George Floyd Thread

[Kyyle23]

Greg you can't throw money at the problem like that ffs

[southsideirish71]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

That's how it started in the early 20th century, yes. Later it was because a person was willing to take the risk of being killed and jailed over being poor or working class. So yeah, it's always been socioeconomically based. 

Exactly. Crime is not black and white. 

All crime has a socioeconomic factor. 

With even the most violent criminals, they're usually a victim of abuse or neglect. There may be some genetic predisposition but it's not usually activated without childhood trauma. 

Pedophiles and sexual abusers were usually victims of pedophilia or sexual abuse themselves. 

Domestic abusers are usually children of domestic abusers.

Most of those things happen because of poverty. The key is to break the cycle. 

The bottom line is that poverty affects the brain. 

Income inequality and crime are proportional. Higher income inequality, higher crime. 

"All" crime.  This simplistic one thing causes all is not correct.  I can agree that poverty and your upbringing can impact a persons development.  However there are people who are rich that are evil.  There have been trust fund babies and millionaires who have also killed people.   Just creating your socialist utopia where everyone is equal might seem great.  But people are still human.  And the minute someone comes home and finds their wife in the bed with their best friend.  Your theory goes to shit.   Crime will happen no matter how much you flatten the curve.  The types of crimes and the numbers might change.  But people are people.  And some people suck.  Show me one socialist utopia where there is no crime because you have eliminated it with equality.  I will wait.    

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

"All" crime.  This simplistic one thing causes all is not correct.  I can agree that poverty and your upbringing can impact a persons development.  However there are people who are rich that are evil.  There have been trust fund babies and millionaires who have also killed people.   Just creating your socialist utopia where everyone is equal might seem great.  But people are still human.  And the minute someone comes home and finds their wife in the bed with their best friend.  Your theory goes to shit.   Crime will happen no matter how much you flatten the curve.  The types of crimes and the numbers might change.  But people are people.  And some people suck.  Show me one socialist utopia where there is no crime because you have eliminated it with equality.  I will wait.    

I agree that crime will always exist, but I was answering directly the examples you gave.

While it won't completely disappear, if you make the penalties for fraud more severe, and lift up the poor and address systemic discrimination, it will go down substantially.  FYI Norway, Sweden and Finland have among the Lowest crime rates in the world. I wonder why? 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[southsideirish71]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I agree that crime will always exist, but I was answering directly the examples you gave.

 While it won't completely disappear, if you make the penalties for fraud more severe, and lift up the poor and address systemic discrimination, it will go down substantially.  FYI Norway, Sweden and Finland have among the Lowest crime rates in the world. I wonder why? 

Okay I have to ask.  Why out of all of the crimes we talked about? You decided that Fraud was the hill you wanted  to build your argument on and to ensure it was penalized more.

Edited June 4, 2020 by southsideirish71

[StrangeSox]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

If you are looking for an easy one size fits all approach it isn't out there. Unfortunately we're trying to use the same law and punishment system on everyone. That doesn't work.  

 

[StrangeSox]

10 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

"All" crime.  This simplistic one thing causes all is not correct.  I can agree that poverty and your upbringing can impact a persons development.  However there are people who are rich that are evil.  There have been trust fund babies and millionaires who have also killed people.   Just creating your socialist utopia where everyone is equal might seem great.  But people are still human.  And the minute someone comes home and finds their wife in the bed with their best friend.  Your theory goes to shit.   Crime will happen no matter how much you flatten the curve.  The types of crimes and the numbers might change.  But people are people.  And some people suck.  Show me one socialist utopia where there is no crime because you have eliminated it with equality.  I will wait.    

You are arguing against positions nobody is taking, and this has been pointed out several times to you now.

[southsideirish71]

Just now, StrangeSox said:

 You are arguing against positions nobody is taking, and this has been pointed out several times to you now.

Well someone is taking it.  Hence why I responded to him.  "All" is the word he used.  

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

Okay I have to ask.  Why out of all of the crimes we talked about? You decided that Fraud was the hill you wanted to ensure was penalized more.

Mostly to discourage things like ponzi schemes and other white collar crime. 

Serious offenses are already punished severely. Fraud is a tool of the wealthy to rip off the rest of society. And most of the time jail sentences are a joke. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

Well someone is taking it.  Hence why I responded to him.  "All" is the word he used.  

You do realize "socioeconomic" is a broad term that includes basically every aspect of human life, right? 

So yes, all crime is based on sociology or economics. 

Crimes of passion are sociological. 

Ponzi schemes are economic. 

There are socioeconomic reasons why rich people commit crimes too, mostly having to do with entitlement and thinking that they can buy their way out of prison, among other things.  

Edited June 4, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[southsideirish71]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

 Mostly to discourage things like ponzi schemes and other white collar crime. 

