What should the Sox do with James McCann?

[chitownsportsfan]

We should make the internet stickers not anonymous so I can laugh at a specific joker when a clearly improved James gets an aav over 14mm for 3 years.

Dude has been going deep in counts and serving balls into the RF gap for a season now,the guy that tried to pull everything in the D is gone.

Also the sox' new PC is doing work.  Got these guys doing what the feel comfortable with at the dish.  Talent helps but don't smother it.

Edited August 21, 2020 by chitownsportsfan

[EloyJenkins]

7 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

We should make the internet stickers not anonymous so I can laugh at a specific joker when a clearly improved James gets an aav over 14mm for 3 years.

Dude has been going deep in counts and serving balls into the RF gap for a season now,the guy that tried to pull everything in the D is gone.

Also the sox' new PC is doing work.  Got these guys doing what the feel comfortable with at the dish.  Talent helps but don't smother it.

3/42??? I need some of that reefer man. In post covid times he gets 3/30 at absolute tops and 2/18 with a 8 million option is probably reality. I like McCann but this hero worship is out of control.

[elrockinMT]

Keep McCann using him at catcher and DH. Same with Grandahl

Edited August 21, 2020 by elrockinMT

[Dominikk85]

James  had a great start but let's not get ahead of ourselves. His success is mostly driven by babip, he doesn't walk, has an average contact rate but a bit but not plus pop, projections all have him like around 80-90 wRC+.

Now I do think he did improve some, his k rate went down and his power went up but he is also a 30 yo coming of a career year so I expect regression.

Also fangraphs framing metrics have him consistently below average there (no value for this season yet though).

I'm fine with him as a backup for another 1-2 years and you obviously ride his hot streak as long as it goes but he is nowhere near the player grandal is.

You do have to make a decision on collins though. Sox have enough guys at 1b/dh and imo you either have to give him backup catcher for like 40-50 games a year and DH stints on other days or you trade him as long term it makes no sense to carry a 3rd catcher/second DH on the roster.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

No chance? I think he’d be lucky to exceed $10M on an AAV basis. $18M+ is going to be really hard to turn down. 

Unless the rules have changed, B tier free agents don’t typically turn the QO as it’s a ton of money and opposing teams usually won’t give up a high pick for them.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 hours ago, elrockinMT said:

Keep McCann using him at catcher and DH. Same with Grandahl

Who you benching to DH him next year, Abreu or Vaughn?

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Dominikk85 said:

James  had a great start but let's not get ahead of ourselves. His success is mostly driven by babip, he doesn't walk, has an average contact rate but a bit but not plus pop, projections all have him like around 80-90 wRC+.

Now I do think he did improve some, his k rate went down and his power went up but he is also a 30 yo coming of a career year so I expect regression.

Also fangraphs framing metrics have him consistently below average there (no value for this season yet though).

I'm fine with him as a backup for another 1-2 years and you obviously ride his hot streak as long as it goes but he is nowhere near the player grandal is.

You do have to make a decision on collins though. Sox have enough guys at 1b/dh and imo you either have to give him backup catcher for like 40-50 games a year and DH stints on other days or you trade him as long term it makes no sense to carry a 3rd catcher/second DH on the roster.

McCann’s xwOBACON is .499 on the season, which means his quality of contact has been fantastic.  Obviously that’s not sustainable, but I truly believe he’s developed into a slightly better than league average hitter, which is a great for a catcher.  Despite poor framing numbers, he deserves to be a starting catcher somewhere and will almost certainly get that opportunity.  I see no way in hell the Sox commit $28M to $30M to their catching spots when they have bigger fish to fry.  And I know I’m in the minority, but Collins is good enough behind the plate to start 40 to 50 games for us next year.  We brought on Grandal to be a horse behind the plate and that’s what he should he be going forward.  I really appreciate McCann for what he’s become, but I don’t see any chance of him returning to the Sox next year.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And yet you cite a legitimately flawed stat for catchers ?

