NFL Thread 2020-2021

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, nitetrain8601 said:

I don't know, it's just something I see. Pagano runs a scheme (and has done this since he got to Chicago) as if he doesn't have much defensive talent and safeguards against the homerun plays. He's driving a Maserati as if he's in a Hyundai.

The majority of the Bears success in 2018 on D was that Fangio was great at disguising coverages and that the Bears could reach the QB with rushing 4 or 5 guys at most. 

[nitetrain8601]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

The majority of the Bears success in 2018 on D was that Fangio was great at disguising coverages and that the Bears could reach the QB with rushing 4 or 5 guys at most. 

While true, disguising is a talent as a playcaller. But tonight, Pagano was rushing 3 guys.

[The Beast]

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/bears/ct-cb-chicago-bears-10-thoughts-brad-biggs-20201130-k4qril2s6bdlnkwb4gvuybxpsm-story.html
 

#3 and #5 in Biggs’ column are very good suggestions and questions to consider. These are questions for Pace. The other suggestion is keeping Nagy and letting Pace go and it is a discussion between Brad Biggs and Ross Tucker. I’m on my phone or I would quote it all like how it should be sourced properly.

”1. Do you feel you gave the coaching staff enough to work with on offense to play winning football this season or were there some parts you maybe couldn’t get because of a shortage of draft picks, certainly high ones, and perhaps budget or cap issues?

2. How do you account for the performance of Nick Foles? As the fallback plan for Mitch Trubisky and for a guy that was a Super Bowl MVP, has his play been perhaps the greatest surprise?

3. Your primary moves on the offensive line were signing two veterans to minimum, one-year deals, replacing the position coach and drafting two guys in the seventh round. In retrospect, and I realize there have been some injuries, why hasn’t that worked?

4. What struggles on offense this season did you envision being possible? It can’t be a complete surprise based off of what happened in 2019.

5. What are contributing factors to the precipitous decline of the offense from 2018 that perhaps you could have caught beforehand?“

[bmags]

I think Pace should go. He knew when he traded for Mack that was a boom/bust move. You have to push the chips in and assume the QB is good to take advantage of his contract. But the QB wasn't good, not even enough to re-sign. And you didn't have enough left to buoy him with actual talent, and you kept using the draft to plug specific holes and trading depth for it. It didn't work, and you shouldn't get a second drink from the well even if it's partially luck.

The reason they are even worse off than normal is Pace's failure with first round picks, and his failure to acquire a surplus of picks when the bears were clearly rebuilding. He even left them with less than normal in too many years. His first draft with Kevin White was the perfect example. Yes, him busting makes it worse than normal, but selecting a WR in the first round rather than trading back and collecting picks was silly. 

When you are convincing yourself you are such a good scout that you can pick individual players out of huge draft classes and trading away excess picks - it will eventually catch up to you.

But now we are entering the carousel that can be self fulfilling. Regardless of whether Ted Phillips is a bogeyman, they need stability at the top that knows how to run a football org. I think its right the differences people make about the McCaskeys and the Rooneys. The Rooneys cut their teeth learning how to scout and build football teams. The McCaskey's learned how to sell tickets. The McCaskeys are hands-off, they let the football people run stuff...but they also have no idea what the football people they hired are doing.

I don't know, if I'm the mcCaskey's I fire phillips and try to install Omar Khan as president. Let him hire a GM under him, and re-build the entire org.

[Chisoxfn]

36 minutes ago, bmags said:

I think Pace should go. He knew when he traded for Mack that was a boom/bust move. You have to push the chips in and assume the QB is good to take advantage of his contract. But the QB wasn't good, not even enough to re-sign. And you didn't have enough left to buoy him with actual talent, and you kept using the draft to plug specific holes and trading depth for it. It didn't work, and you shouldn't get a second drink from the well even if it's partially luck.

The reason they are even worse off than normal is Pace's failure with first round picks, and his failure to acquire a surplus of picks when the bears were clearly rebuilding. He even left them with less than normal in too many years. His first draft with Kevin White was the perfect example. Yes, him busting makes it worse than normal, but selecting a WR in the first round rather than trading back and collecting picks was silly. 

When you are convincing yourself you are such a good scout that you can pick individual players out of huge draft classes and trading away excess picks - it will eventually catch up to you.

