greg775 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 hour ago, smellysox said: It is almost becoming an awkward situation. We have Grandal off to a really slow start and a really big contract. And then we have McCann picking up right where he left off. Plus the fact that he has a great flow/ game plan with Giolito. And he has history with Keuchel too (teammates at Arkansas). I think there is a way they both could coexist on this team. They both bring alot to the table. Sox will not pay huge dollars to a backup catcher, thus he has to go. Somebody's going to give him a lot of moolah, though if I owned a team I would wait and see on TV money and COVID's future effect on attendance before signing anybody. Until COVID situation becomes controllable, I don't see how any owner would commit a lot of money to any player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Nah, I don’t want to see Grandal fail. He’s a huge piece of the puzzle considering they paid him to be the starting catcher for the next 4 seasons. But I’m still upset they didn’t extend McCann and use the Grandal cost savings to upgrade RF and/or SP. Grandal is going to be fine. I'd stick him at sixth in the order for the next 4 years. Collins can play the Karkovice role (early in his career when he couldn't gain the starting job) for 4 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 30 minutes ago, Tony said: What guys want and what they get are two different things. We all thought there was no way they sign Moncada to an extension.....it happened. Just saying. I was thinking 4 YR 32M, but I certainly think he would take a 3yr 30 M deal (ballpark wise he gets the deal that provides security). He's still on the older side and with COVID the market this offseason will likely be slow. McCann wants to get paid and while I know he might want to start, he can get plenty of at bats and run on this team with Grandal and I'm sure get plenty of moments in the spotlight as this team consistently plays in the postseason! This is one of those moves I think you do in-season vs. waiting until the off-season too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capital G Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I'm a huge fan but we're not going to pay for what he wants... to be a starter... which he's earned. Its a situation that sucks for us but you can't fault either side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 He’s really our smartest hitter. Those singles to right and right center are pure skill. He can do that at will. Similar to Paulie’s run as the professor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Trade him. Sell high. He won't be here next season. Yes it takes some guts to sell high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 20 minutes ago, Tony said: It’s way to small of a sample size to really make an assessment, this is 100% true. It’s also true that Giolito has gone out of his way to praise McCann, especially early this year. I think Grandal will be fine, especially with the starting staff and catching duties. I also really like McCann. There is nothing wrong with liking McCann and acknowledging that Lucas prefers to work with him, but a certain poster here goes out of his way trying to shit on one of the best catchers of the past decade in some crazy attempt to justify his dissatisfaction with us signing him and ultimately pushing McCann to the curb. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxJon Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Should do? Lock him up Will do? Probably let walk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said: There is nothing wrong with liking McCann and acknowledging that Lucas prefers to work with him, but a certain poster here goes out of his way trying to shit on one of the best catchers of the past decade in some crazy attempt to justify his dissatisfaction with us signing him and ultimately pushing McCann to the curb. Lol. Didn’t know there was only one right opinion on these matters and it’s clearly not mine! Carry on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 42 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: How so? Those are the stats. And Giolito himself has constantly praised McCann over the last two seasons and attributed much of his success to McCann. Did it again today. Giolito’s a smart dude. This is his not so subtle way of telling Ricky that McCann needs to start when he’s on the mound (while also avoiding a rift with Grandal). You are throwing around "stats" like it has some meaning at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 23 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Nah, I don’t want to see Grandal fail. He’s a huge piece of the puzzle considering they paid him to be the starting catcher for the next 4 seasons. But I’m still upset they didn’t extend McCann and use the Grandal cost savings to upgrade RF and/or SP. And that’s fine, but you don’t need pick at small sample sizes in hopes of justifying your position 26 games into a pandemic fueled season. Grandal has one of the best track records in all of baseball while McCann was non-tendered by the fucking Tigers two years ago and was brutal as a framer last year. I’ve come to really appreciate McCann and do believe he’s made real strides as a hitter, but no way in hell is he a better all-around catcher than Grandal because of a slow 13 starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Tony said: Like in most cases, going to the absolutely extreme in any case isn’t the right call. Truth always lies somewhere in the middle. I don’t think my opinion is extreme at all. The main reason I was less than thrilled with the Grandal signing is because the Sox already had an all star catcher on the roster (some call it a fluke, whatever), a gaping hole in RF, and a lack of depth in the rotation. I preferred the Sox utilize their limited resources on upgrading areas of weakness rather than attempting to upgrade a position that already had a league average starter at the worst, that’s all. