George Floyd Thread

[StrangeSox]

 

[StrangeSox]

18 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Good luck with that.  The first gang banger who decides to disobey your volunteer non-violent force.  Good luck arresting anyone that has a weapon.  It will be the wild west.  

We've tried your way. It breeds more violence, more crime, more poverty, more suffering.

 

 

 

For local news, the mayor of Joliet, former cop, got in on the violence:

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by StrangeSox

[southsider2k5]

13 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

How are people today personally responsible for their parents and grandparents being discriminated against.

Its a bit hokey, as it is was designed for kids, but this is a great way of putting the generational effects of poverty and discrimination into a skit.  It is WAY bigger than personal responsibility as a society.  At the very end, where you have the kids who don't even run, those are the kids who turn into adults who poison the next generation, and they take down the generation after that, etc.  Why run a rigged race?  There are A LOT of people who feel that way, and teach their kids the exact same thing.  So while it is easy to say it isn't my fault they ended up that way, WE ALL are the ones who bear the greater burden.  Who pays for them as adults who can't contribute to society?  We all do.

 

[southsideirish71]

21 minutes ago, StrangeSox said:

We've tried your way. It breeds more violence, more crime, more poverty, more suffering.

 

 

 

I love this defund the police movement.  Maybe in your new utopia the police are not needed and you can send your army of social workers and others out.  Great I cant wait to hear how a social worker is going to stop gang bangers from shooting each other. Maybe some therapy, a hug, or a stern look in their general direction.  Maybe as you empty the prisons you can give us your address so we can target an area to relocate the serial killers, murders, child molesters, rapists and other violent offenders.   I sure as hell dont want them in my back yard.  I am sure they didn't get enough love and opportunities when they grew up as well.   Well good luck with your experiment.  

[Kyyle23]

Gonna think about reparations for the rest of the day now.  Can't stop

 

 

[StrangeSox]

58 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

I love this defund the police movement.  Maybe in your new utopia the police are not needed and you can send your army of social workers and others out.  Great I cant wait to hear how a social worker is going to stop gang bangers from shooting each other. Maybe some therapy, a hug, or a stern look in their general direction.  Maybe as you empty the prisons you can give us your address so we can target an area to relocate the serial killers, murders, child molesters, rapists and other violent offenders.   I sure as hell dont want them in my back yard.  I am sure they didn't get enough love and opportunities when they grew up as well.   Well good luck with your experiment.  

I linked an interview and an entire book that discusses these ideas at length if you're interested in understanding them. 

There were always be murders, of course. Beyond the top level slogan is a recognition of that and a proposal of a better way forward that will reduce overall crimes, reduce the societal burdens on policing, while still being able to handle the sorts of situations you're bringing up. 

Our current method of using policing as our main tool combined with mass incarceration has very clearly failed. We would likely need to start over root and branch given the current state of things. That's the core of the movement, but it doesn't naively pretend that there will be no crimes after that. 

 

Edit: to get to the heart of it, you're assuming a world where "gang bangers" always exist and will always exist as they currently do. If you address the things that lead to gangs and crime in the first place, rather than reactively through state use of force via police, you can reduce crime and the overall need for policing in the first place. It's not like there aren't plenty of countries we can point to a examples of much stronger social systems, lower crime rates, and much less policing and incarceration all over the world.

Edited June 4, 2020 by StrangeSox

[Texsox]

Imagine all the people . . .

[Quin]

Well, Minneapolis' City Council is considering disbanding it's police force.

http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-city-council-members-consider-disbanding-the-police/570993291?fbclid=IwAR1lhTV97PGf9fQuDz56ZifAXyADM1Ru4m5JxXpeY3q8uUQjGeuSknvmFao

[Kyyle23]

14 minutes ago, Quin said:

Well, Minneapolis' City Council is considering disbanding it's police force.

http://www.citypages.com/news/minneapolis-city-council-members-consider-disbanding-the-police/570993291?fbclid=IwAR1lhTV97PGf9fQuDz56ZifAXyADM1Ru4m5JxXpeY3q8uUQjGeuSknvmFao

