Chisoxfn Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 14 minutes ago, Tony said: You're somehow living in some reality where injuries don't occur, and the 26 man-roster you start the season with are the only 26 guys that get ML experience. Edwin Encarnacion isn't blocking anyone. He's on a one year deal. People would be outraged if team went into the season with Zack Collins as their primary DH, and rightfully so. As others have mentioned, Vaughn was never really in the plans for 2020, he's irrelevant to the 2020 discussion. Keuchel is more of a question mark, but everyone was unanimous that they needed to bring in an established starter during the offseason. The fans, and clearly the front office were in agreement on that. It also seems like Keuchel was probably their back up plan to Wheeler, but maybe it works out for the best 3-4 years down the line. We don't know. The point is, not every player, and certainly not guys like Collins and Dunning, deserve to have roster spots carved out for them. They aren't anywhere near the class of guys like Moncada, Eloy and Robert. You make the most of your opportunity when the time comes. What they do with it is up to them. The beauty is - this is exactly what good teams look like, they actually have depth. They will have guys who surprise (good and bad), guys who get injured and in the case of this team, right now you have Madrigal, Vaughn, Collins all guys who could step up and potentially contribute in a big way. And with COVID, depth is even more important because it is less than if, but when. Also really nice having someone like Leury who can play almost anywhere on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Tony said: You're somehow living in some reality where injuries don't occur, and the 26 man-roster you start the season with are the only 26 guys that get ML experience. Edwin Encarnacion isn't blocking anyone. He's on a one year deal. People would be outraged if team went into the season with Zack Collins as their primary DH, and rightfully so. As others have mentioned, Vaughn was never really in the plans for 2020, he's irrelevant to the 2020 discussion. Keuchel is more of a question mark, but everyone was unanimous that they needed to bring in an established starter during the offseason. The fans, and clearly the front office were in agreement on that. It also seems like Keuchel was probably their back up plan to Wheeler, but maybe it works out for the best 3-4 years down the line. We don't know. The point is, not every player, and certainly not guys like Collins and Dunning, deserve to have roster spots carved out for them. They aren't anywhere near the class of guys like Moncada, Eloy and Robert. You make the most of your opportunity when the time comes. What they do with it is up to them. The Sox had plenty of DH options without EE. McCann, Collins, Mercedes, if there was a full season Vaughn could have forced the issue....Even Eloy was an option there. Sure, injuries occur....they had the depth to cover for them without Keuchel and EE. Edited July 20, 2020 by Jack Parkman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Of course you need SP depth and with Kopech gone the guys like Dunning will get a chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 McCann, Collins and Mercedes don’t represent quality MLB hitters to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said: I'm fine with most of the moves they made this year. Keuchel scares me(think 2019 Jon Lester) and EE just seemed unnecessary. If all they would have done was add Grandal, Mazara and Gio Gonzalez and signed Moncada/Robert to long term deals I'd have been fine with that. Is it cheap? Yeah I still think Keuchel has a chance to backfire horribly on them. What's the point of having all of these younger guys if they're not going to see what they have. They need to know what they have in guys like Collins and Dunning. I'd have been fine if they used this year to find out what they had and then gone on a spending binge this winter. Keuchal was the only pitcher I cared if they signed. He is the one I would trust to give the Sox quality innings and not be cost prohibitive. Dunning hasn't even pitched in AAA yet. He isn't in the they have to see what he has category. He probably will this year due to the lack of days off and no kopech but it might be pushing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 59 minutes ago, Tony said: You're somehow living in some reality where injuries don't occur, and the 26 man-roster you start the season with are the only 26 guys that get ML experience. Edwin Encarnacion isn't blocking anyone. He's on a one year deal. People would be outraged if team went into the season with Zack Collins as their primary DH, and rightfully so. As others have mentioned, Vaughn was never really in the plans for 2020, he's irrelevant to the 2020 discussion. Keuchel is more of a question mark, but everyone was unanimous that they needed to bring in an established starter during the offseason. The fans, and clearly the front office were in agreement on that. It also seems like Keuchel was probably their back up plan to Wheeler, but maybe it works out for the best 3-4 years down the line. We don't know. The point is, not every player, and certainly not guys like Collins and Dunning, deserve to have roster spots carved out for them. They aren't anywhere near the class of guys like Moncada, Eloy and Robert. You make the most of your opportunity when the time comes. What they do with it is up to them. The roster part is a good point. Mediocre teams can have good starters, but good teams have depth behind those starters. If guys like Collins can continue to advance, they will get a chance. With guys like Abreu and EE, you can typically count on a DL stay in a 162 game season. In a season where no one has worked out like normal, you might actually see more injuries, not to mention that Covid is also going to create completely unexpected opportunities for players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 41 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: The