The grandal hate is vastly overblown

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

I posted this in the Grandal signing thread (if I remember correctly) but being a Dodgers fan I got to watch Grandal play a lot. While analytics love his defense, the eyes don't. He's slow to react side to side. He's slow to react on balls in front of the plate. He's very much a station to station baserunner.

We as Sox fans might have expectations of the guy based on reputation and analytics, and not by watching him play. Which is fine. If Lightning McCann wasn't on this team, I am sure we'd all love the guy. 

Wait until we're int he playoffs and he's the guy in the pressure at-bat. That's when he shines.

That’s the problem. I think most of his supporters like him because of his fWAR and not because they’ve watched him play much in the past. Also why I’ve argued that his value is severely overrated by fWAR.

The Dodgers aren’t dumb. Think they’d let a true 5 WAR player walk for the money Grandal got? It’s a rhetorical question.

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

That’s the problem. I think most of his supporters like him because of his fWAR and not because they’ve watched him play much in the past. Also why I’ve argued that his value is severely overrated by fWAR.

The Dodgers aren’t dumb. Think they’d let a true 5 WAR player walk for the money Grandal got? It’s a rhetorical question.

Indeed. But they also have/had a whole bunch of their core going into arbitration this offseason and next. Grandal wasn't going to get a payday from them.

[southsider2k5]

34 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Despite his solid wRC+ it’s disingenuous to say his hitting is only down a little. His OPS of  .732 is well below what he did last season and also quite a bit lower than his career .792 OPS. His BABIP is actually higher than his career average and strikeout rate is way up. So he hasn’t been unlucky to this point. If anything he’s been lucky to hold his current OPS.

Also, not sure how his fWAR is holding up because his framing has been ordinary this season.

It’s ok to admit he’s been a disappointment so far this season. I hope he turns it on soon in this weird season because historically he has performed poorly late in the regular season and terribly in the postseason.

He's been unlucky in that he has gotten a TON of bad strikes called against him.  That doesn't show up in BABiP

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

McCann is yet another victim of the Sox and their weird inability to develop ANY left-handed hitting.  Even now, you look in the minors and if Rutherford busts, which is likely, they are not going to produce a lefty major league regular. Meanwhile, Vaughn just adds to what they already do well.  It's why I was hoping they would draft Kelenic instead of Madrigal.  With zero lefties developed that forces the team to roll the bones on Grandal long term and Mazara. As last night and virtually every game v. Cleveland proves, you can't have a lineup of 9 power-hitting righties who all swing at sliders/hard curves out of the zone. Way too easy to dominate.  McCann deserves better, but you gotta have some balance in the lineup.

This is impressive for its mental gymnastics.  The Sox pick up McCann off of the scrap heap, turn him into an All-Star catcher, but they still have the problem.

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Okay, how about "passed on LH hitting HS hitters like Kelenic, Alek Thomas, Corbin Carroll, and CJ Abrams for physically maxed out right-handed hitting players."  Look at who Cleveland drafts. They consistently value or overvalue switch-hitters and lefties.  5 of their top 10 position players hit left or switch, including 3 of their top 4.  No Sox top 10 prospects hits lefty. Their top 3 lefty hitters are Sheets, Gonzalez and Rutherford.  I don't see any impact here. Beyond them, there's nothing. Oscar Colas would instantly become their best lefthanded prospect, even if he's a DH.  Gotta value something to get it.

We are supposed to envy one of the worst offenses in baseball?   What?

[Timmy U]

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This is impressive for its mental gymnastics.  The Sox pick up McCann off of the scrap heap, turn him into an All-Star catcher, but they still have the problem.

The mental gymnastics are what exactly? My point is that, if the Sox had another middle of the order lefty hitter, they likely wouldn't have signed Grandal, and would have been much more likely to extend McCann. But, because they didn't, Grandal's value as a switch-hitter was too much for them to pass up.  I really like McCann.  But he'd be a better fit on this team if, for instance, instead of taking Alonso's salary on from Cleveland, they had taken Carlos Santana's salary on from the Phillies.  The Sox bad luck/incompetence signing/developing lefthanded hitting obviously played a role in their preference for Grandal over McCann. Do you disagree?

[Quin]

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

We are supposed to envy one of the worst offenses in baseball?   What?

