George Floyd Thread

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

You can believe that if you'd like.

I believe the knee on their neck is the upbringing they have within their family structure. 

None of the endless amounts of social programs we have is going to move that knee. 

It is absolutely family structure.  That family structure is a result of 400 years of discrimination and policies designed to make the black family a second class citizen in the United States.  Generations of wealth concentrated in one structure doesn't change overnight.  Neither do the repercussions of segregation and slavery.  People whose lives were stunted due to segregation are still raising families.  They still believe the system is stacked against them, and are teaching kids that education is worthless because the system was designed to make them fail.  Then they turn on TV and see George Floyd getting choked out by a cop.  They see that people with black names on resumes are less likely to get call backs than people with white names.  They see themselves as more likely to go to jail for the same crimes than white people are.  They see themselves pulled over and harassed more often than white people.  The see a rich person commit discrimination, tax fraud and defraud a charity, but get elected President.

You want to tell them their life experiences are invalid?  I can't anymore.

No poverty programs aren't going to push them into a higher social structure.  But neither is the bootstraps myth.

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

Again, I pay for countless social programs so that those in poverty have food, shelter, medical care, etc.

I pay for the extra police needed to patrol their dangerous neighborhoods. 

I pay for the creation of these charter schools so that they have access to an even better education than their current schools can afford them. 

There are endless amounts of scholarships made available specifically for African-Americans.

In my field, if they are the owner of their business, they are guaranteed a piece of the government contracts that go out for bid. 

You need to be specific on why they don't have boots after all of that.

 

Charter schools?  For poor black kids?  You don't know a lot about Charter schools do you.

[Texsox]

10 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

You can believe that if you'd like.

I believe the knee on their neck is the upbringing they have within their family structure. 

None of the endless amounts of social programs we have is going to move that knee. 

As long as people think in terms of us and them, it will continue to be inequitable. 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Butter Parque said:

No, it's not an overnight solution. You need today's generation to stick around and actually raise their children. 

I believe that would have an enormous effect on the lives of those children and their prospects over the next decades. 

No, people like you need to stop looking down on people and teach adults and kids that the really do have a way out AND ACTUALLY MEAN IT.  People raise their kids with no hope, because they have no hope.  That's what 400 years of boot on your neck does to you.

[Texsox]

5 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

Again, I pay for countless social programs so that those in poverty have food, shelter, medical care, etc.

I pay for the extra police needed to patrol their dangerous neighborhoods. 

I pay for the creation of these charter schools so that they have access to an even better education than their current schools can afford them. 

There are endless amounts of scholarships made available specifically for African-Americans.

In my field, if they are the owner of their business, they are guaranteed a piece of the government contracts that go out for bid. 

You need to be specific on why they don't have boots after all of that.

 

It's almost like you think they owe you something for all you pay for. 

[Butter Parque]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

It is absolutely family structure.  That family structure is a result of 400 years of discrimination and policies designed to make the black family a second class citizen in the United States.  Generations of wealth concentrated in one structure doesn't change overnight.  Neither do the repercussions of segregation and slavery.  People whose lives were stunted due to segregation are still raising families.  They still believe the system is stacked against them, and are teaching kids that education is worthless because the system was designed to make them fail.  Then they turn on TV and see George Floyd getting choked out by a cop.  They see that people with black names on resumes are less likely to get call backs than people with white names.  They see themselves as more likely to go to jail for the same crimes than white people are.  They see themselves pulled over and harassed more often than white people.  The see a rich person commit discrimination, tax fraud and defraud a charity, but get elected President.

You want to tell them their life experiences are invalid?  I can't anymore.

No poverty programs aren't going to push them into a higher social structure.  But neither is the bootstraps myth.

This is all very trite. 

Whether you're white or black, tell your kids that they have no chance for success and don't be shocked if they achieve nothing. 

If they want to teach their kids that there's a boogeyman out there to get them if they are attempt to succeed, then let me keep my tax dollars because they have no hope anyway. 

The idea that all blacks are being held down by this invisible force is just insane. I don't know, go to the office parks once in a while, there's plenty of African Americans out there earning a living. Most of them got an education. They pay taxes. I have doubts that any of them would resort to a level of lawlessness that includes burning down a building or stealing sneakers.  But I guess they snuck past the society that sought to oppress them. 

[SoxAce]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

 

 

Good. Now reopen Sandra Bland's case as well.

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

It's almost like you think they owe you something for all you pay for. 

I've seen that attitude displayed. It's really a shame. 

Also almost??? People with that attitude actually do think that people that take government assistance owe them. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Butter Parque]

7 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

No, people like you need to stop looking down on people and teach adults and kids that the really do have a way out AND ACTUALLY MEAN IT.  People raise their kids with no hope, because they have no hope.  That's what 400 years of boot on your neck does to you.

That's the ultimate irony.

You're making an argument that blacks have no hope, but I'm the one who's looking down on them?

Have a good day. The weather is nice over here.  