How is fWAR an end all be all stat for catchers? Does it account for game calling? Does it account for how a catcher handles a pitcher’s composure when they’re rattled?  It’s certainly not perfect but that’s where stats like CERA become relevant because those soft skills at the catcher’s position are so difficult to quantify in a stat like WAR. It’s the most unique defensive position on the field.

[Dominikk85]

fwar does now include framing, I think this improved it a lot for catchers. Without framing it was pretty useless of course.

CERA creates way too much noise to be reliable especially in a 1-2 year sample.

[Flash]

Both SD and TB are rich in ML talent, are PO-bound and need upgrades at catcher. Yankees (Sanchez isn't the answer) might also be in the market. McCann has strong trade value. Maybe a combo to include Rodon and/or Lopez would generate an interesting return.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

51 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

How is fWAR an end all be all stat for catchers? Does it account for game calling? Does it account for how a catcher handles a pitcher’s composure when they’re rattled?  It’s certainly not perfect but that’s where stats like CERA become relevant because those soft skills at the catcher’s position are so difficult to quantify in a stat like WAR. It’s the most unique defensive position on the field.

No stat is perfect for valuing catchers, but using a stat that completely ignores pitch framing (all else being equal) is just dumb.  By using bWAR, you are basically saying all the value Grandal provides as a framer is meaningless.

[Chicago White Sox]

35 minutes ago, Dominikk85 said:

fwar does now include framing, I think this improved it a lot for catchers. Without framing it was pretty useless of course.

CERA creates way too much noise to be reliable especially in a 1-2 year sample.

CERA is great in theory, but you’d need a large sample for it to have any merit and would also have to normalize it for so many factors that it’s nothing more than an interesting reference point IMO.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Neither side is going to convince the other. My position has been simple. The Sox were already set at catcher for this year and could have been beyond if they offered a reasonable extension to McCann last winter. I preferred they utilized the Grandal money for an upgrade in RF and/or SP. SP, in particular, wins in the playoffs and Grandal has a history of performing horribly during the playoffs, the time where you need him the most. 

We’ll see how things play out but I don’t see this debate going away any time soon and will continue into late next month as the Sox head into the postseason.

Edited August 21, 2020 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[SonofaRoache]

9 hours ago, tray said:

You hand  the other catcher spot to Collins who will be 26 next year.  He can't call a game without looking into the dugout for signs.

And you rely on Grandal as the no. 1 catcher, a guy who looks like hr is boxing out physically and is currently sidelined  with lower back pain...always a good sign for a catcher's longevity.

McCann has almost no trade value. He will wait to be a FA if the Sox don't sign him.

So no loss, let an All Star catcher walk for your boy Collins,  a guy who is slow behind the plate , worth -.5 WAR and has hit  .167 in 102 major league at-bats.

I swear, some people want to suk Collins dry but I don't get the love. 

 

It's not a Collins love fest, it is just realizing McCann may not want to be a backup. And the Sox may not want to pay him 8 to 10 million to be a backup. Get used to Collins because McCann is gone after this year. It sucks, but it is the truth. 

[ChiSox59]

9 hours ago, tray said:

You want to ride that horse into the ground?

He played 153 games last year, 140 the year before. Yes, some at 1B and DH. But he should be catching most of the time and DHing or playing 1B when he’s not.

Obviously with McCann around, he can’t catch 90% of the games. But in future years, he should come close to that. The guy is really fucking good and he needs to play.

[ChiSox59]

9 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

We should make the internet stickers not anonymous so I can laugh at a specific joker when a clearly improved James gets an aav over 14mm for 3 years.

Dude has been going deep in counts and serving balls into the RF gap for a season now,the guy that tried to pull everything in the D is gone.

Also the sox' new PC is doing work.  Got these guys doing what the feel comfortable with at the dish.  Talent helps but don't smother it.

Lol. James McCann isn’t getting $14M AAV in a multi year deal. Zero chance. 

[SonofaRoache]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

He played 153 games last year, 140 the year before. Yes, some at 1B and DH. But he should be catching most of the time and DHing or playing 1B when he’s not.

