NFL Thread 2020-2021

[bmags]

Pathetic

 

[YoYoIsMyHero]

 

[TheTruth05]

Lame Duck franchise. 

[Tony]

Nothing changes at the top, Pagano is the scapegoat, and on and on the story goes. 

[Chisoxfn]

I can live with it - if there was a move being made at the top to bring in a new president. 

[Chisoxfn]

Just now, Tony said:

Nothing changes at the top, Pagano is the scapegoat, and on and on the story goes. 

Pretty evident with how yesterday and today went down that McCaskey doesn't have any vision and that is probably very indicative of why the franchise has been the way it has for the past 30+ years.  

[SoxAce]

What a fucking joke. 

[Marqhead]

Disappointing, but really not surprising at all. And I’ll renew my season tickets like the sheep I am. 

[Tony]

14 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

Pretty evident with how yesterday and today went down that McCaskey doesn't have any vision and that is probably very indicative of why the franchise has been the way it has for the past 30+ years.  

I'd really, really enjoy hearing what was said/thought that Pace deserves a 7th year to try and win a playoff game. 

[TheTruth05]

3 minutes ago, Tony said:

I'd really, really enjoy hearing what was said/thought that Pace deserves a 7th year to try and win a playoff game. 

“He’s charming and has a great haircut!” - Bears Ownership

[Chisoxfn]

11 minutes ago, Tony said:

I'd really, really enjoy hearing what was said/thought that Pace deserves a 7th year to try and win a playoff game. 

I have the same thoughts on Nagy. i get more and more frustrated when I think how badly the offense has failed. I think of the Fox era and they had some bad QB's but they still were able to move the football better than this and with really bad receiving corps, etc.  

In Pace's case - it is the same thing - the lack of offensive personell is just really bad.  

[Tony]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

I have the same thoughts on Nagy. i get more and more frustrated when I think how badly the offense has failed. I think of the Fox era and they had some bad QB's but they still were able to move the football better than this and with really bad receiving corps, etc.  

In Pace's case - it is the same thing - the lack of offensive personell is just really bad.  

I don't disagree on Nagy, especially with how they built him up when he was hired, the offensive mastermind. I don't know why, as Chicago fans, we continue to fall for it time after time. 

[chw42]

Pagano was definitely bad at his job, but he wasn't the one responsible for scoring 3 points in a playoff game before one garbage time touchdown. 

[Soxbadger]

Bad decision. They should be tearing it down, trading down for more picks next year etc.

Try and time it for 3 years frim now when Rodgers is hopefully looking for something else to do.

[The Beast]

2 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I can live with it - if there was a move being made at the top to bring in a new president. 

There has to be at least consideration at the ownership level to bring in a team president. New coaches and roster changes can’t be the only changes.

[Soxfest]

Please sell McCaskey’s......you have been mediocre since 85. Giving Pace yet another chance to piss away the QB position is borderline criminal!

Edited January 13, 2021 by Soxfest

[Chicago White Sox]

On 1/11/2021 at 8:50 PM, Chisoxfn said:

For the record - when you look at the winningest quarterbacks in the recent NFL, very few of them were #1 or even the top QB selected in their draft class.  Looking broadly, when I think of the best QB's in football, I start with the following:

Aaron Rodgers = 24th overall

Patrick Mahomes = 3rd QB taken in draft (10th overall)

Drew Brees = 2nd round pick

Russel Wilson = 3rd round pick 

Tom Brady = 6th round pick

Big Ben = 11th overall (3rd QB taken)

The above have been the class of the NFL for a long time (or in Mahomes case the current uber elite).  Obviously beyond that the Manning brothers were both high picks who have won multiple superbowls in recent years (and retired). Peyton is pretty much the exception over past 20 years as the top pick on the board who has been the star studded QB to win multiple superbowls (I discount Eli Manning because he was so darn mediocre).  Obviously we can also look at Watson/Lamar Jackson as guys who might be on this list over time. Watson was a pretty damn high pick, while Lamar Jackson obviously fell in the draft due to concerns over his ability to throw a football.  

