NFL Thread 2020-2021

[thxfrthmmrs]

15 hours ago, dasox24 said:

I wouldn't worry too much about Mack yet.  Even if he has another year like last year, that's still one of the best pass rushers in the league.  I can't say that we'll ever live to regret that deal.  The trade ended up being:

Bears receive:

• Khalil Mack
• Cole Kmet
• Arlington Hambright

Raiders receive:

• Josh Jacobs
• Blessuan Austin (this pick was traded to NYJ)
• Damon Arnette
• Bryan Edwards

Jacobs is a very good RB , but I'll take Mack over him any day.  And obviously it's too early on Arnette and Edwards, but neither of those guys concern me right now.  Guess we can revisit this in a year or two, but I still like our end of the deal.

If you factor in salary, then it's an L for the Bears. That being said, I am not too worried yet, but Mack really need to step up by a quite a bit. It's been an ongoing trend dating back to late last year.

[thxfrthmmrs]

22 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I think he's going to be on a short leash for a while - that said - I won't come to any conclusion from 1 game.  Mitch was lousy for 3 quarters and wasn't good enough and was really really good for a quarter.  

If I was an optimist, I'd say 1st 3 quarters were timing and working through kinks (no preseason, etc) and maybe things started coming together in 4th quarter and we saw a preview of what to expect in the future.

If I was a pessimist - I'd say he was what he has been for 3 quarters and than he beat up a banged up secondary in the 4th quarter with a team schematically shifting from zone to man (zone has always troubled Mitch) and so you pretty much have to ignore his 4th quarter.

I think everything in the "optimist & pessimist" section has a lot of truth in it - I'd also say that even a pessimist would have to agree that the one thing you can't argue is that Mitch didn't wilt in the 4th quarter, despite the bad game - which I do believe to be a real positive.  Good QB's find ways to help there team, even when the unit is struggling, etc.  In the 4th quarter - he overcame his own noise and threw some great balls.  

An optimist could also chalk up his first 3 quarters to not having a preseason. The offseason changes he made would take a few reps to get going, and once he got going he looked great. But game 2 would really tell us whether we still have the same Mitch or a better Mitch.

Edited September 15, 2020 by thxfrthmmrs

[bmags]

22 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

If you factor in salary, then it's an L for the Bears. That being said, I am not too worried yet, but Mack really need to step up by a quite a bit. It's been an ongoing trend dating back to late last year.

I'm not sure we can every really just do a "players that went here" thing. If we had those picks, we probably don't trade up for montgomery. We made a lot of trade ups last two years, maybe we end up with a lot more guys, more depth. 

[dasox24]

15 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

If you factor in salary, then it's an L for the Bears. That being said, I am not too worried yet, but Mack really need to step up by a quite a bit. It's been an ongoing trend dating back to late last year.

Who knows what will happen with the salary cap next year, but Mack only accounts for 12% of our cap space this year.  We can manage that.  Even if the cap stays flat or goes down next year, I expect it will jump again in 2022 and beyond.

[dasox24]

46 minutes ago, bmags said:

I'm not sure we can every really just do a "players that went here" thing. If we had those picks, we probably don't trade up for montgomery. We made a lot of trade ups last two years, maybe we end up with a lot more guys, more depth. 

Yeah, but if people want to determine a winner/loser on the trade (which I'll admit is nearly impossible b/c of the factors you stated - but I got sucked in, so now here I am), then how else do you do it?  It gets too hypothetical guessing who we may or may not have drafted with picks, or not trading other picks.  And Pace's 1st round track record is terrible anyway - he's 1 for 4.  It's difficult to be that bad when you're drafting in the Top 10 all four of those years.

I'd feel safer with Mack than either of those 2 first round picks we gave up.  The other picks are small in terms of draft capital.  Plus we got the 2nd rounder back.

Edited September 15, 2020 by dasox24

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, dasox24 said:

Yeah, but if people want to determine a winner/loser on the trade (which I'll admit is nearly impossible b/c of the factors you stated - but I got sucked in, so now here I am), then how else do you do it?  It gets too hypothetical guessing who we may or may not have drafted with picks, or not trading other picks.  And Pace's 1st round track record is terrible anyway - he's 1 for 4.  It's difficult to be that bad when you're drafting in the Top 10 all four of those years.

I'd feel safer with Mack than either of those 2 first round picks we gave up.  The other picks are small in terms of draft capital.  Plus we got the 2nd rounder back.

I agree. Whether they win or not with Mack remains to be seen, but they weren’t going to get a player like him with the picks they gave up. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

29 minutes ago, dasox24 said:

Who knows what will happen with the salary cap next year, but Mack only accounts for 12% of our cap space this year.  We can manage that.  Even if the cap stays flat or goes down next year, I expect it will jump again in 2022 and beyond.

12% isn't nothing in the NFL. Yes EDGE will cost you, but if Mack disappears in games like he has recently, I really can't tell the difference between him and the EDGE being paid at $10-15 mil per. This isn't a hot take or let's get worried about Mack post. He's has been totally worth it his first year, but we need to start seeing that guy more and not the guy who we're accustomed to seeing recently. Whether Raiders won the trade, which was the original point, depends on whether Mack is the guy we saw the first year and a half in Chicago, or the guy we saw last half a season or so.