Obviously with McCann around, he can’t catch 90% of the games. But in future years, he should come close to that. The guy is really fucking good and he needs to play.

Yeah Grandal is considered a top 3 catcher in baseball and we act like he is trash. 

[ChiSox59]

Just now, SonofaRoache said:

Yeah Grandal is considered a top 3 catcher in baseball and we act like he is trash. 

To be fair, it’s only a handful of posters that clearly don’t understand SSS or pay attention to much around the game that doesn’t involve the white Sox. 

[ChiSox59]

58 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Neither side is going to convince the other. My position has been simple. The Sox were already set at catcher for this year and could have been beyond if they offered a reasonable extension to McCann last winter. I preferred they utilized the Grandal money for an upgrade in RF and/or SP. SP, in particular, wins in the playoffs and Grandal has a history of performing horribly during the playoffs, the time where you need him the most. 

We’ll see how things play out but I don’t see this debate going away any time soon and will continue into late next month as the Sox head into the postseason.

Grandal was quite literally the single best FA fit for White Sox last off-season, and it’s not really even close. The Sox are full of low OBP free swingers froM the right side. He adds lineup balance, high OBP (still at .350 despite the tough start!), and fills the hardest position on the diamond for 4 seasons, 3 of which McCann was not under control. A dinged up and punch less first 15 or so games after a 4 month hiatus doesn’t change any of that. 

[southsider2k5]

10 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Probably but the leverage is real.  If a team (and I don't pretend to know which one) has a black hole at catcher and are at the end of their window to contend maybe ur ask gets filled by an over excited bidder.  

To me this season seems real and legit, I'd imagine the deadline is gonna be active.  Sox put a lure out on James who knows what will bite.

Then why would the Sox shoot themselves in the foot at the deadline by weakening a probably playoff team?

 

[southsider2k5]

The other part of this is if we bring back McCann for years down the road, we also block Vaughn for a longer period of time, by pushing a lot of McCann ABs into the DH slot.  You still have Jose Abreu on this team for another couple of years, and he will need somewhere to play.  Even if you think Vaughn should play 1B, he isn't going to come in and shove Abreu out if he has no where to play.  Abreu might end up going to DH, but they aren't going to bench Abreu for McCann or Vaughn, which means Vaughn won't have an open slot.

[Dominikk85]

2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

CERA is great in theory, but you’d need a large sample for it to have any merit and would also have to normalize it for so many factors that it’s nothing more than an interesting reference point IMO.

I think it both needs a large sample and also changing pitchers. A catcher can also benefit from catching certain pitchers enough or maybe you just fit very well with certain pitchers.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

11 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And that’s fine, but you don’t need pick at small sample sizes in hopes of justifying your position 26 games into a pandemic fueled season.  Grandal has one of the best track records in all of baseball while McCann was non-tendered by the fucking Tigers two years ago and was brutal as a framer last year.  I’ve come to really appreciate McCann and do believe he’s made real strides as a hitter, but no way in hell is he a better all-around catcher than Grandal because of a slow 13 starts.

No offense but this is a small sample size season. If u stick with a cold player too long it might cost you games. Mazara sample size is small and everyone hates him. You accuse JGB of confirmation bias but someone could say the same about you and Marzara. Only difference is you got the whole board on your side with Mazara while JGB has a minority opinion .

[GreenSox]

53 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Then why would the Sox shoot themselves in the foot at the deadline by weakening a probably playoff team?

 

Trade him for a player who will make the team better and perhaps for longer.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

59 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Grandal was quite literally the single best FA fit for White Sox last off-season, and it’s not really even close. The Sox are full of low OBP free swingers froM the right side. He adds lineup balance, high OBP (still at .350 despite the tough start!), and fills the hardest position on the diamond for 4 seasons, 3 of which McCann was not under control. A dinged up and punch less first 15 or so games after a 4 month hiatus doesn’t change any of that. 

Your opinion. Doesn’t make it a fact