One of the worst left-handed offenses in baseball.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

The mental gymnastics are what exactly? My point is that, if the Sox had another middle of the order lefty hitter, they likely wouldn't have signed Grandal, and would have been much more likely to extend McCann. But, because they didn't, Grandal's value as a switch-hitter was too much for them to pass up.  I really like McCann.  But he'd be a better fit on this team if, for instance, instead of taking Alonso's salary on from Cleveland, they had taken Carlos Santana's salary on from the Phillies.  The Sox bad luck/incompetence signing/developing lefthanded hitting obviously played a role in their preference for Grandal over McCann. Do you disagree?

This isn't going to lead to Grady Sizemore posts is it?

[Timmy U]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

We are supposed to envy one of the worst offenses in baseball?   What?

I'm talking long-term philosophy.  Feel free to ignore the last 15 years, but players like Brantley, Santana, Lindor, Ramirez, etc have helped them to a substantially better record than the Sox while both front offices have remained relatively stable. Look at which front office is consistently raided for talent and which one isn't. Cleveland has had a consistently better program than the White Sox.  I hope it's going to change, but I don't think it's luck.

[Timmy U]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

This isn't going to lead to Grady Sizemore posts is it?

All I'm saying is you cannot separate the Grandal/McCann discussion from the handedness of the players and the Sox overall righthanded hitting lineup.  I don't really think it's news that they have struggled to find lefty thump for like 20 years or more.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Timmy U said:

I'm talking long-term philosophy.  Feel free to ignore the last 15 years, but players like Brantley, Santana, Lindor, Ramirez, etc have helped them to a substantially better record than the Sox while both front offices have remained relatively stable. Look at which front office is consistently raided for talent and which one isn't. Cleveland has had a consistently better program than the White Sox.  I hope it's going to change, but I don't think it's luck.

Is this where we are pretending that no one had interest in hiring the Sox front office people, or that their people have been largely turned over underneath of Hahn?  Do we remember how many teams tried to hire Rick Hahn away before he was promoted to GM?  That he was in the running with the Mets and Cardinals before dropping out?  Or that the Sox actually blocked Kenny Williams from interviewing with Toronto for a promotion?

[Timmy U]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

Is this where we are pretending that no one had interest in hiring the Sox front office people, or that their people have been largely turned over underneath of Hahn?  Do we remember how many teams tried to hire Rick Hahn away before he was promoted to GM?  That he was in the running with the Mets and Cardinals before dropping out?  Or that the Sox actually blocked Kenny Williams from interviewing with Toronto for a promotion?

I like Rick Hahn. I'm not one of the "fire Kenny" brigade, but c'mon.  Toronto and Minnesota are both basically colonies of the Cleveland front office.  The Sox do not have an elite front office that other teams are raiding.  Maybe they will after the rebuild is over, but who is the last Sox coach or exec to leave for another team?  There has to be a reason that they lost consistently for 10 years.  Especially in the Central.  Is it entirely bad luck?

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Timmy U said:

I like Rick Hahn. I'm not one of the "fire Kenny" brigade, but c'mon.  Toronto and Minnesota are both basically colonies of the Cleveland front office.  The Sox do not have an elite front office that other teams are raiding.  Maybe they will after the rebuild is over, but who is the last Sox coach or exec to leave for another team?  There has to be a reason that they lost consistently for 10 years.  Especially in the Central.  Is it entirely bad luck?

Toronto was public turned down by Jerry when then asked to interview Kenny Williams to be President of their organization.

[Kyyle23]

9 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

This isn't going to lead to Grady Sizemore posts is it?

We can only handle so much of that

[Dick Allen]

A lot of Soxtalk GM's would never have signed McCann in the first place.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

A lot of Soxtalk GM's would never have signed McCann in the first place.

 

 

Wow, that is pretty impressive.

[Timmy U]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

Toronto was public turned down by Jerry when then asked to interview Kenny Williams to be President of their organization.

Yes, in 2015.  So 5 years ago was the last attempt to raid the team.  That job eventually went to Mark Shapiro and after 2016 Derek Falvey left Cleveland to run the Twins, which seems to have worked out pretty well for them.  So, we'll see. Maybe some of the restructuring of the development staff and a successful rebuild will make the Sox a highly-respected org like Cleveland or Tampa.  Don't see it yet, though.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

Yes, in 2015.  So 5 years ago was the last attempt to raid the team.  That job eventually went to Mark Shapiro and after 2016 Derek Falvey left Cleveland to run the Twins, which seems to have worked out pretty well for them.  So, we'll see. Maybe some of the restructuring of the development staff and a successful rebuild will make the Sox a highly-respected org like Cleveland or Tampa.  Don't see it yet, though.

