The grandal hate is vastly overblown

[Bob Sacamano]

2 minutes ago, tray said:

It is a win-win to have them both on a team that is and will be in the win now mode for the next few years. Spend the money and sign up McCann.  Don't do anything stupid like trying to fix something that isn't broken.

Pour like $25-28ish mill into one position?

[Quin]

38 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

A lot of Soxtalk GM's would never have signed McCann in the first place.

 

 

You see, that's before the Sox helped him become an All-Star

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Timmy U said:

No. I'm saying that two organizations have chosen execs from Cleveland in the last 5 years, and I'll grant you that one of them was maybe the second choice.  Do you honestly believe the White Sox front office is the envy of the baseball world?  If you do, that's fine. You're welcome to your opinion. I don't believe that's the case.

I believe the strength of our franchise is the integrity shown by Reinsdorf et al in the community, the character of the young men they bring into the organization, and their ability to lock up young players to team friendly deals. As far as analytics, player development, and maximizing wins out of the teams they construct, they have not excelled the way teams like the Indians, and Rays have. That latter skillset seems to be more valued, hence you see teams like the Dodgers and Red Sox raiding the Rays and the Twins and Jays raiding the Indians.

My main point throughout has been, and I'll say it again: the White Sox have not done a good job developing/acquiring lefthanded hitting and that definitely played a role in them choosing signing Grandal over extending McCann.  

The number of people disputing that has surprised me, so I've probably been too adamant in my criticism of the F.O.

I am flat out saying that you are absolutely moving the goalposts around to fit your argument, which is also changing from post to post.   One minute you are using 15 years ago with Cleveland to justify one thing, but then 5 years ago is too much when it doesn't fit what you want it to fit.

In recent years the White Sox have turned over both their drafting, development, scouting, and analytics people.  In the longer terms teams have absolutely tried to hire way Sox personnel.

The hyper focus on ONE small piece of the scouting/drafting/development ladder doesn't really disqualify any of the above.  Back to McCann, the reason they didn't look to resign him long term was that there was a real chance that last year was a fluke, including his second half fade as evidence.  At worse, they have made McCann an extremely rich man this offseason, by turning his career around for someone else to pay him lots of money. 

When you go back and look at player acquisition, are you telling me that they should have turned down Eloy because he was right handed, or not signed Robert because he wasn't a switch hitter?  Should they have passed on Andrew Vaughn even if they felt he was the best available pick at #3 because he wasn't a lefty? 

[mqr]

Sox fans tendency to be incredibly jealous of the Indians and Twins will never cease to amaze me. 

[Quin]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am flat out saying that you are absolutely moving the goalposts around to fit your argument, which is also changing from post to post.   One minute you are using 15 years ago with Cleveland to justify one thing, but then 5 years ago is too much when it doesn't fit what you want it to fit.

In recent years the White Sox have turned over both their drafting, development, scouting, and analytics people.  In the longer terms teams have absolutely tried to hire way Sox personnel.

The hyper focus on ONE small piece of the scouting/drafting/development ladder doesn't really disqualify any of the above.  Back to McCann, the reason they didn't look to resign him long term was that there was a real chance that last year was a fluke, including his second half fade as evidence.  At worse, they have made McCann an extremely rich man this offseason, by turning his career around for someone else to pay him lots of money. 

When you go back and look at player acquisition, are you telling me that they should have turned down Eloy because he was right handed, or not signed Robert because he wasn't a switch hitter?  Should they have passed on Andrew Vaughn even if they felt he was the best available pick at #3 because he wasn't a lefty? 

Sox pass on Vaughn

Marcus Semien compliments Vaughn, says "I wish I could hit like him"

Soxtalk burns roasts the pick of CJ Abrams forever, because we already have Tim Anderson and CJ Abrams doesn't fit the current window.

[Vulture]

21 minutes ago, Tony said:

Good lord am I happy Moan4Yoan is no longer here. 

Are you sure he didn't change to another similarly constructed username?

[Vulture]

24 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

Pour like $25-28ish mill into one position?

That would be covering two positions. No way they resign McCann unless they plan on the catchers covering the bulk of the DH duties.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Vulture said:

That would be covering two positions. No way they resign McCann unless they plan on the catchers covering the bulk of the DH duties.

They aren't blocked Andrew Vaughn to resign James McCann.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Charlie Haeger's Knuckles said:

Indeed. But they also have/had a whole bunch of their core going into arbitration this offseason and next. Grandal wasn't going to get a payday from them.