But now we are entering the carousel that can be self fulfilling. Regardless of whether Ted Phillips is a bogeyman, they need stability at the top that knows how to run a football org. I think its right the differences people make about the McCaskeys and the Rooneys. The Rooneys cut their teeth learning how to scout and build football teams. The McCaskey's learned how to sell tickets. The McCaskeys are hands-off, they let the football people run stuff...but they also have no idea what the football people they hired are doing.

I don't know, if I'm the mcCaskey's I fire phillips and try to install Omar Khan as president. Let him hire a GM under him, and re-build the entire org.

I agree with you - it is pretty apparent there are broader issues and Pace should be shown the door. His misuse of draft capital and salary cap space has been poor and he's had a lot of bad signings. He's had some good ones too, like really good ones like Hicks....but has missed on some high profile picks and while he's done good later in the draft, his misses are just big.  He's a likeable guy and actually done some behind the scenes stuff that makes this franchise better for the long haul...but I don't know that you can stick with him another year.  

With Nagy - I've been on the bandwagon to move away from him, mainly because he clearly isn't the offensive genius everyone thought he was when they hired him, but he also has been saddled with some poor parts and I have no idea how much that is on himself for scounting the wrong guys or on Pace. What I really don't know is did both sides just completely whiff on the offense the past number of years or was one side being too heavily influenced by the other (i.e., Pace bought what Nagy was selling and figured they could do it or was Nagy more of a I'll be rah rah about whomever you give me, you just give me some of these pieces, but deep down he was like, oh boy, Montgomery isn't good or Anthony Miller has big time issues, etc). 

It is probably both.  It just sucks to be in a spot where you are hitting the reset button again. You look at Rodgers and people say well look at how he reads x, y and z, well in many cases that is because he's ran similar systems for 10+ years and has seen everything and the kitchen sink thrown at him.  

[bigruss]

It sucks to hit the reset button but this roster is terrible, we have so many huge holes to fill that there is no way a draft can heal it.  We need a ton more draft capital at this point.

[Chisoxfn]

Can someone explain to me how the NFL lets that Broncos game go on.  Was it purely them looking at things saying Broncos aren't a playoff team and Saints are a lock so lets just move this along?  If so - it feels like a really slippery slope relative to all the other cancellations that have happened.  I mean if you are a contender for the #1 seed in the NFC you have to be pretty irate about this.  

[Kyyle23]

57 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Can someone explain to me how the NFL lets that Broncos game go on.  Was it purely them looking at things saying Broncos aren't a playoff team and Saints are a lock so lets just move this along?  If so - it feels like a really slippery slope relative to all the other cancellations that have happened.  I mean if you are a contender for the #1 seed in the NFC you have to be pretty irate about this.  

Honestly this was one of the dumbest fucking things they have done, and there is a long list of those things.  Putting that kid out there to get crushed with one day of preparation was just fucked up

[Dick Allen]

Mitch lit up Detroit's 3rd string in the 4th quarter at the beginning of the year, and a NY Football Giant dropped a TD pass right in his hands or the Bears would have lost that one. They really are no better than the Lions, and the Lions thought they were so bad, they had to clean house. Why are the Bears not cleaning house?

They not only chose Trubisky over Watson and Mahomes, they had to get Mitch so badly, they gave up assets to move up 1 spot to get him. That and the ignoring of the offensive line should be fireable. They also gave up an asset and paid dearly in salary for Foles. WTF? These guys don't have a clue. It's time to move on.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Dick Allen

[whitesoxfan99]

2 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Can someone explain to me how the NFL lets that Broncos game go on.  Was it purely them looking at things saying Broncos aren't a playoff team and Saints are a lock so lets just move this along?  If so - it feels like a really slippery slope relative to all the other cancellations that have happened.  I mean if you are a contender for the #1 seed in the NFC you have to be pretty irate about this.  

Pretty sure it was as simple as the NFL making an example of the Broncos and what will happen to other teams if they let the same thing happen and it was convenient and easy to do since the Broncos aren’t any good.

[Chisoxfn]

7 minutes ago, whitesoxfan99 said:

Pretty sure it was as simple as the NFL making an example of the Broncos and what will happen to other teams if they let the same thing happen and it was convenient and easy to do since the Broncos aren’t any good.

Yeah - but at that point, what is so different between them and the Ravens?  

[Dick Allen]

58 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Yeah - but at that point, what is so different between them and the Ravens?  

