tenth generation poor, responsible, hard working, non white dude. 

As SS pointed out and I will add to, the solution is building better adults rather than fixing messed up adults with a for profit justice and prison system. We have huge economic systems in place to make money on non violent offenders who are generally poor and uneducated. 

[Jack Parkman]

15 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It does. But being responsible does not guarantee food security in this country and a wealthy irresponsible person can grow up to be president. We want to believe that being a hard working responsible adult will assure a decent life. In reality it probably is for white people. Others, it's a great start, but there is still a ways to go. 

All in all a wealthy middle class loafing, irresponsible, coke blowing, white dude will out perform a tenth generation poor, responsible, hard working, non white dude. 

As SS pointed out and I will add to, the solution is building better adults rather than fixing messed up adults with a for profit justice and prison system. We have huge economic systems in place to make money on non violent offenders who are generally poor and uneducated. 

Wonderful Post. 

[Texsox]

I've told the story here before but it was life changing for me. Back during one of the Bulls championship season playoff games at the original stadium we arrived early for a Sunday afternoon game. We got an easy out at our usual lot facing the street and the high rises across the street. The weather was perfect and there were dozens of kids playing in the courtyard at the apartments. I believe that's Robert Taylor Homes. We had a six pack in the car and a couple beef sandwiches. We planned on obviously pregaming a bit. Just as I was about to pop up the first beer I see a couple beat cops slooooowly walking towards the car. Not wanting any trouble we hide the beer and wait, and wait, and wait. Damn those lazy ass cops walked so slow. Finally they get past us and we pop the first one. A couple minutes later we hear popping sounds and see kids running everywhere in that courtyard. I vividly remember a kid about sixteen scooping up a toddler in one smooth motion and keep running, ducking for cover. It looked chaotic and kids were diving around corners. Next I see those same two lazy ass cops running towards the gunshots with their guns pulled. #Respect. 

After about a dozen cops pulled up the parking lot attendant who we knew was an off duty CPD guy knocked on our window, "Why the hell didn't you morons duck? Did you think that windshield was going to safe your ass from a bullet? Didn't you hear me knocking on your car?" Nope, we were frozen. 

Later I was telling my wife about it and realized my kids would have no idea to run from those sounds. My kids would have no clue how to survive in that environment and as a parent I would not know how to help them. How good of a parent can anyone be living there? 

And later I scoured the Sun Times and Tribune. No news. Gunshots at a "project" isn't news. Just another day in the life. 

[ron883]

The looting and destruction seems to have slowed down significantly thankfully. My area (east Lakeview) remained relatively untouched. Hope others managed to avoid all the madness. 

[Iwritecode]

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

I've told the story here before but it was life changing for me. Back during one of the Bulls championship season playoff games at the original stadium we arrived early for a Sunday afternoon game. We got an easy out at our usual lot facing the street and the high rises across the street. The weather was perfect and there were dozens of kids playing in the courtyard at the apartments. I believe that's Robert Taylor Homes.

 

The Robert Taylor Homes were much farther south. Across from the Sox park.

[ron883]

8 minutes ago, Iwritecode said:

 

The Robert Taylor Homes were much farther south. Across from the Sox park.

He's probably thinking of the Henry Horner homes. This was before my time, but I believe there were still occupied when Chicago stadium was still standing. 

[Texsox]

11 minutes ago, Iwritecode said:

 

The Robert Taylor Homes were much farther south. Across from the Sox park.

Henry Horner? 

Let's play match the stadium to the housing.

[Iwritecode]

5 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Henry Horner? 

Let's play match the stadium to the housing.

That's probably right. 

I just remember people always talking about the Robert Taylor homes being visible from the upper deck in New Comiskey before they were torn down. That's the only reason I knew. Not trying to take anything away from your story though. I would probably be the same way.

Our neighbor's have been letting off fireworks almost every night for the last week or so for some reason and one night my wife asked me if they were fireworks or gunshots. I said fireworks and she was like "How would you even know what gunshots sound like?"

She has a point. It's not something we hear in our neighborhood, like ever.

 

[Jack Parkman]

 I don't have to worry too much about my safety, black folks have to whenever they leave home. That's why people are in the streets protesting. Enough is enough. 

Everyone affected is tired of being different in any way, whether it's skin color, being a non-Christian, being an immigrant, being disabled, being female, you name it.....being warped into some kind of character flaw. 

It's not having a victim mentality, it's acknowledging that there are serious societal roadblocks to overcoming poverty. 

No amount of mindset change, no amount of hard work, no amount of education...can overcome the societal roadblocks that exist for people who are different..... they can all do the best they can...but at some point, you have to stop pointing the finger at them and look in the mirror. What can you do to help create change? It starts by listening, and self reflecting. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Jack Parkman