The grandal hate is vastly overblown

[ChiSox59]

10 minutes ago, fathom said:

Stoney not a fan either 

https://mobile.twitter.com/stevestone/status/1301379035944157184

I didn't really read it that way.

The thing is, Grandal really isn't that far off from his career stat line.  He's a great hitter for a catcher, but not necessarily a great hitter in general.  I would have no problem dropping him down in the lineup some.  Maybe something like Anderson, Moncada, Eloy, Abreu, Grandal, Robert, EE, Mazara/Engel, Madrigal.  I think it does make sense to break up Eloy, Abreu, Robert and EE, so he would go somewhere in between those spots.  

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, fathom said:

Stoney not a fan either 

https://mobile.twitter.com/stevestone/status/1301379035944157184

That's really awkwardly written.  I think he is actually trying to say that he DOESN'T believe that because of his first sentence, otherwise the second sentence doesn't make any sense with the first one.

[supernuke]

24 minutes ago, HOFHurt35 said:

Unfortunately #1 starters get paid $200+ million in free agency.  That's not going to happen while JR owns the team.     

There only appears to be 1 potential #1 starter on the FA market this off season. If we are getting one it would likely have to be via trade.

[gusguyman]

Grandal hasn't been amazing but his 106 wrc+ is enough that you are not losing much batting him 2 or 3, especially since the only other L/S hitting option is a seriously struggling Moncada, and I don't think you want to bat 4 or 5 straight righties at the top of the order.

[JuliusO1274]

Yea but McCann has a .420 OBP, does he deserve to keep getting benched in preference for Grandal? White Sox spent a lot on Grandal and just because that they are likely to keep giving him more playing time. Sadly, it seems we spent a lot of money on an area where we already had a great player who wasn't just a fluke that many assumed. I don't expect him to keep a .420 OBP and almost 1.000 OPS but clearly McCann has upped his game since he joined the White Sox.

[Timmy U]

McCann is yet another victim of the Sox and their weird inability to develop ANY left-handed hitting.  Even now, you look in the minors and if Rutherford busts, which is likely, they are not going to produce a lefty major league regular. Meanwhile, Vaughn just adds to what they already do well.  It's why I was hoping they would draft Kelenic instead of Madrigal.  With zero lefties developed that forces the team to roll the bones on Grandal long term and Mazara. As last night and virtually every game v. Cleveland proves, you can't have a lineup of 9 power-hitting righties who all swing at sliders/hard curves out of the zone. Way too easy to dominate.  McCann deserves better, but you gotta have some balance in the lineup.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, JuliusO1274 said:

Yea but McCann has a .420 OBP, does he deserve to keep getting benched in preference for Grandal? White Sox spent a lot on Grandal and just because that they are likely to keep giving him more playing time. Sadly, it seems we spent a lot of money on an area where we already had a great player who wasn't just a fluke that many assumed. I don't expect him to keep a .420 OBP and almost 1.000 OPS but clearly McCann has upped his game since he joined the White Sox.

I like James McCann.  He's turned himself into a quality mlb starting catcher.  

Chances are, he would get very exposed playing everday, just like he did last year.

1st half stat 2019 line: .316/.371/.502

2nd half 2019 stat line: .226/.281/.413

career stat line: .250/.301/.391

Chances are, if you play McCann everyday, you're getting a .250/.300/.400 type hitter.  This is not the type of hitter that makes you pass on 3.5-5 fWAR catcher in Grandal, who also happens to fill two of the other main weaknesses of the ball club (strong OBP and lineup balance).  

Grandal will be fine, but people need to stop expecting a .300 hitter.  He is a career .240 hitter.  But he gets on base 35% of the time, which this lineup sorely needs.  He's not really a middle of the order bopper though, and it would help if RR moved him down.  

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Timmy U said:

McCann is yet another victim of the Sox and their weird inability to develop ANY left-handed hitting.  Even now, you look in the minors and if Rutherford busts, which is likely, they are not going to produce a lefty major league regular. Meanwhile, Vaughn just adds to what they already do well.  It's why I was hoping they would draft Kelenic instead of Madrigal.  With zero lefties developed that forces the team to roll the bones on Grandal long term and Mazara. As last night and virtually every game v. Cleveland proves, you can't have a lineup of 9 power-hitting righties who all swing at sliders/hard curves out of the zone. Way too easy to dominate.  McCann deserves better, but you gotta have some balance in the lineup.

I can promise you Mazara will not be on this roster in 2021.  He was a complete roll of the dice for 2020.  Its obvious that's failed.  They will go in a different direction in 2021.  

