Clevinger wanted to be White Sox

[ChiSox59]

The people ripping on Grandal crack me up.  This is basically who he is.  He's not that far off from his career numbers and like 4-5 days ago his slash line was basically identical to his career slash line.

He's a catcher, and an elite one.  He's not going to hit .300.  He's an unbelievably good fit for this roster in terms of OBP and lineup balance, and is easily a top 2 catcher in the game.  Stop complaining.  

James McCann has been really good this year when he's gotten the opportunity to play, much like he was the first half of next year.  I'd love to keep him around past 2020, but chances of him wanting to resign to be in 30/70 or so timeshase with one of the best catchers in the league is doubtful.  Its not that hard to figure out.  

[JuliusO1274]

I am not reading anything that says he wanted to play for the White Sox. I am sure who would have been fine playing for the Sox but just because he talked to Tim Anderson doesn't mean he wanted to be traded here.

[bmags]

20 minutes ago, Tony said:

And this is total speculation on my part, but I actually give a lot of credit to our front office if they approached the group and said “Guys, how would you feel if we traded someone like Kopech for help this year? Are you OK with that or do you want to keep the core we’ve built here intact?” That doesn’t mean Hahn has to do what the players suggest, but a good leader hears out opinions from the people in important positions and then has to make the decision they feel is best for the organization. That’s why they are in the leadership position. 
 

Again, all speculation from me, but I think it’s very possible this is how it went down. 

Yeah Even if it wasn't close-close, they may have discussed all targets to see if there were any red flags from player perspective on both (perhaps) sending out specific guys or receiving specific ones.

[BigHurt3515]

24 minutes ago, Tony said:

And this is total speculation on my part, but I actually give a lot of credit to our front office if they approached the group and said “Guys, how would you feel if we traded someone like Kopech for help this year? Are you OK with that or do you want to keep the core we’ve built here intact?” That doesn’t mean Hahn has to do what the players suggest, but a good leader hears out opinions from the people in important positions and then has to make the decision they feel is best for the organization. That’s why they are in the leadership position. 
 

Again, all speculation from me, but I think it’s very possible this is how it went down. 

I guess I took the meeting about Clevinger differently. Thought it was mainly "would you want this guy here after what he did in Cleveland"

I would be surprised if the front office asked about specific guys we might trade from our team

[Leonard Zelig]

grandalmccanntalk.com

[Quin]

This is TA getting in the heads of the Padres' clubhouse. Now everyone in that clubhouse will distrust Clevinger - he was trying to escape the Indians, not party with Plesac, and get to the Sox. Who's to say he'll want to be with the Padres? Does he really love them?

4D chess by our star shortstop. 

[macsandz]

The majority of players asked discouraged the Clevinger add for several reasons not the least of which is his attitude. The team also contacted several former CLE teammates as well FWIW. 

[hi8is]

3 minutes ago, macsandz said:

The majority of players asked discouraged the Clevinger add for several reasons not the least of which is his attitude. The team also contacted several former CLE teammates as well FWIW. 

Much interestingo mi brothero.

[BigHurt3515]

37 minutes ago, Tony said:

You're right that specifically identifying a White Sox player that might be traded may be a little too extreme. I could see it happening, but they probably spoke in more general terms about possible departures. 

But, I do think the meeting was more than just about Clevinger, based on what Abreu said:

“It was like a family gathering, like a family discussion about the state of the team and what we wanted to do and how we wanted to approach different things. We were able to just be on the same page about what we want to do. For us as players, it was a very important, a very honest meeting. We shared our opinions about things, and moving forward, we're going to be as good as we have been, or even better. It was a very, very good meeting for all of us.”

I think the Sox are in a very unique spot, and I believe the FO thought it was appropriate to bring in the players to this discussion. Look at a team like the Mets. They are 15-21 but made some additions at the deadline because they are only like 1.5 games out of a wild card spot. That's a team where I don't think you go to the core group of players and have a sit down meeting. Whole different situation. But the Sox have been one of the better teams in MLB and seemingly have a great thing going inside the clubhouse, and they know reinforcements are coming in Kopech, Vaughn and a few others. Those are two guys almost everyone on the ML roster have played with in Spring Training and know their talents. In a case like this, I think it's unique but also appropriate and believable for Rick to come to the core and say "Are you comfortable with us moving a few pieces to help this club win NOW, or would you rather go to war with the group we have now?" Again, doesn't mean Rick has to do what the players say, but I think hearing from the players is a good thing. 