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shakes Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 30 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: We don’t need to spend $10M on backup catcher and part time DH when we have Grandal, Abreu, & Vaughn in front of him. It’s a poor use of our resources when we have gaping holes at the top of our rotation and in RF like you imply. Likely true, but I just have doubts they'll spend big in those areas and I like the idea of having good catchers help the staff along. The Sox have money to spend, and only have a couple of needs, and don't like big long contracts. I also have no idea what the market will look like, so maybe this is a good year to shop elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: Lol. Didn’t know there was only one right opinion on these matters and it’s clearly not mine! Carry on What part is opinion exactly? Do you actually believe Grandal is bad, because you sure seem to go out of your way to make him look that way by pointing out bad stats that are based on ridiculously small sample sizes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said: What part is opinion exactly? Do you actually believe Grandal is bad, because you sure seem to go out of your way to make him look that way by pointing out bad stats that are based on ridiculously small sample sizes. I’ve said repeatedly Grandal is a good player. I suppose my opinion is that he’s a “good” player and not a “great” one as so many others here seem to think. I said this in the game thread but everyone here quotes his fWAR number as the basis for being a “top 2 catcher in MLB.” My opinion of him aligns with his bWAR, which you’ll notice is nearly half of his fWAR number over the course of his career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 46 minutes ago, Tony said: I think this is absolutely not true. Which part? If it’s the second sentence, I don’t actually believe that. I think Giolito could have 32 starts with Grandal and 32 with McCann and the numbers would be about identical. He may prefer McCann but that’s just a comfort thing that he will establish with Grandal over time, too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 Let’s put it this way, 17.2 bWAR over the first 8 years of Grandal’s career is good but it’s certainly not top 2 catcher in MLB good. Also, I sound like Greg here, but I’ve never been overly impressed watching him play (aka the good old eye test). Maybe that’s because most of the time I’d watched him pre-Sox was in the playoffs, where he’s struggled mightily over the course of his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I don’t think my opinion is extreme at all. The main reason I was less than thrilled with the Grandal signing is because the Sox already had an all star catcher on the roster (some call it a fluke, whatever), a gaping hole in RF, and a lack of depth in the rotation. I preferred the Sox utilize their limited resources on upgrading areas of weakness rather than attempting to upgrade a position that already had a league average starter at the worst, that’s all. We needed a left-handed power bat, more OBP, and better framing and there was one player on the market who filled all three needs. That along with McCann’s lack of a track record were the reasons for signing Grandal. It’s totally fair if you don’t agree with the decision, but let’s not ignore the fact Grandal has put up 25 fWAR over the past five years whereas McCann has put up 2. Yasmani isn’t some scrub, he’s literally been one of the best players in baseball over the last half decade. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 46 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Grandal has made 13 starts at catcher for the White Sox. He’s literally only caught these guys a couple of times. I know you want to see Grandal fail to prove you were right about McCann, but at least try to objective. Quoting CERA at this stage of a season for a catcher just getting to know his staff is quite frankly ridiculous. When the sample is this small, you have to look game by game. For example, Grandal caught Giolito’s start against the Twins, as well as Lopez’s. I don’t think the quality of catcher would’ve changed their lack of fastball command and the powerful offense. Grandal also caught that Drew Anderson game that we weren’t actively trying to win. On the other hand, McCann has caught most of Keuchel’s starts and Giolito’s starts against bad offenses (CLE/DET). Obviously his “catcher ERA” will be lower 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: We needed a left-handed power bat, more OBP, and better framing and there was one player on the market who filled all three needs. That along with McCann’s lack of a track record were the reasons for signing Grandal. It’s totally fair if you don’t agree with the decision, but let’s not ignore the fact Grandal has put up 25 fWAR over the past five years whereas McCann has put up 2. Yasmani isn’t some scrub, he’s literally been one of the best players in baseball over the last half decade. There’s the fWAR line again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: I’ve said repeatedly Grandal is a good player. I suppose my opinion is that he’s a “good” player and not a “great” one as so many others here seem to think. I said this in the game thread but everyone here quotes his fWAR number as the basis for being a “top 2 catcher in MLB.” My opinion of him aligns with his bWAR, which you’ll notice is nearly half of his fWAR number over the course of his career. Last I knew bWAR didn’t account for pitch framing and would be completed useless in evaluating catchers, especially one like Grandal who excels in framing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, GreenSox said: Trade him. Sell high. He won't be here next season. Yes it takes some guts to sell high. It does and I'm sorta of the same mindset. If the sox can get a top 75 guy for him it's a no brainer. You never will go broke buying for a dollar and selling for 2. Trading aphorisms are applicable here. Buy low sell high and be greedy when others are afraid. Tell grandal to call more changeups... Edited August 21, 2020 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: Which part? If it’s the second sentence, I don’t actually believe that. I think Giolito could have 32 starts with Grandal and 32 with McCann and the numbers would be about identical. He may prefer McCann but that’s just a comfort thing that he will establish with Grandal over time, too I mostly agree with this. I do think McCann’s game calling might provide some value over Grandal’s, but I don’t think it’s that significant and over I’d expect the gap to narrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said: There’s the fWAR line again... And yet you cite a legitimately flawed stat for catchers ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted August 21, 2020 Share Posted August 21, 2020 I am not sure where I stand on that. I think McCann is the first catcher that made me notice game calling, in part due to how terrible it was from our catchers prior. i wanted him locked up last year but it is what it is now. He earned it. I’ll miss him for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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