In fact - you could argue the best way you should go is build a darn good football team and system and continually invest in QB's to surround them and hope you hit.  Maybe the 

 

If you look at the list of the top QB selected...this is it going back over the past 10 years:

2020 - Joe Burrow = TBD = Obviously first year looks good, but injury issues; 

2019 - Kyler Murray = TBD = Looks like a pretty solid player, but yet to lead his team to playoffs;

2018 - Baker Mayfield = Solid QB...but I don't think anyone would make a heavy bet on him being in the class of any of the QB's on my initial list

2017 - Mitchell Trubisky = 2nd/3rd tier starter - Solid guy, probable long career as back-up with potential to be a Baker Mayfield type of QB (to the upside) or a Blake Bortles type (to downside) 

2016 - Jared Goff = Mediocre QB - 1 elite year, more blah years, likely product of a system, but in his defense, pretty good stats and made playoffs a lot - my personal opinion is he is just a "guy" though...nothing special

2015 - Jameis Winston = Backup - Could be a reclamation project, but no one would peg him as a franchise guy

2014 - Blake Bortles = Backup 

2013 - EJ Manuel = Out of Football (I think) = But short lived and awful career (although I do think he beat the Bears at least once IIRC in the heyday of Trestman's stink)

2012 - Andrew Luck = Was very good, looked franchise(esque) but got hit a lot and obvious injury issues / holding onto ball too long. Out of football due to injuries.

2011 - Cam Newton = Very good early career; Not sure I'd put in class of the top tier guys, but you could certainly debate it. Duration was short due to beating he took, but in general my view of Cam is that his career was underrated. Although his window of greatness was shorter than most "franchise" QB's

2010 - Sam Bradford = Long time back-up, highly accurate middle of the road QB, who got paid absurd amounts of money and who was impacted by injuries.  

You already touched on Mahomes, but Ryan Tannehill, Josh Allen, & Justin Herbert were all taken in the 6 to 8 range and were the third QB selected in their respective drafts.  Point is you can still land a great QB outside of the #1 pick, but you need to keep investing in the position.  Hell, Tannehill was a bust with the Dolphins and has found new life with the Titans.  Maybe that can be Winston...at a bare minimum, he’s worth a shot over Mitch.  Draft a developmental QB in the 2nd or 3rd round and see how things shake out next year.  If we use 2021 as a reset year, we could easily end up with a top 10 pick and be in range to select a higher end QB prospect in the 2022 draft.  Keeping throw darts until you hit a franchise QB...nothing else really matters until that role is filled IMO.

[dasox24]

5 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

I can live with it - if there was a move being made at the top to bring in a new president. 

Agreed.  My biggest concern if the power structure stays the exact same is that GMs and coaches make short-sighted, bad decisions when they're trying to save their jobs.  We're in salary cap hell and I'm tired of kicking the can down the road.  The team is going to be worse next year regardless, so I'd rather take our lumps and put ourselves in better cap position in 2022.  But I'm afraid Pace will mortgage the future to save his job - e.g. restructuring deals to have bigger cap hits in future years and handing out big contracts to aging veterans (i.e. like he did last year with Robert Quinn).  I'm also afraid he'll continue his ways of trading future drafts picks (and/or multiple draft picks) to move up in the draft to get "his guy," which has consistently not worked out. When he's forced to just keep the pick we have, he's actually drafted really well (outside of Round 1, which is a major problem itself that he screwed up 3 top 10 picks, but I won't go down that path right now).

[Soxbadger]

13 minutes ago, dasox24 said:

Agreed.  My biggest concern if the power structure stays the exact same is that GMs and coaches make short-sighted, bad decisions when they're trying to save their jobs.  We're in salary cap hell and I'm tired of kicking the can down the road.  The team is going to be worse next year regardless, so I'd rather take our lumps and put ourselves in better cap position in 2022.  But I'm afraid Pace will mortgage the future to save his job - e.g. restructuring deals to have bigger cap hits in future years and handing out big contracts to aging veterans (i.e. like he did last year with Robert Quinn).  I'm also afraid he'll continue his ways of trading future drafts picks (and/or multiple draft picks) to move up in the draft to get "his guy," which has consistently not worked out. When he's forced to just keep the pick we have, he's actually drafted really well (outside of Round 1, which is a major problem itself that he screwed up 3 top 10 picks, but I won't go down that path right now).

Isnt the problem that by keeping Pace you have incentivized him to win now instead of hiring someone else who wouldnt mortgage the future? I cant imagine Pace trading down, accumulating picks etc. 

[Chisoxfn]

11 minutes ago, Soxbadger said:

Isnt the problem that by keeping Pace you have incentivized him to win now instead of hiring someone else who wouldnt mortgage the future? I cant imagine Pace trading down, accumulating picks etc. 