This is lame Sabre rattling.   It really accomplishes nothing because nobody is gonna disband their Pd and be left with a vacuum of law enforcement for however long of a time it will be to replace that force, and the guys on the way out certainly aren't gonna help 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, southsideirish71 said:

I love this defund the police movement.  Maybe in your new utopia the police are not needed and you can send your army of social workers and others out.  Great I cant wait to hear how a social worker is going to stop gang bangers from shooting each other. Maybe some therapy, a hug, or a stern look in their general direction.  Maybe as you empty the prisons you can give us your address so we can target an area to relocate the serial killers, murders, child molesters, rapists and other violent offenders.   I sure as hell dont want them in my back yard.  I am sure they didn't get enough love and opportunities when they grew up as well.   Well good luck with your experiment.  

Every time you repeat this it reinforces how much of a problem the police are.

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Every time you repeat this it reinforces how much of a problem the police are.

Yep. Punishing gang members without addressing the underlying reasons for gangs existing is counterproductive, and perpetuates poverty. 

Crime is a symptom, not the disease. The disease is the socioeconomic conditions that push people to become criminals because they can't support themselves legally. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Balta1701]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yep. Punishing gang members without addressing the underlying reasons for gangs existing is counterproductive, and perpetuates poverty. 

Crime is a symptom, not the disease. The disease is the socioeconomic conditions that push people to become criminals because they can't support themselves legally. 

Not just that, he's deliberately choosing language there for a reason. Note that you said "Gang members" and he didn't...and he's repeated that term more than once in this thread.

[Jack Parkman]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Not just that, he's deliberately choosing language there for a reason. Note that you said "Gang members" and he didn't...and he's repeated that term more than once in this thread.

People who join gangs do so because they've been rejected by society. They have no means to sustain themselves legally.....When you're so desperate that the choice is to live a life of crime or starve to death, how can you blame them? In a lot of ways, crime is a direct result of socioeconomic abandonment. People have exhausted their means of making a living legally, so the run the risk of incarceration in order to survive. If they go to prison, at least they'll get 3 meals a day and healthcare...at least they'll survive. 

We've literally created a society where chronic unemployment is worse than prison, and we wonder why people turn into criminals. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[southsideirish71]

19 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Every time you repeat this it reinforces how much of a problem the police are.

I am sorry.  Organized groups of people who use alternative means of obtaining wealth and pharmacy.  I am sorry that I offended the Latin Kings and Gangster Disciples constituent of soxtalk.  My bad.  

[southsideirish71]

10 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

People who join gangs do so because they've been rejected by society. They have no means to sustain themselves legally.....When you're so desperate that the choice is to live a life of crime or starve to death, how can you blame them? In a lot of ways, crime is a direct result of socioeconomic abandonment. People have exhausted their means of making a living legally, so the run the risk of incarceration in order to survive. If they go to prison, at least they'll get 3 meals a day and healthcare...at least they'll survive. 

We've literally created a society where chronic unemployment is worse than prison, and we wonder why people turn into criminals. 

Really.  So explain organized crime to me.  Do you think that the Outfit in Chicago or the mob is made up of people who are currently suffering from being rejected by society.  Do you think they are doing this to put 3 meals a day on the table.  

[Texsox]

3 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

Really.  So explain organized crime to me.  Do you think that the Outfit in Chicago or the mob is made up of people who are currently suffering from being rejected by society.  Do you think they are doing this to put 3 meals a day on the table.  

I'm certain there are some that is to put three meals a day on the table and they feel like they aren't welcome in society. I also believe some have a choice and made a bad one. I find it impossible to paint them all with the same brush. But you seem to not have a problem at all combining them all in one group. 

[The Beast]

Contrary to what has been posted, I am proud to see peaceful protests in Downers Grove and the police officers responding well:

https://www.nbcchicago.com/top-videos-home/suburban-police-offices-kneel-with-protesters/2283848/?fbclid=IwAR21az4dTXRGLm3X2SC0lk8dkBoL9f1OlmvSN-4i-SYljVzu3Al7PyPYIyo
 

The Downers Grove mayor has been a leader in promoting peace and a peaceful response too. He’s doing a great job.