Edited September 15, 2020 by thxfrthmmrs

[thxfrthmmrs]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I'm not sure we can every really just do a "players that went here" thing. If we had those picks, we probably don't trade up for montgomery. We made a lot of trade ups last two years, maybe we end up with a lot more guys, more depth. 

Without the Mack trade, who was the catalyst on defense on that playoff team, I think our pick would have been a lot higher. So it's really hard to say what we would have gotten for the same assets and cap space, we can only look at what actually ended being part of the trade.

[bmags]

I still do mack trade again. You make the mack trade because you are all in on maximizing a rookie contract. You had to plan for Trubisky to be good.

Now that Trubisky wasn't good, it's natural to say "shit could we have used that to make a deeper team to overcome trubisky", but we were headed for pain no matter what happened if trubisky failed.

 

[Jack Parkman]

Allen Robinson has deleted Bears stuff from his social media. There's a lot of smoke that he wants out. 

I can't blame him. His qbs have been terrible(Bortles and Trubisky) 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Kyyle23]

38 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Allen Robinson has deleted Bears stuff from his social media. There's a lot of smoke that he wants out. 

I can't blame him. His qbs have been terrible(Bortles and Trubisky) 

The smoke isn't that he wanted out.  He wants to get paid.  We keep telling you that

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

The smoke isn't that he wanted out.  He wants to get paid.  We keep telling you that

Well, yeah...he's already had one serious injury. I don't know why they won't pay him. It makes no sense. 

Anyway, I wouldn't blame him if he wanted both to get paid and a better QB to throw him the ball.

Pace and Nagy have a strict "no turd" rule so if he starts to make a stink publicly that's an easy way to get traded/paid. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Chisoxfn]

3 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

If you factor in salary, then it's an L for the Bears. That being said, I am not too worried yet, but Mack really need to step up by a quite a bit. It's been an ongoing trend dating back to late last year.

Yeah - I don't disagree with what the others have said - call it what you want, but every since he got hurt late in the playoff year and than again last year (after 1st few games) - he just hasn't been an impact player and they are paying him to be one. I can't just ignore fact that he's injured - since they are paying him to make an impact.  I absolutely think he could come on and beast - I just want to see it and see it consistently - afterall that is what they are paying him to do.  

[Chisoxfn]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

The smoke isn't that he wanted out.  He wants to get paid.  We keep telling you that

The hard part is - he is a professional wideout - but he also isn't as explosive as others.  THe Bears wideouts in general were pretty piss poor this past week at creating seperation and that is a consistent trend from last season.  Robinson is just able to do everything right fundamentally that he can get away with less seperation.  

Somewhere though - there is a disconnect between what the two sides see from a value perspective.  I get a feeling if they can't agree soon (where Bears get to use cap space they have now) - they are going to have a harder time agreeing in the off-season (but maybe with cap going down or something due to COVID it actually doesn't bite the Bears as bad as it usually does).  I'd still say there is a chance something gets done in next 2 weeks. 

Problem is - if the Bears don't make playoffs this year - I don't know how much Robinson helps you if the team needs to hit the reset button on QB and everything else.  

[ptatc]

4 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

The hard part is - he is a professional wideout - but he also isn't as explosive as others.  THe Bears wideouts in general were pretty piss poor this past week at creating seperation and that is a consistent trend from last season.  Robinson is just able to do everything right fundamentally that he can get away with less seperation.  

Somewhere though - there is a disconnect between what the two sides see from a value perspective.  I get a feeling if they can't agree soon (where Bears get to use cap space they have now) - they are going to have a harder time agreeing in the off-season (but maybe with cap going down or something due to COVID it actually doesn't bite the Bears as bad as it usually does).  I'd still say there is a chance something gets done in next 2 weeks. 

Problem is - if the Bears don't make playoffs this year - I don't know how much Robinson helps you if the team needs to hit the reset button on QB and everything else.  

This is part of the reason the Bears are good against man defense but poorer against zone defense. They really need Ginn to bust a few long passes to loosen up the zones.

[Jack Parkman]

17 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

The hard part is - he is a professional wideout - but he also isn't as explosive as others.  THe Bears wideouts in general were pretty piss poor this past week at creating seperation and that is a consistent trend from last season.  Robinson is just able to do everything right fundamentally that he can get away with less seperation.  

Somewhere though - there is a disconnect between what the two sides see from a value perspective.  I get a feeling if they can't agree soon (where Bears get to use cap space they have now) - they are going to have a harder time agreeing in the off-season (but maybe with cap going down or something due to COVID it actually doesn't bite the Bears as bad as it usually does).  I'd still say there is a chance something gets done in next 2 weeks. 

Problem is - if the Bears don't make playoffs this year - I don't know how much Robinson helps you if the team needs to hit the reset button on QB and everything else.  

I don't disagree. 

I think the window to win with this group has closed anyway, if it ever was open.  If they wanted to trade guys like Fuller, Hicks, Mack, Robinson I have no problems with it. They're not going to win with these guys, so I don't mind if they cash in on them. 