 

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

This is all very trite. 

Whether you're white or black, tell your kids that they have no chance for success and don't be shocked if they achieve nothing. 

If they want to teach their kids that there's a boogeyman out there to get them if they are attempt to succeed, then let me keep my tax dollars because they have no hope anyway. 

The idea that all blacks are being held down by this invisible force is just insane. I don't know, go to the office parks once in a while, there's plenty of African Americans out there earning a living. Most of them got an education. They pay taxes. I have doubts that any of them would resort to a level of lawlessness that includes burning down a building or stealing sneakers.  But I guess they snuck past the society that sought to oppress them. 

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the forces holding them down is what's insane. 

[Butter Parque]

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

As long as people think in terms of us and them, it will continue to be inequitable. 

So go help them. Do all you can. See if it moves the needle. 

The trillions spent in government programs haven't helped. Maybe billions in reparations will. 

[Butter Parque]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

The fact that you refuse to acknowledge the forces holding them down is what's insane. 

Yes, it's a mighty force. It's absent parents, little household discipline, very little emphasis on education.

I don't blame the kids. I blame the parents. 

[StrangeSox]

3 hours ago, Joshua Strong said:

A must read article by Ta-Neshi Coates of the Atlantic (he also just ended his run on Black Panther for Marvel). 
 

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

This article's a few years old, but the focus of it is early and mid-20th century housing and educational policy/funding. He focused on Chicago. 

Even if you don't come to the same ultimate conclusion as him, it's a thorough review of decades and really centuries of the prevention of accumulation of black wealth and the looting of whatever wealth the community obtains.

Quote

 

The lives of black Americans are better than they were half a century ago. The humiliation of whites only signs are gone. Rates of black poverty have decreased. Black teen-pregnancy rates are at record lows—and the gap between black and white teen-pregnancy rates has shrunk significantly. But such progress rests on a shaky foundation, and fault lines are everywhere. The income gap between black and white households is roughly the same today as it was in 1970. Patrick Sharkey, a sociologist at New York University, studied children born from 1955 through 1970 and found that 4 percent of whites and 62 percent of blacks across America had been raised in poor neighborhoods. A generation later, the same study showed, virtually nothing had changed. And whereas whites born into affluent neighborhoods tended to remain in affluent neighborhoods, blacks tended to fall out of them.

This is not surprising. Black families, regardless of income, are significantly less wealthy than white families. The Pew Research Center estimates that white households are worth roughly 20 times as much as black households, and that whereas only 15 percent of whites have zero or negative wealth, more than a third of blacks do. Effectively, the black family in America is working without a safety net. When financial calamity strikes—a medical emergency, divorce, job loss—the fall is precipitous.

And just as black families of all incomes remain handicapped by a lack of wealth, so too do they remain handicapped by their restricted choice of neighborhood. Black people with upper-middle-class incomes do not generally live in upper-middle-class neighborhoods. Sharkey’s research shows that black families making $100,000 typically live in the kinds of neighborhoods inhabited by white families making $30,000. “Blacks and whites inhabit such different neighborhoods,” Sharkey writes, “that it is not possible to compare the economic outcomes of black and white children.”

 

edit: there's an ancient filibuster thread on the article as well as others like his "The Ghetto is Public Policy" which iirc was a genesis for the much larger article you linked

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/the-ghetto-is-public-policy/275456/

 

 

edit: I had asked Prof. Sharkey for some more info back when the article came out:

 

Quote

 

 Me: Iwas hoping you might be able to elaborate a little bit or point me to the citation for the part about "black families making $100,000 typically live in the kinds of neighborhoods inhabited by white families making $30,000. “Blacks and whites inhabit such different neighborhoods,” Sharkey writes, “that it is not possible to compare the economic outcomes of black and white children.”"

 

Why does that remain true today? What is it that prevents the upper-middle class black family from moving into a typical $100,000 neighborhood and instead leaves them stuck in a $30k neighborhood? Any incite you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

Quote

 

Prof. Sharkey:

Thanks for your note. You might want to check out the paper that generated this statistic: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25032266/

 

Lots of factors lead to this: continuing discrimination; informal hostility toward blacks; remnants of housing policy from decades ago; continuing zoning policies that constrain the housing options of nonwhites; preferences among affluent members of all groups to not live w African Americans.

 

This article is probably the best analysis of why these discrepancies exist and are not explained by wealth and income: http://asr.sagepub.com/content/77/3/354.abstract

 

 

Edited June 4, 2020 by StrangeSox

[Butter Parque]

10 minutes ago, Texsox said:

It's almost like you think they owe you something for all you pay for. 

They owe themselves and their family a better life than they have. 

I've repeatedly stated how they can provide a better future for their kids.

 

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, Butter Parque said:

That's the ultimate irony.

You're making an argument that blacks have no hope, but I'm the one who's looking down on them?

Have a good day. The weather is nice over here.  