[Balta1701]

31 minutes ago, supernuke said:

There only appears to be 1 potential #1 starter on the FA market this off season. If we are getting one it would likely have to be via trade.

If I was an alternate GM, after this messed up year, opt outs, surgeries, people having the virus and having unknown heart damage, no experience against other teams in the minors and no video on people, I would be very unlikely to think about a deal for a DeGrom quality starter for any package of Kopech, Vaughn, and Dunning.

Are there any Verlander or Greinke types on high dollar contracts that some team would be motivated to move? I can’t think of any but might be forgetting someone.

Anyway, moral of this story is that if you want any extra top of the rotation starters any time soon, they probably have to be named Kopech, Cease, or Dunning. (Or Lopez but seems unlikely).

Unless you’re willing to talk about Robert.

[Timmy U]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

I can promise you Mazara will not be on this roster in 2021.  He was a complete roll of the dice for 2020.  Its obvious that's failed.  They will go in a different direction in 2021.  

Oh, I agree. Note that I said they signed Grandal long-term and then threw in Mazara.  Next year, yet again, they're going to roll the bones on someone else outside of their system. Joc Pederson?  It's weird, but the White Sox have a program that reallly values righthand power (or undervalues lefties entirely). So they consistently build teams that look like this -- see, Konerko, Mags, Carlos, and Crede -- while Cleveland has always valued switch-hitters and lefties.  Until they make some fundamental changes in their approach to what they think wins games, I think you're looking at a ton of righties coming up through the system and then trying to find lineup balance from other people's rejects.  So far in the last, what, 10 years the results have been atrocious.  When you look at Dunn, LaRoche, Alonso, and Mazara, Nomar isn't even the worst case scenario. 

I want them to change their draft philosophy.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, supernuke said:

I don't hate Grandal but I think he was poor allocation of funds. We already had a good, maybe not great but good catcher on the team and several other holes on the team that should have been a higher priority in my opinion. The way he is being used makes it more frustrating. Move him down in the order and maybe some of this goes away.   

Yep. Exactly where I’ve been on this topic since last winter.

[Balta1701]

17 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Oh, I agree. Note that I said they signed Grandal long-term and then threw in Mazara.  Next year, yet again, they're going to roll the bones on someone else outside of their system. Joc Pederson?  It's weird, but the White Sox have a program that reallly values righthand power (or undervalues lefties entirely). So they consistently build teams that look like this -- see, Konerko, Mags, Carlos, and Crede -- while Cleveland has always valued switch-hitters and lefties.  Until they make some fundamental changes in their approach to what they think wins games, I think you're looking at a ton of righties coming up through the system and then trying to find lineup balance from other people's rejects.  So far in the last, what, 10 years the results have been atrocious.  When you look at Dunn, LaRoche, Alonso, and Mazara, Nomar isn't even the worst case scenario. 

I want them to change their draft philosophy.

Even teams that are drafting really well wind up having some random positions they can’t fill. In the last 2 years the Dodgers have signed pollock and traded for and signed Betts. The Astros traded for their top 3 pitchers of the last 3 seasons.

[supernuke]

7 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I like James McCann.  He's turned himself into a quality mlb starting catcher.  

Chances are, he would get very exposed playing everday, just like he did last year.

1st half stat 2019 line: .316/.371/.502

2nd half 2019 stat line: .226/.281/.413

career stat line: .250/.301/.391

Chances are, if you play McCann everyday, you're getting a .250/.300/.400 type hitter.  This is not the type of hitter that makes you pass on 3.5-5 fWAR catcher in Grandal, who also happens to fill two of the other main weaknesses of the ball club (strong OBP and lineup balance).  

Grandal will be fine, but people need to stop expecting a .300 hitter.  He is a career .240 hitter.  But he gets on base 35% of the time, which this lineup sorely needs.  He's not really a middle of the order bopper though, and it would help if RR moved him down.  

I think you greatly underestimate James McCann. I see a guy who worked hard to change his approach at the plate and became a much better hitter because of it. He is completely changed form the hitter he was in Detroit. I think you over simplify things by showing the first half and second half numbers from last year. Going month by month you get:

April  .357/.400/.536

May .338./372/.514

June .275/.363.500

July  .173/.212/.309

Aug .274/.330/.476

Sept .250/.314/.453

One horrible month of July is really dragging down the second half numbers. it looks to me like the pitchers finally made an adjustment to him in July and he had to adjust against that. He may not put up those first half stats over a full season but I believe he is clearly much better than a .250/.300/.400 hitter. 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

6 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

Grandal is underperforming a little but he still has a quite solid season. Sure you would want him a bit better and he will likely get there but he always was a streaky hitter who strikes out and gets a lot of his value by walks.