I think it was because what happened to them wasn't considered an outbreak. The league just gave them an L.

[Chisoxfn]

27 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I think it was because what happened to them wasn't considered an outbreak. The league just gave them an L.

And I get it - the league came down hard and the Ravens came down hard on their strength & conditioning coach too.  And I understand why the league is coming down hard on teams who aren't complying - you need to send a message because it is key to keeping players safe and keeping the doors open and allowing the sport to be played.  

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, Chisoxfn said:

Yeah - but at that point, what is so different between them and the Ravens?  

IIRC< haven't a couple of teams gotten fines and lost draft picks too?

[yesterday333]

As a Broncos fan I am pretty upset they couldn’t move the game a day. It sux not being one of the nfls favored teams. We already got our schedule screwed up so the pats could get their starting QB and pro bowl CB to play, but they can’t move our game a day or 2 to have ANY QB. It is ridiculous what happened. They are being made an example.... but for who?  If Pitt or Dallas did this they won’t deal with the same consequences. 

[The Beast]

19 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Despite the bad throws by Mitch - it was the best this offense has looked in a long time (which tells you all you need to know).  Poor Mitch..throws 2 TD's on the first drive...both dropped...settle for field goal.  Than he gets a nice first down...called back via holding and follows up with turnover.  On the fumble he gets a massive face mask.  He had his issues but he was at least throwing the ball down the freaking field.  Whomever thought Nick Foles was better for this team made a huge mistake.  Than of course there is the defense - just flat out whipped in 1st half....gave Bears zero chance.  

Never surprised. I'll still say, Mitch is not near as bad as most Bears fans think he is...doesn't mean he's great either, he clearly isn't...but I don't know that anyone would be with Nagy's system and with this line (although I didn't even think the line was that terrible).  I hate the Packers - got I hate the Packers. 

I agree with you on Trubisky’s fumble and the massive face mask not called, I can’t necessarily fault him for that turnover. The offensive line is garbage and I don’t think Trubisky is as bad as Bears fans make him to be. I don’t know what they expect from their quarterback, it seems like some of them expect Mahomes or Manning in his prime out there.

19 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

At least thered be a direction for this team.

This team is directionless, except that it will never be good enough to win it all, as currently comprised.

By holding out for "one more season," many of your trade assets will only get older, more injured, or in other ways degraded. 

Meanwhile, this team will be over the cap (according to Hub Arkush) going into next season, without a QB, without an O-line, without a proper head coach, and without a competent GM. Did I miss anything? (EDIT) Oh yeah, Robinson rightly wants to and deserves to get paid, too.

 

But yeah, let's hold on, and hope to catch lightning in a bottle, right?

I thought some foolish Bears fans thought this was an elite and championship level defense. Where the hell were they last night?

I am talking about firing Pace and giving Nagy one year, something that Angelo did with Jauron, Emery did with Smith and other teams have done per Danny Parkins. 

There is no question that they will have cap issues (what team won’t after this year?) but they will have draft capital. I wonder if it is possible for them to fire Pace and have the new GM consult with Nagy, who could be someone that could run his offense with capable players. I don’t think Andy Reid could win with the team as it is constructed.

19 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Keep Danny T was a big mistake. He's a good leader, etc, but Nick K was an ascending player via DannyT on the wrong side and Pace just made a massive mistake picking the two. Obviously a lot of input went into that...but big mistake. Quinn is non-existent - just an awful use of cap space when they could have tried to bolster the oline (vs. thinking a new line coach would magically change things).  

And I will give credit to Rodgers - damn guy is good. 

Rodgers is good but it is embarrassing how bad the defense was last night. They were already down two scores before the first interception. Quinn and Trevathan are on Pace, no doubt.

19 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Hard to ball hawk when you literally haven't had the lead but in that Giants game.  That was literally only game they had the lead for much anytime. And not once this year outside of that have they had a 2 score lead (at least I don't think they have) at any point where you could actually get aggressive and start to get teams in predictable passing situations.

Khalil Mack has been a giant dud with the Bears. Not saying he isn't a good player, he is, but very overrated and no matter the excuse he just isn't making enough plays.  This game would have been closer with Hicks and obviously D is much much better with Hicks & Goldman (no one can run on you and it means a lot more 3rd and 7+ vs. this year where teams have been able to run a bit and keep things in 3rd and manageable a lot.  