Sox had plenty of DH options without EE. McCann, Collins, Mercedes, if there was a full season Vaughn could have forced the issue....Even Eloy was an option there. Sure, injuries occur....they had the depth to cover for them without Keuchel and EE. A "DH option" isn't the same as what EE has done over his career. His lowest OPS in the last 8 seasons is .875. Collins hasn't come within 50 points of that in the minors. They are not equal options. EE also offers protection to young hitters like Robert and Eloy, as well as to Abreu. The players you listed and EE are not equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: A "DH option" isn't the same as what EE has done over his career. His lowest OPS in the last 8 seasons is .875. Collins hasn't come within 50 points of that in the minors. They are not equal options. EE also offers protection to young hitters like Robert and Eloy, as well as to Abreu. The players you listed and EE are not equal. EE is 37...coming off a year where he played 10 games the last two months of the regular season and was nearly worthless in the playoffs. It is just untrue that Collins hasn't come within 50 points of .875 OPS in the minors unless you mean last year in AAA where his .951 OPS was more than 50 points above .875...he was a top ten draft pick and had an OPS above 1.000 in his three years at Miami. I think it's fair to say at their peak career value Collins might never be the hitter that EE was. But we are talking about 20202 with an old man coming off a broken wrist versus a 25 year old player with maybe the best walk rate in the minors, that hit as well as Robert in AAA and and in his last two weeks of the 2019 put up a .960 OPS in the majors. There is just no way you can say with confidence that 2020EE>2020ZC. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 EE has looked phenomenal from what I have seen. I was scared he would hit a wall due to age, but he has looked awesome. He very well could be the best hitter on the team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said: EE is 37...coming off a year where he played 10 games the last two months of the regular season and was nearly worthless in the playoffs. It is just untrue that Collins hasn't come within 50 points of .875 OPS in the minors unless you mean last year in AAA where his .951 OPS was more than 50 points above .875...he was a top ten draft pick and had an OPS above 1.000 in his three years at Miami. I think it's fair to say at their peak career value Collins might never be the hitter that EE was. But we are talking about 20202 with an old man coming off a broken wrist versus a 25 year old player with maybe the best walk rate in the minors, that hit as well as Robert in AAA and and in his last two weeks of the 2019 put up a .960 OPS in the majors. There is just no way you can say with confidence that 2020EE>2020ZC. You also have to ignore what he did for the rest of the season to come to that big number. For EE we are talking full seasons over eight years. For Collins, we are talking about a fraction of one in the minors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said: EE is 37...coming off a year where he played 10 games the last two months of the regular season and was nearly worthless in the playoffs. It is just untrue that Collins hasn't come within 50 points of .875 OPS in the minors unless you mean last year in AAA where his .951 OPS was more than 50 points above .875...he was a top ten draft pick and had an OPS above 1.000 in his three years at Miami. I think it's fair to say at their peak career value Collins might never be the hitter that EE was. But we are talking about 20202 with an old man coming off a broken wrist versus a 25 year old player with maybe the best walk rate in the minors, that hit as well as Robert in AAA and and in his last two weeks of the 2019 put up a .960 OPS in the majors. There is just no way you can say with confidence that 2020EE>2020ZC. Who will be the more productive hitter this year, Abreu or EE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: You also have to ignore what he did for the rest of the season to come to that big number. For EE we are talking full seasons over eight years. For Collins, we are talking about a fraction of one in the minors. It wasn't an unreasonable gamble by the Sox. It is inarguable that EE has been great the last eight years. I think the point is that old hitters have the end come on suddenly. We've seen several Sox prospects with wrist injuries take a year to regain their strength and they were kids. I think there is as good a chance that Collins with his elite batting eye becomes a great hitter as there is that EE continues to be a good hitter. One gamble costs you $12 million the other costs nothing. One gamble, if it pays off, has big impact for Sox in 2021-2025 the other has nothing. I know what gamble I'm taking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 14 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said: Who will be the more productive hitter this year, Abreu or EE? Abreu is 4 years younger and not coming off a broken wrist. I'd bet on Abreu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said: It wasn't an unreasonable gamble by the Sox. It is inarguable that EE has been great the last eight years. I think the point is that old hitters have the end come on suddenly. We've seen several Sox prospects with wrist injuries take a year to regain their strength and they were kids. I think there is as good a chance that Collins with his elite batting eye becomes a great hitter as there is that EE continues to be a good hitter. One gamble costs you $12 million the other costs nothing. One gamble, if it pays off, has big impact for Sox in 2021-2025 the other has nothing. I know what gamble I'm taking. The thing is if EE fails, then you still have Collins and the rest of them. Without EE you have one less option, and ones that all have much larger question marks on them than EE does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said: The thing is if EE fails, then you still have Collins and the rest of