They found enough loose change to pay Betts

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

A lot of Soxtalk GM's would never have signed McCann in the first place.

 

 

At least ChiSox59 has been consistent in his opinion of McCann and Grandal. He’s been dreaming about Grandal for two years.

[greg775]

I like Grandal. I wouldn't give up on him. He still could emerge as a hero on a one or two year WS title team. I'd prefer the combo of Grandal-Collins in the future. McCann deserves to start somewhere so I'd let him walk and I like Collins too. Strangely, the Sox, which have had good starting pitching historically, need a lotta help there, not in the everyday lineup. Grandal is fine.

Edited September 3, 2020 by greg775

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, Tony said:

Good lord am I happy Moan4Yoan is no longer here. 

Hah, yeah - once the Sox got good he bounced?  Confirmed troll?  

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

At least ChiSox59 has been consistent in his opinion of McCann and Grandal. He’s been dreaming about Grandal for two years.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how good of a fit Grandal is for this roster with all the right handed free swingers.

I hate when people think my love for Grandal somehow means I hate McCann.  McCann has been an absolute steal for the Sox and a hell of find.  I don't think anybody - Sox included - thought he'd turn out this well.  I just don't think McCann should be playing over Grandal if it means Grandal to the bench.  

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

38 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how good of a fit Grandal is for this roster with all the right handed free swingers.

I hate when people think my love for Grandal somehow means I hate McCann.  McCann has been an absolute steal for the Sox and a hell of find.  I don't think anybody - Sox included - thought he'd turn out this well.  I just don't think McCann should be playing over Grandal if it means Grandal to the bench.  

It isn’t a question of McCann vs Grandal (this year at least). It’s a question of McCann/Grandal vs EE.

[ChiSox59]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

It isn’t a question of McCann vs Grandal (this year at least). It’s a question of McCann/Grandal vs EE.

At this point, when Grandal isn't catching he should be at 1B and DH with Abreu doing the other.

When McCann isn't catching, I wish they'd mix him in at DH/1B....and gasp....RF. 

Won't argue with you there.  

[SCCWS]

42 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how good of a fit Grandal is for this roster with all the right handed free swingers.

I hate when people think my love for Grandal somehow means I hate McCann.  McCann has been an absolute steal for the Sox and a hell of find.  I don't think anybody - Sox included - thought he'd turn out this well.  I just don't think McCann should be playing over Grandal if it means Grandal to the bench.  

Grandal should not be hitting 3rd, Robert should. He is struggling w the bat and he strikes out at a high %. The lefty/righty lineup construction does not work if the lefty is struggling while Robert is exploding. 

[Dominikk85]

3 hours ago, Quin said:

Sox pass on Vaughn

Marcus Semien compliments Vaughn, says "I wish I could hit like him"

Soxtalk burns roasts the pick of CJ Abrams forever, because we already have Tim Anderson and CJ Abrams doesn't fit the current window.

We simply don't know it yet. Maybe Abrams becomes Lindor and vaughn becomes justin Smoak. Or vaughn becomes Goldschmidt and Abrams becomes tim beckham. 

 

[gusguyman]

6 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Despite his solid wRC+ it’s disingenuous to say his hitting is only down a little. His OPS of  .732 is well below what he did last season and also quite a bit lower than his career .792 OPS. His BABIP is actually higher than his career average and strikeout rate is way up. So he hasn’t been unlucky to this point. If anything he’s been lucky to hold his current OPS.

Also, not sure how his fWAR is holding up because his framing has been ordinary this season.

It’s ok to admit he’s been a disappointment so far this season. I hope he turns it on soon in this weird season because historically he has performed poorly late in the regular season and terribly in the postseason.

Not sure whose framing stat you were checking (since there are a few out there now), but fangraphs has Grandal tied for 4th in their framing stat (FRM). FWIW rSZ is the framing stat from SIS, and they actually have Grandal 1st in the league right now.

Grandal's fWAR would be even higher, in fact, if he wasn't getting demolished in rCERA right now, and I think he has gotten pretty unlucky there.

[Dominikk85]

13 hours ago, supernuke said:

I am sure McCann won't be here next year, he would be foolish to not find a job as a starter. The only slim possibility is that the Bromance with Giolito is so strong that he can't tear himself away. 