It’s why they need a president to make sure that doesn’t happen. I do expect we will see a move made to invest in a qb. If I were Pace my best chance at sticking around is solving qb. I take a shot at Winston and draft a qb. 
 

If the new qb or Winston flash - even if the team isn’t good - I buy time if there is hope at qb. Technically if I am Nagy the same probably works. Their best chance is aggressive plays to upgrade qb. As long as they don’t trade a bunch of picks for it or jack up the cap - I am actually 100 percent on board with that - someone need to make sure that sort of stuff doesn’t happen. 

[Soxbadger]

6 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

It’s why they need a president to make sure that doesn’t happen. I do expect we will see a move made to invest in a qb. If I were Pace my best chance at sticking around is solving qb. I take a shot at Winston and draft a qb. 
 

If the new qb or Winston flash - even if the team isn’t good - I buy time if there is hope at qb. Technically if I am Nagy the same probably works. Their best chance is aggressive plays to upgrade qb. As long as they don’t trade a bunch of picks for it or jack up the cap - I am actually 100 percent on board with that - someone need to make sure that sort of stuff doesn’t happen. 

So basically demote Pace and take away all his personnel decision making?

Then what is the point of keeping him.

Getting a work in progress QB is a fools errand. Lets just assume Robinson is gone, you are looking at one of the worst WR groups in the NFL. Kmet looks decent, Montgomery is good, but that is it on offense.

Winston last played with 2 Pro Bowl receivers. It seems extremely unlikely that he somehow could get better with the Bears WRs. 

There was only one path, and that was to trade for whatever picks you can get. Trade down in this years draft to try and get as many picks next year. Use these 2 years to completely restock the system. Youd also would have 2-3 years to find the right QB.

Im not really sure how Pace can pull that plan off. And if your hiring someone to be his "superior" as in a new President, why wouldnt you hire the new President and then let him pick his own people. Or let him decide on Pace? Otherwise its just all backwards. 

[maggsmaggs]

10 hours ago, Tony said:

I'd really, really enjoy hearing what was said/thought that Pace deserves a 7th year to try and win a playoff game. 

And a fourth shot at finding a starting QB. I am worried his desperation will cause him to trade up in the draft to get a new QB and further set the franchise back long-term. 

[dasox24]

8 hours ago, Soxbadger said:

So basically demote Pace and take away all his personnel decision making?

 

It's not taking away all of his personnel decision making. It's making sure he doesn't do something to mortgage the future.  "You want to trade 4 draft picks to move up and take Player X?  No, we're not going to do that, but let's select the best player on the board when our pick arrives."  I do think Pace is a valuable asset in terms of scouting and identifying talent in the draft.  His overall track record is pretty good.  And there are other job duties that a GM performs outside of just personnel decisions - he seems to be pretty solid at those things.

If it were up to me, I'd have fired Pace because the above situation is not ideal - not sure how he'd take essentially being demoted.  If you're going to have that kind of leadership structure, ideally you start fresh.  But it's kind of my last ditch hope that we have a true president of football ops, and that person is in charge with Pace working under him.  Like Arturas Karnisovas and Marc Eversley.

Edited January 13, 2021 by dasox24

[bmags]

4 hours ago, maggsmaggs said:

And a fourth shot at finding a starting QB. I am worried his desperation will cause him to trade up in the draft to get a new QB and further set the franchise back long-term. 

He's going to fall in love with Mac Jones then convince himself a team is about to draft him one spot ahead, trade a fourth and a sixth. etc etc

[Chisoxfn]

Just now, bmags said:

He's going to fall in love with Mac Jones then convince himself a team is about to draft him one spot ahead, trade a fourth and a sixth. etc etc

Which honestly - might be the right thing for the franchise to do. I just want to have a president or someone else who has a longer term contract in here who can help be a part of that evaluation process (who is also evaluating Pace & Nagy and the whole enterprise).  I don't want everything just falling on two potential lame ducks. I complained 2 years ago when the Bears were borrowing into the future and that was when they were coming off a 12 win season.  I think there are only absolute rare situations where you borrow into the future and I don't even think they did anything meaningful with some of the Mack money they pushed out, etc.  

Those things irk me a ton. They go against almost everything I stand for on a financial side of the house, etc.