He is only hitting 226 but has a 345 obp and a solid 106 wRC+. He also has 0.7 war which is a 3 war full season pace.

That is not quite what you hoped for but he definitely isn't a black hole and only should get better.

 

Despite his solid wRC+ it’s disingenuous to say his hitting is only down a little. His OPS of  .732 is well below what he did last season and also quite a bit lower than his career .792 OPS. His BABIP is actually higher than his career average and strikeout rate is way up. So he hasn’t been unlucky to this point. If anything he’s been lucky to hold his current OPS.

Also, not sure how his fWAR is holding up because his framing has been ordinary this season.

It’s ok to admit he’s been a disappointment so far this season. I hope he turns it on soon in this weird season because historically he has performed poorly late in the regular season and terribly in the postseason.

[ChiSox59]

20 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Oh, I agree. Note that I said they signed Grandal long-term and then threw in Mazara.  Next year, yet again, they're going to roll the bones on someone else outside of their system. Joc Pederson?  It's weird, but the White Sox have a program that reallly values righthand power (or undervalues lefties entirely). So they consistently build teams that look like this -- see, Konerko, Mags, Carlos, and Crede -- while Cleveland has always valued switch-hitters and lefties.  Until they make some fundamental changes in their approach to what they think wins games, I think you're looking at a ton of righties coming up through the system and then trying to find lineup balance from other people's rejects.  So far in the last, what, 10 years the results have been atrocious.  When you look at Dunn, LaRoche, Alonso, and Mazara, Nomar isn't even the worst case scenario. 

I want them to change their draft philosophy.

Yeah, unfortunately the RF options in next year's FA suck.  Joc would be fine one year stop gap, but he doens't get me excited.  Maybe Brantley, but he can't really play RF anymore.   I hope they take a swing at Springer, but certainly don't expect him to sign here.  Outside of that, I am going after someone via trade.  Nimmo is my guy, but probably won't happen.  

Nomar has been bad, and perhaps unsurprisingly so.  But he cost very little to acquire, costs very little in terms of 2020 salary, and can be easily non-tendered this offseason.  I think the thought process behind acquiring Mazara was fine - but to me - that's more a move you make in February when all other options have failed, as opposed to an early December move.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

3 minutes ago, supernuke said:

I think you greatly underestimate James McCann. I see a guy who worked hard to change his approach at the plate and became a much better hitter because of it. He is completely changed form the hitter he was in Detroit. I think you over simplify things by showing the first half and second half numbers from last year. Going month by month you get:

April  .357/.400/.536

May .338./372/.514

June .275/.363.500

July  .173/.212/.309

Aug .274/.330/.476

Sept .250/.314/.453

One horrible month of July is really dragging down the second half numbers. it looks to me like the pitchers finally made an adjustment to him in July and he had to adjust against that. He may not put up those first half stats over a full season but I believe he is clearly much better than a .250/.300/.400 hitter. 

A ~.800 OPS in August/September shouldn’t be discounted. That’s solid for a starting catcher late in the regular season. In summary, he had a bad July. 

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, supernuke said:

I think you greatly underestimate James McCann. I see a guy who worked hard to change his approach at the plate and became a much better hitter because of it. He is completely changed form the hitter he was in Detroit. I think you over simplify things by showing the first half and second half numbers from last year. Going month by month you get:

April  .357/.400/.536

May .338./372/.514

June .275/.363.500

July  .173/.212/.309

Aug .274/.330/.476

Sept .250/.314/.453

One horrible month of July is really dragging down the second half numbers. it looks to me like the pitchers finally made an adjustment to him in July and he had to adjust against that. He may not put up those first half stats over a full season but I believe he is clearly much better than a .250/.300/.400 hitter. 

I am not undervaluing McCann.  He's a good ballplayer and I agree he's not the same guy he was in Detroit.  He's also nowhere near as good as Grandal, nor is he anywhere near as good of a fit for this roster as Grandal.  

Again, I like James.  I hope he decides to stick around, but I find it incredibly hard to believe he's going to sign with a team that has one of the best 2 catchers in baseball over looking for an everyday opportunity elsewhere.  

[bmags]

I'm not sure "failed to develop LH hitting" is a thing. For whatever reason we just haven't ended up with many LH hitters, it's not like it's much of a development problem. 