I'm reading A LOT into things, I'm well aware of that, this is just a speculative conversation at this point. 

I love that we had a meeting like this, I can't remember many organizations doing something like that at the trade deadline. The transparency between front office and players I feel is very important for an organization to have success for the long haul

[mqr]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

The people ripping on Grandal crack me up.  This is basically who he is.  He's not that far off from his career numbers and like 4-5 days ago his slash line was basically identical to his career slash line.

Idk if I mentioned it here, but I definitely had conversations where I said there's like a 95% chance a huge chunk of Sox fans hate Grandal even he does exactly what he's done the past few years. 

His positive traits are quiet, and you kinda have to spend too much time thinking about baseball to appreciate some of them, whereas the negative parts are pretty loud (ie low BA, not particularly spectacular power, blocking issues etc.)

Edited September 2, 2020 by mqr

[Quin]

11 minutes ago, BigHurt3515 said:

I love that we had a meeting like this, I can't remember many organizations doing something like that at the trade deadline. The transparency between front office and players I feel is very important for an organization to have success for the long haul

Gar Forman in shambles.

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, mqr said:

Idk if I mentioned it here, but I definitely had conversations where I said there's like a 95% chance a huge chunk of Sox fans hate Grandal even he does exactly what he's done the past few years. 

His positive traits are quiet, and you kinda have to spend too much time thinking about baseball to appreciate them, whereas the negative parts are pretty loud (ie low BA, not particularly spectacular power, blocking issues etc.)

I mean fathom called for years prior to acquiring him.

[South Side Hit Men]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

The people ripping on Grandal crack me up.  This is basically who he is.  He's not that far off from his career numbers and like 4-5 days ago his slash line was basically identical to his career slash line.

He's a catcher, and an elite one.  He's not going to hit .300.  He's an unbelievably good fit for this roster in terms of OBP and lineup balance, and is easily a top 2 catcher in the game.  Stop complaining.  

James McCann has been really good this year when he's gotten the opportunity to play, much like he was the first half of next year.  I'd love to keep him around past 2020, but chances of him wanting to resign to be in 30/70 or so timeshase with one of the best catchers in the league is doubtful.  Its not that hard to figure out.  

Grandal should get better with working with the staff once he gets more time and he is a good pitch framer. That said, terrible or elite are bridges too far. He is on the wrong side of 30, and someone whose recent comps are Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Alex Avila shouldn't be a candidate for the biggest contract ever, but that is where the front office has taken us.

Grandal career similarity scores: Stan Lopata, John Romano, Chris Hoiles, Jarrod Saltalamacchia & Alex Avila.

Grandal's age similarity scores: Jarrod Saltalmacchia (25-28) & Todd Hundley (29-30).

Edited September 2, 2020 by South Side Hit Men

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

20 minutes ago, mqr said:

Idk if I mentioned it here, but I definitely had conversations where I said there's like a 95% chance a huge chunk of Sox fans hate Grandal even he does exactly what he's done the past few years. 

His positive traits are quiet, and you kinda have to spend too much time thinking about baseball to appreciate some of them, whereas the negative parts are pretty loud (ie low BA, not particularly spectacular power, blocking issues etc.)

The one trait other than OBP that everyone talked up about Grandal was his pitch framing. That should be a loud trait because you’d see him stealing strikes/strikeouts for our pitchers regularly. But I’m still waiting for that to happen.

[Quin]

13 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Grandal should get better with working with the staff once he gets more time and he is a good pitch framer. That said, terrible or elite are bridges too far. He is on the wrong side of 30, and someone whose recent comps are Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Alex Avila shouldn't be a candidate for the biggest contract ever, but that is where the front office has taken us.

Grandal career similarity scores: Stan Lopata, John Romano, Chris Hoiles, Jarrod Saltalamacchia & Alex Avila.

Grandal's age similarity scores: Jarrod Saltalmacchia (25-28) & Todd Hundley (29-30).

He's been the most valuable catcher in baseball over the past 5 years.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

He's been the most valuable catcher in baseball over the past 5 years.

The only problem is the Sox signed him to be their catcher for this season and the next three, not the past five.

[bmags]

17 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The one trait other than OBP that everyone talked up about Grandal was his pitch framing. That should be a loud trait because you’d see him stealing strikes/strikeouts for our pitchers regularly. But I’m still waiting for that to happen.

