southsider2k5 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 11 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: He did say he was learning defensive drills from abreu which could explain his struggles. Those who cannnot do, teach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 59 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said: Josh hamilton comp? In what way? I'm a bit sceptical about him. He has the best eye in the organization and has some pop but the swings on misses on fastballs that are fat over the plate are worrying. It is ok to occasionally miss a slider or a chest high FB but collins is missing fastballs that are essentially down the pipe and that is a bad sign. If he can catch I'm fine with .220 with 100 walks and 25 Homers (about a 220/350/420 line) but at DH or 1b that is not that great. Why would you have such a pessimistic view on Zack Collins hitting? Granted his first sixty at bats in the majors were putrid with a .420 OPS...but his last forty at bats he had an .950 OPS...in Spring training this year he had a 1.200 OPS, at AAA last year he had a .950 OPS, in three years in College at Miami he had a 1.000+ OPS. You know who else missed fastballs? Babe Ruth. Come on...he's only 24 and there are LOTS of data points suggesting he could be an elite hitter. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted July 17, 2020 Author Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Safe to say that Cease has earned at least a couple of starts and is ahead of Rodon at this point. Rodon still getting back on track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 5 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Why would you have such a pessimistic view on Zack Collins hitting? Granted his first sixty at bats in the majors were putrid with a .420 OPS...but his last forty at bats he had an .950 OPS...in Spring training this year he had a 1.200 OPS, at AAA last year he had a .950 OPS, in three years in College at Miami he had a 1.000+ OPS. You know who else missed fastballs? Babe Ruth. Come on...he's only 24 and there are LOTS of data points suggesting he could be an elite hitter. We all know there are factions here who like or dislike Collins, Madrigal, Lopez and Mazara . Those are probably the top 4 as far as many not thinking they will ever be any good. I believe in all 4. I don't like playing scout and judging on past performance as an indicator of future success for young players. Of course not all will ever reach their potential but at least I feel good about being in their corner. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 lol i forgot mazara was on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 24 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: We all know there are factions here who like or dislike Collins, Madrigal, Lopez and Mazara . Those are probably the top 4 as far as many not thinking they will ever be any good. I believe in all 4. I don't like playing scout and judging on past performance as an indicator of future success for young players. Of course not all will ever reach their potential but at least I feel good about being in their corner. Of those 4: Like: Mazara I used to be in the Collins sucks camp, but he kinda put me in the wait and see category. I don't believe that much in Lopez either, but I'm ok waiting and seeing with him too. Madrigal is so unique as a player that I have no idea what to think of him. He could be a generational hitter, he could be ok, or anything in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 44 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: We all know there are factions here who like or dislike Collins, Madrigal, Lopez and Mazara . Those are probably the top 4 as far as many not thinking they will ever be any good. I believe in all 4. I don't like playing scout and judging on past performance as an indicator of future success for young players. Of course not all will ever reach their potential but at least I feel good about being in their corner. I'm pretty sure about 14 months ago you would have had Giolito and Moncada on the top of the list of people saying they suck and will never amount to anything. I suppose its part of sports to jump into the debate and feel smart if the guy doesn't pan out. I just prefer the optimist route...and I feel like if Collins was a prospect for the White Sox...all else equal...in say 2004...we would have been SOOO excited about him. But because we have so much to be excited about Zack has become the poster boy for "can't hit, can't field, he'll never make it". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said: Of those 4: Like: Mazara I used to be in the Collins sucks camp, but he kinda put me in the wait and see category. I don't believe that much in Lopez either, but I'm ok waiting and seeing with him too. Madrigal is so unique as a player that I have no idea what to think of him. He could be a generational hitter, he could be ok, or anything in between. Yeah madrigal is hard to predict. He could be a Tony gwynn or ichiro type of hitter who bats 350 or he could be Jose Iglesias or dee Gordon (which wouldn't be terrible either but mor what you are looking for). He could also grow into a bit more power and be a Dustin Pedroia type hitting like 300 with 12-15 homers. I think he already has gained some strength and hits the ball a bit harder but obviously still not a big power guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPickle Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 