Just Wondering

[SCCWS]

Obviously we see a lot of posts debating line-up decisions under RR. I posed the question yesterday but no one answered my query.  Most if not all teams have stat geeks in the front office. I have read or heard that Francona ( see below), Kevin Cash( Tampa Tribune article) and Aaron Boone( Sunday Night Baseball)  to name a few all consult data for games before making out their lineup.  We also hear during broadcasts that  bullpen decisions are often made via data on match-ups and pinch hitters,  I wonder if anyone w first hand knowledge knows if the White Sox have a very involved or hands off Front Office regarding  stats

https://www.morningjournal.com/news/terry-franconas-book-offers-an-interesting-inside-look-ingraham-column/article_dba3a8fa-091d-5904-82f2-24afbfd90d75.html

"Like many organizations now, the Indians included, the Red Sox are heavily into advanced metrics for evaluating players. Francona went along with the program, but only so far. "There is more that goes into lineups than numbers," he said. "There's personalities and egos. You're trying to instill some confidence. That's why you have managers. That's what I would tell John Henry (who was famous for sending Francona late-night emails questioning or suggesting strategy that either ignored or failed to act on what the numbers said). I'd say, 'John, we all know what the numbers are. So you could do this."

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

I remember Renteria in Spring Training, or SoxFest literally saying he doesn't care about advanced metrics or something like that... So I assume no, he does not consult anyone lol

[ptatc]

6 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Obviously we see a lot of posts debating line-up decisions under RR. I posed the question yesterday but no one answered my query.  Most if not all teams have stat geeks in the front office. I have read or heard that Francona ( see below), Kevin Cash( Tampa Tribune article) and Aaron Boone( Sunday Night Baseball)  to name a few all consult data for games before making out their lineup.  We also hear during broadcasts that  bullpen decisions are often made via data on match-ups and pinch hitters,  I wonder if anyone w first hand knowledge knows if the White Sox have a very involved or hands off Front Office regarding  stats

https://www.morningjournal.com/news/terry-franconas-book-offers-an-interesting-inside-look-ingraham-column/article_dba3a8fa-091d-5904-82f2-24afbfd90d75.html

"Like many organizations now, the Indians included, the Red Sox are heavily into advanced metrics for evaluating players. Francona went along with the program, but only so far. "There is more that goes into lineups than numbers," he said. "There's personalities and egos. You're trying to instill some confidence. That's why you have managers. That's what I would tell John Henry (who was famous for sending Francona late-night emails questioning or suggesting strategy that either ignored or failed to act on what the numbers said). I'd say, 'John, we all know what the numbers are. So you could do this."

If you go to the  "he-who-must-be-named" thread, players do not need managers nor do they need to listen to them so it really doesn't matter.

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, ptatc said:

If you go to the  "he-who-must-be-named" thread, players do not need managers nor do they need to listen to them so it really doesn't matter.

Ptatc:You lost me. The question is how involved is the Front Office in making player lineup decisions.  Hands on or hands off as far as RR is concerned.  Francona won a couple of World Series yet he said Boston and Cleveland were involved and he was second guessed by the owner( Boston) on occasion. 

[ptatc]

1 minute ago, SCCWS said:

Ptatc:You lost me. The question is how involved is the Front Office in making player lineup decisions.  Hands on or hands off as far as RR is concerned.  Francona won a couple of World Series yet he said Boston and Cleveland were involved and he was second guessed by the owner( Boston) on occasion. 

I know. I was commenting on the "that's why you have managers" part. If the front office calls many of the lineup decisions and the players are allowed to ignore the managers during the game, what use is there for a manager?

[hi8is]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

you go to the  "he-who-must-be-named" thread

Well played Sir, well played.

[ptatc]

38 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Well played Sir, well played.

Your idea. I just really like it and will stick to it.

[hi8is]

1 minute ago, ptatc said:

Your idea. I just really like it and will stick to it.

He who shall not be named, Jr. of the San Diego Padres hit a grand slam capping off a 7 RBI game in Arlington.

?

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Tony said:

This is a strawman argument and you know it, you're much smarter than that. 

Anyone that complains about Ricky is then obviously acknowledging the fact managers do make a difference, otherwise there would be no point in the discussion. A manager sets the lineup, makes in-game tactical decisions, aids in the development of players and keeps control of the clubhouse. 

The Front Office conversation is an interesting one. I personally believe that if the Front Office wants to set the lineup and remove that from the managers control....that's fine, but everyone needs to be on the same page. If that's something Terry Francona wants to control, then you shouldn't have hired him if you planned on setting the lineup everyday. If you want a veteran manager who is more "traditional" then you know what comes with that. e

I don't think its a strawman argument. I think it's people changing their philosophy based on what suits their opinion. They think the manager can be ignored yet blame the manger not the player when things don't go well.

I agree that the most important aspect is that the GM and manager are on the same page. It doesn't work well if they aren't. I think that's why Renteria is still around. This is why when everyone complains about all of his lineups and moves, I'm indifferent because I don't think most of them are strictly his moves. The team acquired players like Mazara to see if they could work with him to become an everyday player. He will get that opportunity no matter how he is currently doing against LHP.

[ptatc]

14 minutes ago, Tony said:

Again, you are minimizing or blazing past the real issues because they hurt your argument. 
 

Fans want their teams to win. That’s obvious. When Rick Renteria seemingly has Jose Abreu’s batting position at #3 carved in stone, people complain. When Rick calls for a bunt in the 3rd inning with Moncada, people complain. When he leaves a pitcher in far too long, people people complain. These are decisions of the manager, and they DO matter. Now, when Luis Robert is up with two men on in the 9th and he strikes out, I’m not blaming Rick, or any manager for that matter on the result. That’s on the player. But when issues seem to be team wide, be it bad defense, bad base running, too many strikeouts.....that’s when it starts to go back to a coaching staff and if he has his team prepared day in and day out.

There is obviously a grey area with all of this, but the point remains....if you are going to complain about the manager, you also can’t claim they don’t matter. Can’t have it both ways.

No I'm not at least I don't think I am.  The issues of team wide bad defense or too mnay strikeouts is more an aspect of team construction than it is individual coaching. No coach is going to get TA to walk 100 times per year. No coach is going to turn Eloy into an above average fielder. I'll give you the bad base running as that is a function of decisions as opposed to natural talent or lack thereof.

My point is what you said in the last sentence. This agree with. Maybe i haven't expressed it correctly. Personally, I think mangers in baseball matter very little strategy wise, I do think they matter in keeping players playing for them over a long season.

[SCCWS]

15 hours ago, Tony said:

This is a strawman argument and you know it, you're much smarter than that. 

Anyone that complains about Ricky is then obviously acknowledging the fact managers do make a difference, otherwise there would be no point in the discussion. A manager sets the lineup, makes in-game tactical decisions, aids in the development of players and keeps control of the clubhouse. 

The Front Office conversation is an interesting one. I personally believe that if the Front Office wants to set the lineup and remove that from the managers control....that's fine, but everyone needs to be on the same page. If that's something Terry Francona wants to control, then you shouldn't have hired him if you planned on setting the lineup everyday. If you want a veteran manager who is more "traditional" then you know what comes with that. e

Tony: I have been following baseball and the White Sox for over 50 years. But when I read Francona's book, I was amazed ( or maybe naive) at how involved the Boston Front Office was in the day to day lineup and bullpen decisions. Never mind ownership even weighing in on player decisions that were made.  I see it as Francona being old school and he probably uses what info he likes but still wants to have control. On the other side we have a Kevin Cash who is very much a stat/video guru. End of the day, both have had success with their approach.