A 60 game season is probably the worst thing to see an impact, and it's a volume stat so it's unlikely game to game you'd really notice. The umpiring has also been so bad this year that maybe it's been negated more than usual.

[Quin]

1 minute ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

The only problem is the Sox signed him to be their catcher for this season and the next three, not the past five.

Ok, I can do the same thing for McCann:

Wrong side of 30, but I guess one year younger.

His comps are Travis d'Arnaud and Chris Widger.

By age we got...these dudes:

26. Bill Nahorodny 

27. Jerry Moses 

28. Harry Chiti 

29. Joe Oliver

And McCann is the 28th most valuable catcher over the same timeframe.

They're both good. Grandal has an elite track record. McCann doesn't. 

Also, give Grandal more than 36 games to get used to our staff so you can see pitch framing.

[chw42]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

A 60 game season is probably the worst thing to see an impact, and it's a volume stat so it's unlikely game to game you'd really notice. The umpiring has also been so bad this year that maybe it's been negated more than usual.

You'd think the bad umpires would be easier to fool.

It's a good point though. Maybe this crew we're usually stuck with just hates Grandal. He gets screwed over at the plate quite a bit.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, Quin said:

Ok, I can do the same thing for McCann:

Wrong side of 30, but I guess one year younger.

His comps are Travis d'Arnaud and Chris Widger.

By age we got...these dudes:

26. Bill Nahorodny 

27. Jerry Moses 

28. Harry Chiti 

29. Joe Oliver

And McCann is the 28th most valuable catcher over the same timeframe.

They're both good. Grandal has an elite track record. McCann doesn't. 

Also, give Grandal more than 36 games to get used to our staff so you can see pitch framing.

But I’m not the one arguing that McCann is “elite”. And past performance is no guarantee for future success. I don’t care what Grandal and Encarnación did for teams prior to the White Sox. I care about how they perform for the White Sox. I realize you often pay for past performance when you participate in free agency but the front office has to improve in free agency moving forward. Keuchel was a great signing but I wish they signed another starting pitcher last winter.

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, chw42 said:

You'd think the bad umpires would be easier to fool.

It's a good point though. Maybe this crew we're usually stuck with just hates Grandal. He gets screwed over at the plate quite a bit.

I honestly have no idea it’s effect, but they have been just so inconsistent. Maybe the lack of fans has something to do with it.

[Quin]

Just now, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

But I’m not the one arguing that McCann is “elite”. And past performance is no guarantee for future success. I don’t care what Grandal and Encarnación did for teams prior to the White Sox. I care about how they perform for the White Sox. I realize you often pay for past performance when you participate in free agency but the front office has to improve in free agency moving forward. Keuchel was a great signing but I wish they signed another starting pitcher last winter.

They tried to get Zack Wheeler and he took less money to play in Philly.

Who else did you want?

And again, we're in a weird, 60 game season. Grandal was elite as recently as last season. He's still a top 4 catcher this season so far.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, Quin said:

They tried to get Zack Wheeler and he took less money to play in Philly.

Who else did you want?

And again, we're in a weird, 60 game season. Grandal was elite as recently as last season. He's still a top 4 catcher this season so far.

I’ve already had this debate with ChiSox but I wanted an upgrade at either RF or SP before catcher. Castellanos was my preference for RF and Ryu my preference for SP. The starting rotation was so RH heavy that it seemed like Keuchel and Ryu were the perfect compliments to balance it out. Also would give more time for the young guys like Kopech, Cease, Dunning, etc to develop.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Grandal should get better with working with the staff once he gets more time and he is a good pitch framer. That said, terrible or elite are bridges too far. He is on the wrong side of 30, and someone whose recent comps are Jarrod Saltalamacchia and Alex Avila shouldn't be a candidate for the biggest contract ever, but that is where the front office has taken us.

Grandal career similarity scores: Stan Lopata, John Romano, Chris Hoiles, Jarrod Saltalamacchia & Alex Avila.

Grandal's age similarity scores: Jarrod Saltalmacchia (25-28) & Todd Hundley (29-30).

LOL!  Yasmani Grandal accumulated more fWAR in the 2019 season than Saltalamacchio did in his entire career.  

This is an awful take.  

[turnin' two]

2 hours ago, macsandz said:

The majority of players asked discouraged the Clevinger add for several reasons not the least of which is his attitude. The team also contacted several former CLE teammates as well FWIW. 

Alonso finally paying off????