 Serious offenses are already punished severely. Fraud is a tool of the wealthy to rip off the rest of society. And most of the time jail sentences are a joke. 

Fraud is a tool of the wealthy?   

[StrangeSox]

6 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

Well someone is taking it.  Hence why I responded to him.  "All" is the word he used.  

I was referring to this part:

Crime will happen no matter how much you flatten the curve.  The types of crimes and the numbers might change.  But people are people.  And some people suck.  Show me one socialist utopia where there is no crime because you have eliminated it with equality.  I will wait.    

 

I'm pretty sure we all agree that you will never elminate crime. This is not an argument anyone in this thread of the people who have written at length about radically changing the nature of policing believe. Earlier in this thread, I linked a book as well as an interview with the author of the book. I even quoted an excerpt from the interview where he specifically addresses the sort of question you're bringing up. Here it is again:

 

 

Quote

 

There are obviously a lot of people who agree broadly with the notion that the way that policing happens in this country is a problem and that there needs to be some sort of change. But they're pretty invested in the idea that police are needed to maintain public safety. People ask the question, without police, what do you do when someone gets murdered? What do you do when someone's house gets robbed? What do you say to those people who have those concerns?

Well, I'm certainly not talking about any kind of scenario where tomorrow someone just flips a switch and there are no police. What I'm talking about is the systematic questioning of the specific roles that police currently undertake, and attempting to develop evidence-based alternatives so that we can dial back our reliance on them. And my feeling is that this encompasses actually the vast majority of what police do. We have better alternatives for them.

Even if you take something like burglary — a huge amount of burglary activity is driven by drug use. And we need to completely rethink our approach to drugs so that property crime isn't the primary way that people access drugs. We don't have any part of this country that has high-quality medical drug treatment on demand. But we have policing on demand everywhere. And it's not working.

 

 

You don't fix things over night by simply "defunding the police," or "abolishing the police." It's a long road of total reform.

 

 

[TaylorStSox]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

You do realize "socioeconomic" is a broad term that includes basically every aspect of human life, right? 

 

This is simply untrue. Socioeconomic is the combination of social and economic factors and how one impacts another. Crimes of passion aren't socioeconomic. 

[Texsox]

https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/Man-critically-injured-by-Austin-police-during-15316983.php?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mysa_afternoonheadlines&utm_content=news&stn=nf

A couple things to notice:

They were shooting at a person next to him and missed causing a critical injury. Comm Arts is a magnet school in my district. I can tell you he has to be a really smart kid. It's an all AP curriculum with really high standards. I taught next door and had their students on my golf team. 

[StrangeSox]

18 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

You don’t have to thank me. I hope I was able to get some people to look outside themselves and see how the world treats minorities, especially black men and women.

As a black person it’s frustrating that I have to do this so often.

There’s someone from the forum who I talked to this this weekend and confronted because their immediate reaction to the protesting wasn’t the murder and brutality by the police but the property damage that happened in the city. I tried telling this person that there’s opportunist that are hijacking the movement to loot and steal but they kept blaming BLM and the protestors. I’m ashamed of myself for continuing to engage that person but a lost cause is a lost cause and I won’t make that mistake again. I hope that person gets that upset every time an innocent person of color is killed by the police but who am I kidding.

If you want help out what’s going on, check out this link which will put you in contact with petitions and funding campaigns for some of black people who have recently been killed at the hands of police officers. Here’s the link: https://blacklivesmatters.carrd.co/

While all this talk surrounding the MURDER of George Floyd is happening, we can’t get forget the MURDER of Breonna Taylor. She was an EMT and she was murdered by three police officers who busted the wrong residence. The police officers are still on the force at this moment in Louisville. Her donation fund is here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/9v4q2-justice-for-breonna-taylor

I’ve been on the ground a lot the past five or six days doing what I can to help out the cause and to help other people across the city by doing supply runs and offering up shelter. This is the beginning of something and I’m proud to be a part of it. 

 

 

[Heads22]

 

I really appreciated this with the Colts GM. If you've got like 15 minutes, its worth a watch....how he said he always considered himself "colorblind" but that that viewpoint really helped no one; plus a lot more.

[Butter Parque]

13 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Ah, yes....personal responsibility.....AKA turning societal discrimination of people who aren't white, able-bodied, neurotypical males into a character flaw.  Using that argument assumes that everyone is on a level playing field, and that's nowhere near the case. To suggest that it is is naive at best, and perpetuating institutional discrimination at worst. 

Staying around to raise your kids is not a special feat. It's also not discriminatory. 65 percent of black kids live in a household with one parent. 

Why should anyone else be responsible for raising those kids other than the parents who conceived them?

Use some form of birth control, don't have kids until you can afford it, when you do have kids, place an emphasis on education within the household. 

Let's just try that experiment and see where the black community is in 20 years. 