[Boopa1219]

A must read article by Ta-Neshi Coates of the Atlantic (he also just ended his run on Black Panther for Marvel). 
 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

[southsideirish71]

39 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yep. Punishing gang members without addressing the underlying reasons for gangs existing is counterproductive, and perpetuates poverty. 

 Crime is a symptom, not the disease. The disease is the socioeconomic conditions that push people to become criminals because they can't support themselves legally. 

So serial killers who are mainly white and middle class are killing people because of socioeconomic conditions?  What about rapist?  What about pedophiles?  Murder?  Domestic Abuse?  Child Abuse?  You can counter this and point to certain types of crime and find a correlation with the act and the motivation with regards to their situation.  But some people would commit crime no matter what their situation is.     You can terraform society all you want.  Its not going to eliminate crime.  

[Texsox]

If you are looking for an easy one size fits all approach it isn't out there. Unfortunately we're trying to use the same law and punishment system on everyone. That doesn't work.  

[Boopa1219]

 

[Jack Parkman]

6 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Really.  So explain organized crime to me.  Do you think that the Outfit in Chicago or the mob is made up of people who are currently suffering from being rejected by society.  Do you think they are doing this to put 3 meals a day on the table.  

That's how it started in the early 20th century, yes. Later it was because a person was willing to take the risk of being killed and jailed over being poor or working class. So yeah, it's always been socioeconomically based. 

6 hours ago, Texsox said:

I'm certain there are some that is to put three meals a day on the table and they feel like they aren't welcome in society. I also believe some have a choice and made a bad one. I find it impossible to paint them all with the same brush. But you seem to not have a problem at all combining them all in one group. 

Exactly. Crime is not black and white. 

5 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

So serial killers who are mainly white and middle class are killing people because of socioeconomic conditions?  What about rapist?  What about pedophiles?  Murder?  Domestic Abuse?  Child Abuse?  You can counter this and point to certain types of crime and find a correlation with the act and the motivation with regards to their situation.  But some people would commit crime no matter what their situation is.     You can terraform society all you want.  Its not going to eliminate crime.  

All crimes have a socioeconomic factor, but I'm not going to pretend that lowering the income gap will completely eliminate crime. It would significantly help. 

With even the most violent criminals, they're usually a victim of abuse or neglect. There may be some genetic predisposition to sociopathy but it's not usually activated without childhood trauma. 

Pedophiles and sexual abusers were usually victims of pedophilia or sexual abuse themselves. 

Domestic abusers are usually children of domestic abusers.

Most of those things happen because of poverty. The key is to break the cycle. 

The bottom line is that poverty affects the brain. 

Income inequality and crime are proportional. Higher income inequality, higher crime. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Dick Allen]

There are good cops and bad cops just like there are good and bad in every occupation. They key is weeding out the bad. One problem police have is the code of silence people take when they see crimes committed. They are too scared, and many times, if not most, rightfully so, about retribution. The same type of code of silence is present in police departments everywhere. They don't report misconduct. They don't even admit they have seen it when it is being investigated. If this code of silence can ever be broken, witnesses don't have to fear for their life to report what they have seen. Cops don't have to fear the living hell of reporting a fellow officer's wrongdoing,  everything will be much better.

One idea I have is teaming black officers with white officers.  Most of the racists are pretty cowardly. They won't show it, at least as much, in front of a black colleague. 

[greg775]

6 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

I imagine doing this while leaving out Native Americans, Hispanic-Americans and certain immigrant groups (like Hmong) from Southeast Asia would go over about as well as the government forgiving all current student loan debt.

Or this idea that “racism” can never be brought up again...that money has somehow magically cured the problem and changed peoples’ hearts.  

As far as leaving out other groups ... there's no history of slavery with them is there? If you could figure a way to do it, then give each of them $500,000. As far as the money not curing the problem, that would be really really be confusing if it didn't cure the problem. How could there still. be racial unrest if each person or family gets $1 million? That's a lot of money and quite a fair amount for reparations.

Edited June 4, 2020 by greg775

[pcq]

"Take your knee off my neck".