I am not deluded enough to think that Grandal is bad, I just don't think that spending the money to upgrade from a B to an A+ made sense when there are still D's on the roster. It also becomes more frustrating when in an admittedly SSS we haven't seen that A+ player. Some articles I have read have indicated that framing abilities decline rapidly at around age 31, if the elite framing disappears is Grandal still a top 2 catcher?

Yeah if grandal becomes worse at catching and hitting he is no longer a top2 catcher:).

 

[Dominikk85]

7 hours ago, gusguyman said:

Not sure whose framing stat you were checking (since there are a few out there now), but fangraphs has Grandal tied for 4th in their framing stat (FRM). FWIW rSZ is the framing stat from SIS, and they actually have Grandal 1st in the league right now.

Grandal's fWAR would be even higher, in fact, if he wasn't getting demolished in rCERA right now, and I think he has gotten pretty unlucky there.

It seems that that outrageous framing by contreras is really paying off. It looks crazy but it seems that way (starting glove a foot outside the zone and the move it in when catching) is the way to go. Good job by cubs coaching as he used to be one of the worst framers in the game.

[Sarava]

17 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Again, i know this will turn into the resign McCann thread, but there is no way the dude is signing on to be a back up for the next three years.  The sooner people give up that idea, the less miserable they will be this winter when he moves on.

Not everything is black or white. They could consider trading Grandal to make room for signing McCann. I'm not saying they should, but it's an option. McCann handles balls in the dirt better. Right now he's hitting better. And there's that Giolito connection, which is the most important part of this.

[Sarava]

16 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I like James McCann.  He's turned himself into a quality mlb starting catcher.  

Chances are, he would get very exposed playing everday, just like he did last year.

1st half stat 2019 line: .316/.371/.502

2nd half 2019 stat line: .226/.281/.413

career stat line: .250/.301/.391

Chances are, if you play McCann everyday, you're getting a .250/.300/.400 type hitter.  This is not the type of hitter that makes you pass on 3.5-5 fWAR catcher in Grandal, who also happens to fill two of the other main weaknesses of the ball club (strong OBP and lineup balance).  

Grandal will be fine, but people need to stop expecting a .300 hitter.  He is a career .240 hitter.  But he gets on base 35% of the time, which this lineup sorely needs.  He's not really a middle of the order bopper though, and it would help if RR moved him down.  

I'm not against Grandal. He's a good overall player. And I really don't don't like the title of this thread. Being a fan of McCann doesn't mean you 'hate' Grandal or don't appreciate him. But like many other catchers who get played heavily, McCann wore down last year. Getting worn down ≠ getting exposed.

[periphery831]

Hey guys, new to the board and love the chat. Not Grandal's biggest fan since the season started but aren't his struggles at the plate due to his lack of seeing pitchers in the AL? 

Give him at least a year. 

[BamaDoc]

31 minutes ago, periphery831 said:

Hey guys, new to the board and love the chat. Not Grandal's biggest fan since the season started but aren't his struggles at the plate due to his lack of seeing pitchers in the AL? 

Give him at least a year. 

He has stated he is big on using video between at bats which has been banned.  The unfamiliarity with pitchers plays into no video.  It will matter different amounts to different players.  Probably hurts the cerebral guys which catchers often are.  He also commented on the catching side that video helps seeing that nights strike zone.

[South Side Hit Men]

It's more realistic assessment of his strengths and weaknesses, and whether the highest contract should have gone to a position that was adequate (offensively / defensively / pitcher management / game prep) paired with Collins as backup, or whether $$$ was better spent in RF and the rotation. Perhaps Grandal can pick up some good work and game preparation habits from McCann and gain the trust of Lucas and others.

Los Angeles and Milwaukee let him walk the past two off-seasons after seeing him first hand. both teams far more successful than Hahn during his tenure. Time will tell whether Grandal can handle full seasons in his 30s over the life of his contract and not suffer a significant decline. Molina and Fisk are anomalies in terms of going strong in their 30s behind the plate. It will take a lot of preparation and conditioning beyond what he has done to date.

Steve Stone spoke to the fact that offensive catchers like Grandal do not come to the table with the same type of preparation and thoughtfulness as catchers like McCann. When the offense drops, to early to tell whether the slugging rate is a small sample or sign of decline, Grandal will need to do things he hasn't done in the past.

Steve Stone compares and contrasts McCann and Grandal at the 20:45 mark on the Lawrence Holmes show.

https://www.radio.com/media/audio-channel/holmes-steve-stone-interview-hour-1

Edited September 4, 2020 by South Side Hit Men