[Butter Parque]

5 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Just think about this: 

I'm a white disabled male, and I'm beyond frustrated about people making patronizing, dehumanizing comments and dismissing my life experiences as invalid and lies. A lot of these people are political moderates. 

If I'm beyond frustrated....how do you think black folks feel who have it significantly worse? I don't have to worry too much about my safety, black folks have to whenever they leave home. That's why people are in the streets protesting. Enough is enough. 

Everyone affected is tired of being different in any way, whether it's skin color, being a non-Christian, being an immigrant, being disabled, being female, you name it.....being warped into some kind of character flaw. 

It's not having a victim mentality, it's acknowledging that there are serious societal roadblocks to overcoming poverty. 

No amount of mindset change, no amount of hard work, no amount of education...can overcome the societal roadblocks that exist for people who are different.....We can all do the best we can...but at some point, you have to stop pointing the finger at us and look in the mirror. What can you do to help create change? It starts by listening, and self reflecting. 

I don't know what to tell you. Going through life thinking there's no way that you can ever succeed isn't exactly the best recipe for ever actually succeeding. 

If I told my child that he/she has no chance of ever making it in life, what would be their reason for living? 

[Butter Parque]

5 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Its a bit hokey, as it is was designed for kids, but this is a great way of putting the generational effects of poverty and discrimination into a skit.  It is WAY bigger than personal responsibility as a society.  At the very end, where you have the kids who don't even run, those are the kids who turn into adults who poison the next generation, and they take down the generation after that, etc.  Why run a rigged race?  There are A LOT of people who feel that way, and teach their kids the exact same thing.  So while it is easy to say it isn't my fault they ended up that way, WE ALL are the ones who bear the greater burden.  Who pays for them as adults who can't contribute to society?  We all do.

 

But brainwashing the white youth into walking around with some sort of generational guilt is a good thing for their prospects in life?

[Butter Parque]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yep. Punishing gang members without addressing the underlying reasons for gangs existing is counterproductive, and perpetuates poverty. 

Crime is a symptom, not the disease. The disease is the socioeconomic conditions that push people to become criminals because they can't support themselves legally. 

You go talk to them. Go into Social Work if you'd like and you can make all the house-calls you please. 

I don't want to talk to them. If they had a mother and a father around who disciplined them, who made it a requirement for them to perform in the classroom, I don't believe they'd need to turn to drug-dealing as a means to get by. 

As a taxpayer, I'm often paying for their school breakfast, school lunch, section 8 housing, WIC/EBT. How much more can others do before they lift themselves up and search out something better?

[Texsox]

3 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

How much more can others do before they lift themselves up and search out something better?

It's hard to lift yourself up with a knee on your neck. Literally and metaphorically. 

[southsider2k5]

24 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

But brainwashing the white youth into walking around with some sort of generational guilt is a good thing for their prospects in life?

It is much better to say F those kids for not figuring out how to get past it.  I mean what is the worst that could happen?

[southsider2k5]

19 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

You go talk to them. Go into Social Work if you'd like and you can make all the house-calls you please. 

I don't want to talk to them. If they had a mother and a father around who disciplined them, who made it a requirement for them to perform in the classroom, I don't believe they'd need to turn to drug-dealing as a means to get by. 

As a taxpayer, I'm often paying for their school breakfast, school lunch, section 8 housing, WIC/EBT. How much more can others do before they lift themselves up and search out something better?

It would help if you would realize that the price of not getting people out of poverty IS the price all of the things that you listed.  You are using this bootstraps mentality for people who don't have boots.

[Butter Parque]

17 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It's hard to lift yourself up with a knee on your neck. Literally and metaphorically. 

You can believe that if you'd like.

I believe the knee on their neck is the upbringing they have within their family structure. 

None of the endless amounts of social programs we have is going to move that knee. 

[Butter Parque]

11 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It would help if you would realize that the price of not getting people out of poverty IS the price all of the things that you listed.  You are using this bootstraps mentality for people who don't have boots.

Again, I pay for countless social programs so that those in poverty have food, shelter, medical care, etc.

I pay for the extra police needed to patrol their dangerous neighborhoods. 

I pay for the creation of these charter schools so that they have access to an even better education than their current schools can afford them. 

There are endless amounts of scholarships made available specifically for African-Americans.

In my field, if they are the owner of their business, they are guaranteed a piece of the government contracts that go out for bid. 

You need to be specific on why they don't have boots after all of that.

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Butter Parque

[Butter Parque]

15 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is much better to say F those kids for not figuring out how to get past it.  I mean what is the worst that could happen?

No, it's not an overnight solution. You need today's generation to stick around and actually raise their children. 

I believe that would have an enormous effect on the lives of those children and their prospects over the next decades. 

Treating them like troglodytes, who have no hope and no purpose helps no one. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by Butter Parque