Madrigal likely won't have the position versatility of either of these guys, but if he ended up being Placido Polanco or peak Marco Scutaro that would be a great outcome. That's not a sexy outcome, but he wasn't a sexy pick either. If he ends up being the fifth best position player on the team in two or three years then the Sox are in good shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, TomPickle said: Madrigal likely won't have the position versatility of either of these guys, but if he ended up being Placido Polanco or peak Marco Scutaro that would be a great outcome. That's not a sexy outcome, but he wasn't a sexy pick either. If he ends up being the fifth best position player on the team in two or three years then the Sox are in good shape. If he’s better than two of Robert, Eloy, Moncada, Anderson, Vaughn, or Grandal we’ll have the best group of position players in the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, TomPickle said: Madrigal likely won't have the position versatility of either of these guys, but if he ended up being Placido Polanco or peak Marco Scutaro that would be a great outcome. That's not a sexy outcome, but he wasn't a sexy pick either. If he ends up being the fifth best position player on the team in two or three years then the Sox are in good shape. Polanco had the ability to hit 15+ HR if he went on a binge. If Madrigal goes on one he might get to double digits. Edited July 18, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said: I'm pretty sure about 14 months ago you would have had Giolito and Moncada on the top of the list of people saying they suck and will never amount to anything. I suppose its part of sports to jump into the debate and feel smart if the guy doesn't pan out. I just prefer the optimist route...and I feel like if Collins was a prospect for the White Sox...all else equal...in say 2004...we would have been SOOO excited about him. But because we have so much to be excited about Zack has become the poster boy for "can't hit, can't field, he'll never make it". I'm right with you on the optimistic route.When I feel like arguing I know I've stuck up for Collins and Mazara very strongly. I've seen some smart hitting from Madrigal and Mazara in the scrimmages, I know spring training performance should be taken with a grain of salt but Collins has quietly shown tremendous power and a good eye for the strike zone. It's never a bad thing when a guy can be .100 higher in his OBP than his BA. We are all guilty of seeing good and bad spring performances and letting them reinforce how we feel about certain players despite what we know about SSS. Like I keep waiting for Eloy to show me a little more in summer camp while singing the praises of Lambert and Dunning. But yet when I post i only show my optimism and quietly wait for Mt. Eloy (that awful name given by Benetti ) to erupt . Edited July 18, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPickle Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said: If he’s better than two of Robert, Eloy, Moncada, Anderson, Vaughn, or Grandal we’ll have the best group of position players in the league. In two years Grandal will be 34 and Anderson might still be a below average defensive SS with a sub 5% BB rate. Vaughn at 1B is also far from a sure thing to be putting up 3+ WAR seasons. 1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said: Polanco had the ability to hit 15+ HR if he went on a binge. If Madrigal goes on one he might get to double digits. Polanco averaged 6.5 HRs a year over a 16 year career so this seems like a stretch especially since he topped 15 HRs exactly once in his career. I also called that a great outcome and not some floor for performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, TomPickle said: In two years Grandal will be 34 and Anderson might still be a below average defensive SS with a sub 5% BB rate. Vaughn at 1B is also far from a sure thing to be putting up 3+ WAR seasons. Polanco averaged 6.5 HRs a year over a 16 year career so this seems like a stretch especially since he topped 15 HRs exactly once in his career. I also called that a great outcome and not some floor for performance. He had 14 and 17 in 2003-04 with the Phillies. Citizens Bank is a notorious launching pad so it might have been inflated. GRF is no longer playing as a hitter's park and is closer to neutral these days. He hit 10 in with Detroit once as well. But yeah, if Madrigal is Polanco that's a great outcome. Not sure he's ever going to hit double digits in HRs though. Edited July 18, 2020 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominikk85 Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 I think madrigal will hit like 12-15 hr one or two seasons. Not every year of course but even ichiro had a 15 hr year although he averaged 6-9 in his good years. Madrigal could be like that too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 18, 2020 Share Posted July 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Dominikk85 said: I think madrigal will hit like 12-15 hr one or two seasons. Not every year of course but even ichiro had a 15 hr year although he averaged 6-9 in his good years. Madrigal could be like that too. The difference I that Ichiro had tremendous power. He just choose to go for batting title and hits and sacrificed his power. Madrigal doesnt have the power capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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