What would you have rather seen from this draft?

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

14 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

Not bad but I wonder if the sox could have gotten abel at 11 and kelley at 47.

Slot value at 11 was 4.5 and bonus pool was 7.7 so that would have left 3m for kelley if they got 3 100k guys.

Would that have been enough?

Cant really judge that.

We will have to see what Crochet and Abel come in yet.. But I would assume they could have.

[bmags]

30 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

One thing I've been pondering for the last day...with so many different guys signed for 5+ years or covering positions for 6+ with arbitration, how much do the White Sox need "Depth"? 

If the Royals came away from this draft with 4 2-3 WAR players, that's a really good draft for the Royals. If the White Sox came away with that, they basically will have to trade a bunch of those guys because either they're going to be stuck on the bench or in the bullpen, and teams don't give up all that much in trades for guys who could be good but not great big leaguers, even if they have years of control.

What the White sox need is top flight guys, guys who can come in and take a spot at the top of the rotation or be traded for a guy like that. So maybe, because they have so many players already under control, swinging for the fences on every pick they can make is an especially correct move for them?

Well, what if what they have is not good enough? Ask the cubs how quickly the cupboards go bare. Same with Red Sox.

Both had incredible cores and redundancy.

Now, they got the ring and that's all that matters. But what if we are just going to be playoff good - the depth will be crucial without elite payroll.

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

Well, what if what they have is not good enough? Ask the cubs how quickly the cupboards go bare. Same with Red Sox.

Both had incredible cores and redundancy.

Now, they got the ring and that's all that matters. But what if we are just going to be playoff good - the depth will be crucial without elite payroll.

That's just sports though. The drafts and player acquisition is designed so that the teams that are the best have a disadvantage. Especially in baseball where the draft is such a crapshoot dynasties are rare. Teams can be playoff good but it's tough to be in the WS year after year. You are correct with no salary cap, the elite payrolls have a better chance.

[TheFutureIsNear]

47 minutes ago, bmags said:

Well, what if what they have is not good enough? Ask the cubs how quickly the cupboards go bare. Same with Red Sox.

Both had incredible cores and redundancy.

Now, they got the ring and that's all that matters. But what if we are just going to be playoff good - the depth will be crucial without elite payroll.

I remember a lot of posts on this board like 2 years(?) ago saying we need to make a trade because we had too many good young pitchers. Fast forward 2 years...

Rodon is completely unreliable 

Fulmer is all but a lost cause

Hansen isn’t who we thought he was 

Dunning got hurt

And guys like Adams and Stephens just didn’t pan out

 

Obviously our MLB roster is a lot further along than it was at that time, but still way too many variables to start counting chickens

 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

55 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I remember a lot of posts on this board like 2 years(?) ago saying we need to make a trade because we had too many good young pitchers. Fast forward 2 years...

Rodon is completely unreliable 

Fulmer is all but a lost cause

Hansen isn’t who we thought he was 

Dunning got hurt

And guys like Adams and Stephens just didn’t pan out

 

Obviously our MLB roster is a lot further along than it was at that time, but still way too many variables to start counting chickens

 

I don't remember anyone saying we had too much pitching.. Pitching was always our weaker spot in the minors. I remember people wanting to trade OF though

Edited June 12, 2020 by Squirmin' for Yermin

[Bob Sacamano]

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I remember a lot of posts on this board like 2 years(?) ago saying we need to make a trade because we had too many good young pitchers. Fast forward 2 years...

Rodon is completely unreliable 

Fulmer is all but a lost cause

Hansen isn’t who we thought he was 

Dunning got hurt

And guys like Adams and Stephens just didn’t pan out

 

Obviously our MLB roster is a lot further along than it was at that time, but still way too many variables to start counting chickens

 

True. Definitely a lot of question marks in the rotation.

[Quin]

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I remember a lot of posts on this board like 2 years(?) ago saying we need to make a trade because we had too many good young pitchers. Fast forward 2 years...

Rodon is completely unreliable 

Fulmer is all but a lost cause

Hansen isn’t who we thought he was 

Dunning got hurt

And guys like Adams and Stephens just didn’t pan out

 

Obviously our MLB roster is a lot further along than it was at that time, but still way too many variables to start counting chickens

 

Alec Hansen is who we thought he was, unfortunately he briefly flirted with his ceiling before plummeting to his floor.

[HollywoodTim]

Y2Jimmy says the Sox staff think Crochet is a stud.  You have to trust your people and Fulmer aside, the Sox haven't shown me anything that says we can't trust them on pitching.  Given Crochet's upside it's a no-brainer to take him if that's what they think.

Kelley, same thing.  Given the upside, if he's their guy, that is great.

On paper this was an attempt to gain the kinds of talent that really don't become available to you in a trade unless you are dealing the centerpiece in a major blockbuster, and the kind of talent that you don't see in FA until they're at an age where you're half-scared to sign them and stuck looking at $15-20M per plus regardless. 

