Service Time in 2020

[ChiSox59]

Has it been clarified how exactly service time is going to work in 2020?

I know that the 60 game season is considered a full year of service time.  However - take Madrigal for example.  He needed to spend~3 weeks in the minors for the Sox to get that extra year of control with a full 162 game season.  How long would he need to stay now that its 60 games?  Is it pro-rated on a 60/162 (37% basis), so basically he'd only need to spent like 10 days in the minors in that case?  

This is also very important for Kopech.  He needed to be optioned and be in the minors until ~mid June for the Sox to get a year of service back.  So now they'd have to get extra cute with him to recoup a year.  I doubt we see them do that.  

To be clear, and I was one of the biggest proponents of getting that extra year for Madrigal, and the year back on Kopech, but I would just start them both on the MLB roster at this point.  But I am curious how this is going work. 

This will obviously affect other guys that may spent a portion but not all of the season in the big leagues (Collins, Burdi, Mercedes, Mendick, etc.).  Obviously its also a bit of a dagger to the org for the pre-arb guys and non-extended guys like Cease, Giolito, and Lopez who are extremely likely to spend the whole year in the bigs, but the club will lose a full year of service.  But I guess every team has that problem, and Sox may be less affected than most since they've extended a lot of their young elite talent.  

I did read that those on the taxi-squads will NOT accrue MLB service time, if anyone is wondering about that.  

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

If guys like Madrigal and Kopech only have to be in the “minors” for 10 days to get the extra year of control, then I’d absolutely keep them down for a bit. The Sox can survive with Leury at 2nd base for a week and a half and Kopech might not be needed right away.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

If guys like Madrigal and Kopech only have to be in the “minors” for 10 days to get the extra year of control, then I’d absolutely keep them down for a bit. The Sox can survive with Leury at 2nd base for a week and a half and Kopech might not be needed right away.

I think Kopech would need to spent like 20-25 games not on the MLB roster, so his call is a little tougher than Madrigal if its only like 10 games.  But with 7 legit starting pitchers on the roster and the fact he's only going every 5 days and those may even be abbreviated starts, it still may be worth it.  

[Y2Jimmy0]

23 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Has it been clarified how exactly service time is going to work in 2020?

I know that the 60 game season is considered a full year of service time.  However - take Madrigal for example.  He needed to spend~3 weeks in the minors for the Sox to get that extra year of control with a full 162 game season.  How long would he need to stay now that its 60 games?  Is it pro-rated on a 60/162 (37% basis), so basically he'd only need to spent like 10 days in the minors in that case?  

This is also very important for Kopech.  He needed to be optioned and be in the minors until ~mid June for the Sox to get a year of service back.  So now they'd have to get extra cute with him to recoup a year.  I doubt we see them do that.  

To be clear, and I was one of the biggest proponents of getting that extra year for Madrigal, and the year back on Kopech, but I would just start them both on the MLB roster at this point.  But I am curious how this is going work. 

This will obviously affect other guys that may spent a portion but not all of the season in the big leagues (Collins, Burdi, Mercedes, Mendick, etc.).  Obviously its also a bit of a dagger to the org for the pre-arb guys and non-extended guys like Cease, Giolito, and Lopez who are extremely likely to spend the whole year in the bigs, but the club will lose a full year of service.  But I guess every team has that problem, and Sox may be less affected than most since they've extended a lot of their young elite talent.  

I did read that those on the taxi-squads will NOT accrue MLB service time, if anyone is wondering about that.  

Here's how I understand it: if a guy is on active roster for 60 games, it's a year of service. If Madrigal is on the taxi squad to start and then comes up and plays in 40 games, he gets .66 of a year of service for example. Same deal for Kopech. He should start with the club though. 

[southsider2k5]

With the margin for error being 60/162 of a normal season, they really can't afford to mess around with the roster this year.  Put your top team on the field and let it roll.  For a team that is probably just outside of playoff range in a normal season, also take advantage of the fluke that with one long streak, you can actually play yourself into a playoff race, or out of it if it is a bad one.  There isn't time to cover up for a bad month or two week stretch.

[Jose Abreu]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

With the margin for error being 60/162 of a normal season, they really can't afford to mess around with the roster this year.  Put your top team on the field and let it roll.  For a team that is probably just outside of playoff range in a normal season, also take advantage of the fluke that with one long streak, you can actually play yourself into a playoff race, or out of it if it is a bad one.  There isn't time to cover up for a bad month or two week stretch.

Yeah, the common argument that keeping a player in the minors for 14/162 games might "cost you a win" usually doesn't work since the player in question is not worth an extra ~12 (162/14) wins over the vet starting at his position. However, in a 60 game season, regardless of how good or bad the rookie is compared to the vet, I don't see why you'd take the risk.  

[ChiSox59]

13 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

With the margin for error being 60/162 of a normal season, they really can't afford to mess around with the roster this year.  Put your top team on the field and let it roll.  For a team that is probably just outside of playoff range in a normal season, also take advantage of the fluke that with one long streak, you can actually play yourself into a playoff race, or out of it if it is a bad one.  There isn't time to cover up for a bad month or two week stretch.

Oh I agree, now isn't really the time to mess around, and I said as much in my OP. 

Still curious how the math works though.  Glad that @Y2Jimmy0 says it will be straight pro-rata.  

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

38 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I think Kopech would need to spent like 20-25 games not on the MLB roster, so his call is a little tougher than Madrigal if its only like 10 games.  But with 7 legit starting pitchers on the roster and the fact he's only going every 5 days and those may even be abbreviated starts, it still may be worth it.  

Still talking only 4-5 starts.. Gimme that year IF that's indeed how it works

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

26 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Here's how I understand it: if a guy is on active roster for 60 games, it's a year of service. If Madrigal is on the taxi squad to start and then comes up and plays in 40 games, he gets .66 of a year of service for example. Same deal for Kopech. He should start with the club though. 