So the parameters are now for raiding management, but 15 years ago for how good Cleveland's offensive development is.  Got it.

[ChiSox59]

37 minutes ago, supernuke said:

I am sure McCann won't be here next year, he would be foolish to not find a job as a starter. The only slim possibility is that the Bromance with Giolito is so strong that he can't tear himself away. 

I am not deluded enough to think that Grandal is bad, I just don't think that spending the money to upgrade from a B to an A+ made sense when there are still D's on the roster. It also becomes more frustrating when in an admittedly SSS we haven't seen that A+ player. Some articles I have read have indicated that framing abilities decline rapidly at around age 31, if the elite framing disappears is Grandal still a top 2 catcher?

That's fair - we definitely have not gotten the A version of Grandal.  I think the Grandal we've gotten to date is still a top 3-5 catcher in the game over the course of an 162 game season. 

I am not at all concerned about Grandal long term. He'll be fine.  Getting a 3-4 fWAR catcher is huge.  I agree RF is a huge gap, but I don't think any of the options last offseaon were good long term fits, especially at the expense of Grandal.  

[mqr]

19 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I'm talking long-term philosophy.  Feel free to ignore the last 15 years, but players like Brantley, Santana, Lindor, Ramirez, etc have helped them to a substantially better record than the Sox while both front offices have remained relatively stable. Look at which front office is consistently raided for talent and which one isn't. Cleveland has had a consistently better program than the White Sox.  I hope it's going to change, but I don't think it's luck.

When has Cleveland won games with their offense? They have been above average twice in the last decade. This current White Sox lineup is 10 times better than anything Cleveland has put on the field. 

[Bob Sacamano]

14 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

A lot of Soxtalk GM's would never have signed McCann in the first place.

 

 

Wow. Lots of Seby love in that thread lol

[mqr]

16 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

A lot of Soxtalk GM's would never have signed McCann in the first place.

 

 

I forgot how butt hurt some of ya'll were about Narvaez

[JuliusO1274]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

I like James McCann.  He's turned himself into a quality mlb starting catcher.  

Chances are, he would get very exposed playing everday, just like he did last year.

1st half stat 2019 line: .316/.371/.502

2nd half 2019 stat line: .226/.281/.413

career stat line: .250/.301/.391

Chances are, if you play McCann everyday, you're getting a .250/.300/.400 type hitter.  This is not the type of hitter that makes you pass on 3.5-5 fWAR catcher in Grandal, who also happens to fill two of the other main weaknesses of the ball club (strong OBP and lineup balance).  

Grandal will be fine, but people need to stop expecting a .300 hitter.  He is a career .240 hitter.  But he gets on base 35% of the time, which this lineup sorely needs.  He's not really a middle of the order bopper though, and it would help if RR moved him down.  

People said this same thing last year and now he has been doing even better. I don't care what his career numbers are, I look at what he has been doing with the White Sox. The numbers McCann has been putting up with the Sox he has no history of doing with Detroit. If his first half last season was just a fluke then he wouldn't be doing so good this year. I could just as easily say his 2nd half numbers last year are the fluke and his great hitting is the real McCann because that is what he has been doing the majority of the time he has gotten to play. By focusing on his 2nd half last year you erase what he has been doing the majority of the time he has been playing with the White Sox. 

[Timmy U]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So the parameters are now for raiding management, but 15 years ago for how good Cleveland's offensive development is.  Got it.

No. I'm saying that two organizations have chosen execs from Cleveland in the last 5 years, and I'll grant you that one of them was maybe the second choice.  Do you honestly believe the White Sox front office is the envy of the baseball world?  If you do, that's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. I don't believe that's the case.

I believe the strength of our franchise is the integrity shown by Reinsdorf et al in the community, the character of the young men they bring into the organization, and their ability to lock up young players to team friendly deals. As far as analytics, player development, and maximizing wins out of the teams they construct, they have not excelled the way teams like the Indians, and Rays have. That latter skillset seems to be more valued, hence you see teams like the Dodgers and Red Sox raiding the Rays and the Twins and Jays raiding the Indians.

My main point throughout has been, and I'll say it again: the White Sox have not done a good job developing/acquiring lefthanded hitting and that definitely played a role in them choosing signing Grandal over extending McCann.  

The number of people disputing that has surprised me, so I've probably been too adamant in my criticism of the F.O.

[tray]

It is a win-win to have them both on a team that is and will be in the win now mode for the next few years. Spend the money and sign up McCann.  Don't do anything stupid like trying to fix something that isn't broken.