After this season, 

Fuller will be 29

Hicks will be 31

Mack will be 30

Robinson will be 28

 

These guys don't fit their window anyway. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Chisoxfn]

12 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This is part of the reason the Bears are good against man defense but poorer against zone defense. They really need Ginn to bust a few long passes to loosen up the zones.

It is also why Mooney is really intriguing - small sample size - but he was the only Bears wideout with above league average separation last week - and it was well above league average.  His explosiveness is real - whether he can learn all the intricacies that are necessary - we will see.  I really think the lack of playmakers the Bears have at WR / TE has a real impact in the clubs inability to make big time plays (when you can't separate - you just aren't going to see as many pick time plays nor are you going to see as high of execution on the stretch plays).  And separation has nothing to do with whether Mitch is making the right read or not - since it is agnostic of where the ball goes (at least I assume it is).  

Good news is - I think Mooney & Kmet will help with that and Graham (even as a shell of his former self helps over the turds the Bears had last year). Robinson is a pro - so even with mediocre separation he'll be valuable - but Miller I think might be one of the x-factors. He takes his game next level and if the ground game can consistently be solid (not great - solid) than I think we'll see things start to open up.  

[Chisoxfn]

15 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't disagree. 

I think the window to win with this group has closed anyway, if it ever was open.  If they wanted to trade guys like Fuller, Hicks, Mack, Robinson I have no problems with it. They're not going to win with these guys, so I don't mind if they cash in on them. 

After this season, 

Fuller will be 29

Hicks will be 31

Mack will be 30

Robinson will be 28

 

These guys don't fit their window anyway. 

I'm going to let this year play out - as this defense still has a nice window - but you are right - depending on what happens, the Bears could face some really difficult choices. We also don't know what the FA / Trade market might look like on the QB front either - at I still go back to - this team is a good QB away from still having a pretty nice window - although they could do some "Patriots" type moves where they trade some guys on the older end while still getting value (kind of extending the window a bit - which is probably what I would do regardless of how the season plays out).

That said - enough about next year - we are a week in and I'm still excited about this year!!! 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

I'm going to let this year play out - as this defense still has a nice window - but you are right - depending on what happens, the Bears could face some really difficult choices. We also don't know what the FA / Trade market might look like on the QB front either - at I still go back to - this team is a good QB away from still having a pretty nice window - although they could do some "Patriots" type moves where they trade some guys on the older end while still getting value (kind of extending the window a bit - which is probably what I would do regardless of how the season plays out).

That said - enough about next year - we are a week in and I'm still excited about this year!!! 

Robinson has requested a trade per Biggs. 

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

I'm going to let this year play out - as this defense still has a nice window - but you are right - depending on what happens, the Bears could face some really difficult choices. We also don't know what the FA / Trade market might look like on the QB front either - at I still go back to - this team is a good QB away from still having a pretty nice window - although they could do some "Patriots" type moves where they trade some guys on the older end while still getting value (kind of extending the window a bit - which is probably what I would do regardless of how the season plays out).

That said - enough about next year - we are a week in and I'm still excited about this year!!! 

7 games before the trade deadline this year. 0 against playoff teams from last year and the Detroit game is their only divisional game up to that point. Their record should be strong at that point...if it isn't....that's a good decision point.

[Chisoxfn]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Robinson has requested a trade per Biggs. 

Interesting - Timing stinks cause we could have gotten some real value for him in the off-season - now a lot more pressure.  Really don't like the timing of this - but that probably makes it a good play from Robinson's perspective.  

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Interesting - Timing stinks cause we could have gotten some real value for him in the off-season - now a lot more pressure.  Really don't like the timing of this - but that probably makes it a good play from Robinson's perspective.  

Too bad the Texans don't have a 1st rounder next year. They could really use Robinson. 

Like I said earlier, it sucks but I'm not that mad. 

Whatever it takes to get Pace and Nagy fired. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Chisoxfn]

25 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Too bad the Texans don't have a 1st rounder next year. They could really use Robinson. 

Like I said earlier, it sucks but I'm not that mad. 

Whatever it takes to get Pace and Nagy fired. 

I guess some mixed reports - others are saying he hasn't requested a trade - I know Cohen and I think some others on the Bears are tweeting Pay Arob.  Reality is this tactic is kind of necessary at times given the nature of football (so I absolutely get it from a players perspective) but it is also a very delicant balance for a front office as to how you handle these things and establish precedent. In general - I feel Bears actually have this happen a lot less than other franchises, but that might also because they just don't have as many elite playmakers either haha.  

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Chisoxfn said:

I guess some mixed reports - others are saying he hasn't requested a trade - I know Cohen and I think some others on the Bears are tweeting Pay Arob.  Reality is this tactic is kind of necessary at times given the nature of football (so I absolutely get it from a players perspective) but it is also a very delicant balance for a front office as to how you handle these things and establish precedent. In general - I feel Bears actually have this happen a lot less than other franchises, but that might also because they just don't have as many elite playmakers either haha.  

Nailed it with the bolded. 

[Kyyle23]

 

money.  It's all about money.