But what does .66 year of service even mean?  It's not like Madrigal will become a FA in July of 2025 or whatever year that'll be.

[ron883]

One thing I'm particularly interested in is how this shortened season will affect pitchers in the following year. How will pitching 1/3 of the season impact them all next year? They will have pitched significantly less innings than normal. Will they continue to pitch after the season ends to maintain the workload on their arms? 

[Y2Jimmy0]

2 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

But what does .66 year of service even mean?  It's not like Madrigal will become a FA in July of 2025 or whatever year that'll be.

He needs 6 years of major league service to become a free agent. It's effectively a way to manipulate service team. 

.66 in 2020

Full seasons in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025 would leave him with 5.66 years of service. Sox would effectively get a 7th year of service in 2026. 

[ChiSox59]

13 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

But what does .66 year of service even mean?  It's not like Madrigal will become a FA in July of 2025 or whatever year that'll be.

A full year of service time is like ~150 games or so in a typical season (edit: exact calculation is 172 of 187 days.  So 91.9%, or 149 games on the dot).  So one usually needs to spend 90%+ of the season the MLB roster to get a full year of service.  So it really shouldn't be that hard for the Sox to get an extra year out of Madrigal if the calculation is truly pro-rata as Jimmy suggests.  Based on my math, it may be as few as 5 games.  

I think this season is so short and the Sox already are fringy as is, its a tough call on whether its worth it or not.  Having thought more about it today, if its truly only 5-7 games for Madrigal, I'd just start the year with Leury at 2B.  I don't think the difference between those two in Madrigal's first handful of MLB games will be a significant drop-off, if even a dropoff at all.  

Edited June 25, 2020 by ChiSox59

[SoCalChiSox]

It's gonna be really hard to keep Kopech on the taxi squad for a few weeks given he is this far out from the injury but maybe they can say he still hasn't gotten in any minor league games in yet which was the plan before this all happened so maybe he can just throw some taxi squad games instead. 

If it's prorated time

They could easily have Madrigal play like a week on the taxi squad and that would be enough to qualify for what otherwise be like 3 weeks in a regular 162 game year. Plus he was somewhat struggling in ST beforehand as it was. Kopech it would require a little more twisting themselves into a pretzel to justify but it could be done particularly given we have a ton of "experienced major league" pitchers already esp with Rodon coming back. 

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

57 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

He needs 6 years of major league service to become a free agent. It's effectively a way to manipulate service team. 

.66 in 2020

Full seasons in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025 would leave him with 5.66 years of service. Sox would effectively get a 7th year of service in 2026. 

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Jack Parkman]

If Rodon is healthy, the Sox are deep enough in SP to be without Kopech for 16 games. 

I'm not a fan of this practice but it is what it is. 

Kopech got a free year from being injured. If the Sox wouldn't have called him up in 2018 he'd have no service time. 

IIRC he was on the roster for 45 days in 2018. That is 1/4 of the season(180 days in normal years) which is what they'd have to make up to mess with it. 

 

Count on Madrigal missing a week and Kopech missing 2.5 weeks. 

Edited June 25, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

54 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If Rodon is healthy, the Sox are deep enough in SP to be without Kopech for 16 games. 

I'm not a fan of this practice but it is what it is. 

Kopech got a free year from being injured. If the Sox wouldn't have called him up in 2018 he'd have no service time. 

IIRC he was on the roster for 45 days in 2018. That is 1/4 of the season(180 days in normal years) which is what they'd have to make up to mess with it. 

 

Count on Madrigal missing a week and Kopech missing 2.5 weeks. 

Madrigal yes, Kopech no.

[Vulture]

Madrigal didn't appear close to mlb ready in spring training, not sure how he would be now after four months off.

[Bob Sacamano]

5 hours ago, Vulture said:

Madrigal didn't appear close to mlb ready in spring training, not sure how he would be now after four months off.

Agreed. A lot of posters here at the time were unimpressed with his spring training.

[pcq]

18 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

A full year of service time is like ~150 games or so in a typical season (edit: exact calculation is 172 of 187 days.  So 91.9%, or 149 games on the dot).  So one usually needs to spend 90%+ of the season the MLB roster to get a full year of service.  So it really shouldn't be that hard for the Sox to get an extra year out of Madrigal if the calculation is truly pro-rata as Jimmy suggests.  Based on my math, it may be as few as 5 games.  

I think this season is so short and the Sox already are fringy as is, its a tough call on whether its worth it or not.  Having thought more about it today, if its truly only 5-7 games for Madrigal, I'd just start the year with Leury at 2B.  I don't think the difference between those two in Madrigal's first handful of MLB games will be a significant drop-off, if even a dropoff at all.  

Reminds himself that fringy is an upgrade for the AL's worst team of the decade. 

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, pcq said:

Reminds himself that fringy is an upgrade for the AL's worst team of the decade. 

This team, quite obviously, is no longer the team it was the majority of the past decade.

 One of the best catchers in the league. All Star level players at 3B and 1B. Two of the best young players in the league in LF and CF (both top 5 prospects in the game within last 15 months).  A top 30 type prospect at 2B.  The guy who just won the AL batting title at SS.  A pro's pro at DH. Only huge question mark is RF lineup wise.

The pitching is a definite question mark, but plenty of talent there for it to be at least league average.  

I don't think calling the White Sox a fringy playoff team is overly optimistic in a normal season at all.  The shortened season could hurt them a bit as the younger guys won't have much time to adapt, but let's play ball.   

[pcq]

The offense is improved and they have a nice selection of SP's. While the clock is ticking some of the pitchers are saving on wear and tear while others are recovering and ready to pitch.