them. Without EE you have one less option, and ones that all have much larger question marks on them than EE does. I think that's fair. It never hurts to have good players around. The roster expanded to 26 this year ( I mean before the world fell apart) and having a third catcher like Collins spend most of his time tutoring under Grandal, pinch hitting and starting once a week made ok sense. It just depends on what you thought this team was going in. I kind of liked the idea of having Robert, Madrigal, Collins, Jimenez, Cease, Kopech etal all having a learn-together kind of competitive year with 2021 be the break out year. But I think management sensed they could make noise this year...and really if EE has an .880 OPS and leads them to the playoffs? I'm cheering as loudly as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 9 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Abreu is 4 years younger and not coming off a broken wrist. I'd bet on Abreu. This is absurd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, Yearnin' for Yermin said: This is absurd I'd definitely put my money on Abreu. I know you've got your bias goggles on though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said: This is absurd Absurd? Are you drunk? Abreu's career OPS is higher than EE, he is four years younger and he's not coming off a broken wrist. I mean it's fine to say that you like EE over Abreu but my position is "wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate" (Definition of absurd) ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: I think that's fair. It never hurts to have good players around. The roster expanded to 26 this year ( I mean before the world fell apart) and having a third catcher like Collins spend most of his time tutoring under Grandal, pinch hitting and starting once a week made ok sense. It just depends on what you thought this team was going in. I kind of liked the idea of having Robert, Madrigal, Collins, Jimenez, Cease, Kopech etal all having a learn-together kind of competitive year with 2021 be the break out year. But I think management sensed they could make noise this year...and really if EE has an .880 OPS and leads them to the playoffs? I'm cheering as loudly as you. Yeah, I think they viewed Dallas and EE as guys who could buy time and move up the arrival date by a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Absurd? Are you drunk? Abreu's career OPS is higher than EE, he is four years younger and he's not coming off a broken wrist. I mean it's fine to say that you like EE over Abreu but my position is "wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate" (Definition of absurd) ?????? Your OPS argument is a joke. EE has a lower OPS due to his early years. Take a look at recent years and it is no contest. EE >>> Abreu. If you are so confident, put your money where your mouth is and lets wager a ban bet on it. Edited July 20, 2020 by Yearnin' for Yermin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, ptatc said: Keuchal was the only pitcher I cared if they signed. He is the one I would trust to give the Sox quality innings and not be cost prohibitive. Dunning hasn't even pitched in AAA yet. He isn't in the they have to see what he has category. He probably will this year due to the lack of days off and no kopech but it might be pushing it. There's a reason that he's not cost prohibitive, and it's because he's super risky. I don't trust him very much at all. I would have rather them gone shopping at the bargain bin than sign Keuchel. He was the most risky FA pitcher on the market this year. His contract has a chance to backfire horribly and it could quite possibly be an albatross going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Just now, Jack Parkman said: There's a reason that he's not cost prohibitive, and it's because he's super risky. I don't trust him very much at all. I would have rather them gone shopping at the bargain bin than sign Keuchel. He was the most risky FA pitcher on the market this year. His contract has a chance to backfire horribly and it could quite possibly be an albatross going forward. I don't think you have looked at the complete lack of payroll commitments this team has for the next few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I don't think you have looked at the complete lack of payroll commitments this team has for the next few years. When you have JR complaining about losing money, does it even matter what the payroll is? Who knows, he could end up slashing payroll this winter. It would be incredibly dumb but it wouldn't surprise me. The guys the Sox have now seem to be who they're going to war with. Maybe some bargain bin hole filling here and there, but I wouldn't count on anymore spending. BC?(before covid) Sure. Now, not so much. They also have money owed to the core players like Moncada, Eloy, and Robert. Those guys aren't cheap anymore. Giolito is hitting Arb 1 next year as well, as is Lopez. Edited July 20, 2020 by Jack Parkman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said: When you have JR complaining about losing money, does it even matter what the payroll is? Who knows, he could end up slashing payroll this winter. It would be incredibly dumb but it wouldn't surprise me. The guys the Sox have now seem to be who they're going to war with. Maybe some bargain bin hole filling here and there, but I wouldn't count on anymore spending. BC?(before covid) Sure. Now, not so much. They also have money owed to the core players like Moncada, Eloy, and Robert. Those guys aren't cheap anymore. Giolito is hitting Arb 1 next year as well, as is Lopez. You worry way too much. If you are going to be upset about the contract based on a post covid world, you can't get angry about a pre-covid deal. No one planned on this. Especially because the idea that he was the riskiest pitcher on the market is just ridiculous either pre or post covid. And yes, with the extensions Eloy, Yoan and Robert are all still cheap for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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