I always want to see this kind of strategy.  I wish they could have gotten at least 1 more player but I'm very happy overall.

[bmags]

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I remember a lot of posts on this board like 2 years(?) ago saying we need to make a trade because we had too many good young pitchers. Fast forward 2 years...

 

to be fair that was a single thread and literally everyone laughed at the person who made it (and every pitcher promptly got tommy john)

[HollywoodTim]

I think Theo made some moves with the Cubs (specifically the Gleyber deal) which he wouldn't have made under other circumstances, but did due to all the pressure on the Cubs to win the WS.  The next time around in that scenario, I don't think they make that move.

Also they really didn't have the kind of Sale/Q/Eaton/DRob+Kahnle package of talent to dump (and Abreu also which was never done) when the new regime took over, so I think the Cubs started with less and were under pressure to empty the cupboards a bit faster.  Overall I think they have done a great job obviously, I mean they won a WS and have been division champs mostly and legit contenders every year.  We are hoping to equal that and it's absurd to hope to better that.  We can't try to better it until we get at least 1 title first.

But anyway, in a game built around pitching that always favors pitching (provided Manfred is kept under control) you really can never have enough, because you can never have enough backup starter, back-end relievers, or trade chips.

[southsider2k5]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

Well, what if what they have is not good enough? Ask the cubs how quickly the cupboards go bare. Same with Red Sox.

Both had incredible cores and redundancy.

Now, they got the ring and that's all that matters. But what if we are just going to be playoff good - the depth will be crucial without elite payroll.

And we thank them for that.  They are the bessssssssssssssssssss

[southsider2k5]

33 minutes ago, HollywoodTim said:

Y2Jimmy says the Sox staff think Crochet is a stud.  You have to trust your people and Fulmer aside, the Sox haven't shown me anything that says we can't trust them on pitching.  Given Crochet's upside it's a no-brainer to take him if that's what they think.

Kelley, same thing.  Given the upside, if he's their guy, that is great.

On paper this was an attempt to gain the kinds of talent that really don't become available to you in a trade unless you are dealing the centerpiece in a major blockbuster, and the kind of talent that you don't see in FA until they're at an age where you're half-scared to sign them and stuck looking at $15-20M per plus regardless. 

I always want to see this kind of strategy.  I wish they could have gotten at least 1 more player but I'm very happy overall.

Unfortunately someone will come along and list a couple of names as a disqualifier, but as a reminder, just because you are good at something, doesn't mean that you reach everyone.

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, HollywoodTim said:

I think Theo made some moves with the Cubs (specifically the Gleyber deal) which he wouldn't have made under other circumstances, but did due to all the pressure on the Cubs to win the WS.  The next time around in that scenario, I don't think they make that move.

Also they really didn't have the kind of Sale/Q/Eaton/DRob+Kahnle package of talent to dump (and Abreu also which was never done) when the new regime took over, so I think the Cubs started with less and were under pressure to empty the cupboards a bit faster.  Overall I think they have done a great job obviously, I mean they won a WS and have been division champs mostly and legit contenders every year.  We are hoping to equal that and it's absurd to hope to better that.  We can't try to better it until we get at least 1 title first.

But anyway, in a game built around pitching that always favors pitching (provided Manfred is kept under control) you really can never have enough, because you can never have enough backup starter, back-end relievers, or trade chips.

They also still had the Latin American advantages when they started their rebuilds and they spent like crazy to take advantage of it.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

In a year with only 5 rounds, punting a few picks to get 2 of the best ranked is fine.

Yes it's better than fine . It's mighty fine !  2 high upside pitchers, one college, one High School , one lefty, one righty . Both considered among the best

Meyer , Lacy, Hancock, Detmers, Abel, Crochet ,Kelley  those might be the best pitchers to be drafted. 7 names and we got 2 of them. Sure some will fail and others not listed here will step up, but going into the draft those 7 stood out most. Kelley should eventually pitch in the halfway to St. Patrick's Day game.

[tray]

Crochet pitching videos make me think the Sox made the right call.   I think he is from Mississippi so I hope he adjusts well to Chicago.

 

 

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

J.J. Cooper and Ben Badler broke down all the 1st rounders on the BA podcast. When they got to Crochet, he was labeled as a guy that could end up being the arm everyone ends wondering how he lasted until the 11th pick? This was before the Kelley pick too, so they were strictly going off Day 1 results. 

[zisk]

wouldn't change a thing. Pitching depth is the most important thing to have for development and trades.

[Dominikk85]

I think the focus on high upside pitchers was right. Of course you can never have enough depth but it is easier to buy a 2 war 4 starter than to buy a 4 war star pitcher.