By the way - not defending Jackson cause he's had a mediocre season, but as someone noted he had 2 TD's taken away on bad calls.  

Someone noted that but I still think Jackson’s production is way down this year. He and Mack don’t look like themselves out there.

19 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I tend to agree with you - I thin continuity is a big thing.  It will be interesting to see how they finish. They have a chance to practically win out....don't think they will...but they have a chance. They could also lose to a Lions team that I'm sure will be energized just by not having Patricia as HC and at that point...it could get really ugly really fast.  

Nagy is not a bad head coach - the problem is - he gets in his own way, imo.  Pace has responsibility too and I don't see why you give everyone another chance. And I don't want to draft a QB who is going to be drafted with one regime only to have another regime come in and blow it up.  My guess is Pace ends up sticking around and chooses another head coach (if things end bad).  I still think > 50% chance that Bears finish the year .500 or better and that gets them all another year. 

But WTF do they do at QB?  Foles obviously is not a starter....Mitch is going elsewhere....and you have no cap space.  They will be coaching / GMing for their livelihood so I don't see someone making the right LT moves in that situation.  

You have to keep Foles and draft a quarterback because you are stuck with Foles’ contract. I hope the reverse happens and they keep Nagy and fire Pace, but maybe it hinges on if they win out or not. The ownership group just can’t get out of their own way either with how bad the scouting and general managers have been.

[StrangeSox]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is any other franchise this historically pathetic at qb?

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, StrangeSox said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is any other franchise this historically pathetic at qb?

I think the Browns and Lions have been pretty bad

[southsider2k5]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I think the Browns and Lions have been pretty bad

Matt Stafford would easily be the Bears GOAT QB without even glancing at the stats.

 

[Jack Parkman]

46 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Matt Stafford would easily be the Bears GOAT QB without even glancing at the stats.

 

Well, yeah. But I think Cutler>Bernie Kosar. 

EDIT: Yep. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Bob Sacamano]

10 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Mitch lit up Detroit's 3rd string in the 4th quarter at the beginning of the year, and a NY Football Giant dropped a TD pass right in his hands or the Bears would have lost that one. They really are no better than the Lions, and the Lions thought they were so bad, they had to clean house. Why are the Bears not cleaning house?

They not only chose Trubisky over Watson and Mahomes, they had to get Mitch so badly, they gave up assets to move up 1 spot to get him. That and the ignoring of the offensive line should be fireable. They also gave up an asset and paid dearly in salary for Foles. WTF? These guys don't have a clue. It's time to move on.

If people didn't know who the Bears owner was but knew how the Bears were run, you could guess that Jerry owned the team and it would be a good guess haha

[Harry Chappas]

The President of the organization is not even qualified to hire football people yet he is the president of a professional football organization.

They need a person with a football mind to run the organization and a person with a business mind to run that side of it.

Ted Phillips got he city to build the Bears a stadium and as such who cares what happens.  I could give a flying f**k about how pissed Virginia and George are currently.  That means about as much as Matt Nagy talking about how everyone NOW needs to realize where they are in the season...sigh

 

 

[bmags]

I think hiring a football connected president will do good to ease concerns that bears are in a death spiral the browns were in of cleaning house every few years with no stability. George and Ted will not be stability because they aren't running the football operations.

DBB mentioned Eliot Wolf today, who is available. I still say Bears need to raid the Steelers or Ravens of some very high up people and promise them they get the org. New facilities. Flush with cash. Long-term deal. Do what they want with it. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

18 hours ago, The Beast said:

There is no question that they will have cap issues (what team won’t after this year?) but they will have draft capital. I wonder if it is possible for them to fire Pace and have the new GM consult with Nagy, who could be someone that could run his offense with capable players. I don’t think Andy Reid could win with the team as it is constructed.

Holy shit!

You admit this is a poorly-coached, and poorly-assembled team, yet you want to keep the shitty coach around?

Why, exactly? 

 

Again, they have:

1. No QB,

2. A shitty O-Line,

3. (If Robinson doesn't re-sign here) No skill position players that would start for another team,

4. Not a high enough pick to solve some of these issues,

5. An aging defense, and

6. No cap space.

 

So other than you having a fear of change, why repeat the Fire the GM/keep the coach failures of yesteryear?

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[StrangeSox]

What GM wants to step into that shitshow with not enough picks to fix things and no cap space?