[Jose Abreu]

19 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Despite his solid wRC+ it’s disingenuous to say his hitting is only down a little. His OPS of  .732 is well below what he did last season and also quite a bit lower than his career .792 OPS.

I wouldn't say that's disingenuous. If anything, I'd argue using OPS is disingenuous because offense is so down across the league this year, and wRC+ accounts for that. Last I checked, the league average OPS is down 18 points this year

[bmags]

9 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yeah, unfortunately the RF options in next year's FA suck.  Joc would be fine one year stop gap, but he doens't get me excited.  Maybe Brantley, but he can't really play RF anymore.   I hope they take a swing at Springer, but certainly don't expect him to sign here.  Outside of that, I am going after someone via trade.  Nimmo is my guy, but probably won't happen.  

Nomar has been bad, and perhaps unsurprisingly so.  But he cost very little to acquire, costs very little in terms of 2020 salary, and can be easily non-tendered this offseason.  I think the thought process behind acquiring Mazara was fine - but to me - that's more a move you make in February when all other options have failed, as opposed to an early December move.

there may be some interesting guys whose options aren't picked up, it's going to be a weird year. But Josh Reddick may not be worst idea - mixing up lineup with a lower K guy, but obviously limited ceiling.

but also possible you look at an adam duvall with pache and waters coming up.

The year after has a lot of interesting guys, might be worth a stopgap.

[Timmy U]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

I'm not sure "failed to develop LH hitting" is a thing. For whatever reason we just haven't ended up with many LH hitters, it's not like it's much of a development problem. 

Okay, how about "passed on LH hitting HS hitters like Kelenic, Alek Thomas, Corbin Carroll, and CJ Abrams for physically maxed out right-handed hitting players."  Look at who Cleveland drafts. They consistently value or overvalue switch-hitters and lefties.  5 of their top 10 position players hit left or switch, including 3 of their top 4.  No Sox top 10 prospects hits lefty. Their top 3 lefty hitters are Sheets, Gonzalez and Rutherford.  I don't see any impact here. Beyond them, there's nothing. Oscar Colas would instantly become their best lefthanded prospect, even if he's a DH.  Gotta value something to get it.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Timmy U said:

Okay, how about "passed on LH hitting HS hitters like Kelenic, Alek Thomas, Corbin Carroll, and CJ Abrams for physically maxed out right-handed hitting players."  Look at who Cleveland drafts. They consistently value or overvalue switch-hitters and lefties.  5 of their top 10 position players hit left or switch, including 3 of their top 4.  No Sox top 10 prospects hits lefty. Their top 3 lefty hitters are Sheets, Gonzalez and Rutherford.  I don't see any impact here. Beyond them, there's nothing. Oscar Colas would instantly become their best lefthanded prospect, even if he's a DH.  Gotta value something to get it.

Cleveland's offense is like 27th.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

I posted this in the Grandal signing thread (if I remember correctly) but being a Dodgers fan I got to watch Grandal play a lot. While analytics love his defense, the eyes don't. He's slow to react side to side. He's slow to react on balls in front of the plate. He's very much a station to station baserunner.

We as Sox fans might have expectations of the guy based on reputation and analytics, and not by watching him play. Which is fine. If Lightning McCann wasn't on this team, I am sure we'd all love the guy. 

Wait until we're int he playoffs and he's the guy in the pressure at-bat. That's when he shines.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

4 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I wouldn't say that's disingenuous. If anything, I'd argue using OPS is disingenuous because offense is so down across the league this year, and wRC+ accounts for that. Last I checked, the league average OPS is down 18 points this year

Grandal’s OPS is down much more than that from last season.

[supernuke]

25 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I am not undervaluing McCann.  He's a good ballplayer and I agree he's not the same guy he was in Detroit.  He's also nowhere near as good as Grandal, nor is he anywhere near as good of a fit for this roster as Grandal.  

Again, I like James.  I hope he decides to stick around, but I find it incredibly hard to believe he's going to sign with a team that has one of the best 2 catchers in baseball over looking for an everyday opportunity elsewhere.  

I am sure McCann won't be here next year, he would be foolish to not find a job as a starter. The only slim possibility is that the Bromance with Giolito is so strong that he can't tear himself away. 

I am not deluded enough to think that Grandal is bad, I just don't think that spending the money to upgrade from a B to an A+ made sense when there are still D's on the roster. It also becomes more frustrating when in an admittedly SSS we haven't seen that A+ player. Some articles I have read have indicated that framing abilities decline rapidly at around age 31, if the elite framing disappears is Grandal still a top 2 catcher?

Edited September 3, 2020 by supernuke