Imo the sox have reasonable depth at sp (could always be better of course) but they lack that second ace.

When you look at the teams winning the last decade they often had more than one ace (giants had Lincecum, Cain and later bumgarner, astros had verlander and Cole, dodgers have Kershaw and buehler, Nats had all those aces...).

There are also other examples like KC or Boston but having two aces is a big advantage and if giolito and one of crochet and kelley could form a 4+ war 1-2 punch that is a big advantage in the post season and takes load of the pen too.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

I absolutely love Crochet but I'm not nearly as high on Kelley as so many others are.  Cole Wilcox was taken in the 3rd round.  I would have much rather have him over Kelley.  They also could have had two high upside HS pitchers like Ben Hernandez, Kyle Harrison or Carter Baumler for what they paid Kelley.  We'll see how it works out but like I said this draft was so deep with high upside players I would have liked them get as many as possible.  

[Balta1701]

4 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

I think the focus on high upside pitchers was right. Of course you can never have enough depth but it is easier to buy a 2 war 4 starter than to buy a 4 war star pitcher.

Imo the sox have reasonable depth at sp (could always be better of course) but they lack that second ace.

When you look at the teams winning the last decade they often had more than one ace (giants had Lincecum, Cain and later bumgarner, astros had verlander and Cole, dodgers have Kershaw and buehler, Nats had all those aces...).

There are also other examples like KC or Boston but having two aces is a big advantage and if giolito and one of crochet and kelley could form a 4+ war 1-2 punch that is a big advantage in the post season and takes load of the pen too.

Assuming Giolito remains an all star caliber pitcher for the next 4 years, neither of these guys are likely to pitch alongside him for very long as an ace. If Giolito is this good for 4 more years, he's going to wind up in Los Angeles or Boston or NY with a $250-$300 million deal after 2023. 

With as screwed up as this year is it's hard to pencil in everything, but Kelly is only 18, if he spent the next 2 years in the minors, he'd make his big league debut at age 21 and pitch with Gio for 1 year or less. Crochet might move faster and could pitch with him for a year or more if he developed faster, but he's also still somewhat raw and yeah, this year is still a mess so who knows?

If you want your second ace while Giolito is still in this organization, it's Kopech, Cease, or someone else who is already here breaking out (Stiever, Dunning, Lopez?). This round of draft picks slots in to replace guys like Gioilito and Keuchel when they leave in a couple years.

[Dominikk85]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

Assuming Giolito remains an all star caliber pitcher for the next 4 years, neither of these guys are likely to pitch alongside him for very long as an ace. If Giolito is this good for 4 more years, he's going to wind up in Los Angeles or Boston or NY with a $250-$300 million deal after 2023. 

With as screwed up as this year is it's hard to pencil in everything, but Kelly is only 18, if he spent the next 2 years in the minors, he'd make his big league debut at age 21 and pitch with Gio for 1 year or less. Crochet might move faster and could pitch with him for a year or more if he developed faster, but he's also still somewhat raw and yeah, this year is still a mess so who knows?

If you want your second ace while Giolito is still in this organization, it's Kopech, Cease, or someone else who is already here breaking out (Stiever, Dunning, Lopez?). This round of draft picks slots in to replace guys like Gioilito and Keuchel when they leave in a couple years.

I think now would be a good time giving him an extension. Offer him an extension. Offer him 6 years at 70m with a 20mil team option for 2027 that automatically kicks in when he has met certain thresholds indicating health and performance.

This sounds like a bad deal for him but he also has not earned much and only one good year already and he could get injured any time. That is a risk for the sox too but not crippling if it goes wrong (like 10m per year) and could give them a controlled ace for the entire window. 

[turnin' two]

On 6/12/2020 at 1:33 PM, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

We will have to see what Crochet and Abel come in yet.. But I would assume they could have.

I was on the Able train, but I think I like this better.  It spreads the risk a little at least.  Two HS pitchers carries more risk than the HS/College combo (though always plenty of risk).  Both still have high ceilings and TOR stuff.  And if we just pretend everything works out, this spreads out their timetables a little bit as well.  I'd have to guess Crochet is at least 2 years ahead of Kelley (not an expert, just a guess), so having them separated a little may be a good thing.

[Vulture]

On 6/12/2020 at 2:08 PM, southsider2k5 said:

$20k per player cap this year.

Talk about exploiting a situation to abuse the worker. Owners ought to be ashamed of themselves. Manfred has got to go, this guy is ruining baseball.

[Jack Parkman]

Don't get attached to any of these pitchers, as they all could be traded for pieces to help the MLB team sometime in the next few years.

[Dominikk85]

2 hours ago, Vulture said:

Talk about exploiting a situation to abuse the worker. Owners ought to be ashamed of themselves. Manfred has got to go, this guy is ruining baseball.

I think Manfred is pretty much a puppet of the owners.