 

Yeah, I don't know why people are upset enough to riot and burn things.  It must be because I don't think they can do anything.  It can't be generations of social and economic policy designed to make them fail.

[StrangeSox]

1 minute ago, Butter Parque said:

Yes, it's a mighty force. It's absent parents, little household discipline, very little emphasis on education.

I don't blame the kids. I blame the parents. 

But you're arguing that as a society we abandon the children, outside of brutally policing them.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

This article's a few years old, but the focus of it is early and mid-20th century housing and educational policy/funding. He focused on Chicago. 

Even if you don't come to the same ultimate conclusion as him, it's a thorough review of decades and really centuries of the prevention of accumulation of black wealth and the looting of whatever wealth the community obtains.

 

And because of that they attend lesser funded schools...  I mean you can see this at every level of attainment.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Butter Parque said:

They owe themselves and their family a better life than they have. 

I've repeatedly stated how they can provide a better future for their kids.

 

Almost got a "those people" that time.

[Butter Parque]

1 minute ago, StrangeSox said:

But you're arguing that as a society we abandon the children, outside of brutally policing them.

Last post for today, as everyone is just reiterating everything they've already said.

I didn't say abandon. Like I said, there are more programs currently in place to help those in poverty than I can fit into this text box. At some point, you have to make the effort too. 

I don't think I ever mentioned "brutally policing" them. But, yes, there should be cops in those neighborhoods if you're interested in keeping blacks safe. 

[caulfield12]

6 hours ago, StrangeSox said:

 

https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Attorney-identifies-SF-resident-fatally-shot-by-15315301.php
 

This is a slightly more nuanced view of that situation.   He did admittedly have a hammer and was likely involved in the looting...at least according to this story.   That said, the second highly controversial killing of a Hispanic in SF.

[Butter Parque]

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Almost got a "those people" that time.

I'm not going to keep going with you.

You have your religion and you can stick to it. 

The idea that anything I said is racist is factually incorrect and despicable on your part.

 

[caulfield12]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

There are good cops and bad cops just like there are good and bad in every occupation. They key is weeding out the bad. One problem police have is the code of silence people take when they see crimes committed. They are too scared, and many times, if not most, rightfully so, about retribution. The same type of code of silence is present in police departments everywhere. They don't report misconduct. They don't even admit they have seen it when it is being investigated. If this code of silence can ever be broken, witnesses don't have to fear for their life to report what they have seen. Cops don't have to fear the living hell of reporting a fellow officer's wrongdoing,  everything will be much better.

One idea I have is teaming black officers with white officers.  Most of the racists are pretty cowardly. They won't show it, at least as much, in front of a black colleague. 

We’ve seen it play out over the last four years in our political system.  These are multi-millionaires, and almost universally have been afraid for their political futures...those who have spoken out, or not offered blind loyalty, like Flake, Sessions and Amash, crushed underfoot.

If some of the most powerful government officials in the most powerful nation on earth are cowed, imagine the pressure working as part of a public sector union...where the consequences for breaking the code of silence mean likely a lost pension, a career as a private security officer if fortunate or just as likely a struggling gig worker.  That same oppressive/intimidating force is what often prevents anyone from speaking out in the military as well.  Heck, even whistleblowers and Inspector Generals can’t survive for long in that type of environment.

 

[Balta1701]

On 6/3/2020 at 2:10 PM, Tony said:

To me the biggest problem here is these aren't already the procedures on the books. 

 

 This made me recall your post yesterday. 

[caulfield12]

The biggest sign of progress...something to actually be hopeful about...is that completely absent government intervention or seeming interest, those in the “middle of the road” are increasingly becoming involved, and staking positions.

Corporations are jumping on board, whether it's due to corporate social responsibility or enlightened self-interest.  The likes of Joe Burrow are taking a stand before playing a down in the NFL, and “kneeling as protest” is finally being forcefully separated from patriotism/flag/National Anthem/support for our troops.  Not for all, but MOST.  Enough to find a way together, to move forward with something approaching unity.

You even have foreign entities (in this case, Softbank, which is Japanese) leading the way.  What’s particularly fascinating is how closed off Japanese culture tends to be about outsiders/diversity/foreigners, but even they see the tremendous market potential of reinvesting their money in America.  https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/softbank-announces-100-million-fund-for-minority-owned-businesses.html

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/ben-jerry-blew-other-brands-153700609.html

 

RFK on the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. in April, 1968

My favorite poet was Aeschylus. He wrote: "In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God."

What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence or lawlessness; but love and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or they be black.

...

We can do well in this country. We will have difficult times; we've had difficult times in the past; we will have difficult times in the future. It is not the end of violence; it is not the end of lawlessness; it is not the end of disorder.

But the vast majority of white people and the vast majority of black people in this country want to live together, want to improve the quality of our life, and want justice for all human beings who abide in our land.

Let us dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world.

Let us dedicate ourselves to that, and say a prayer for our country and for our people.

Edited June 4, 2020 by caulfield12

[Boopa1219]