Stone's Throwing of Shade at Ricky

[SonofaRoache]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Fans are idiots for the most part Roache; I am in that group of idiots. 

Everyone has the answers from their couch. It's just the way sports and athletics make us feel. Reality is there's much more to many of these decisions and painting them all as black and white is fun for forums but not reality. In reality, turnover is really bad. The professional world teaches us that continuity drives success, but in sports that is ignored often because of fan and local pressures.

Fans are idiots, but the teams did the firings I spoke of. The Hawks fired Q after winning 3 titles. The Bulls let Phil walk after winning 6 titles. The Bears fired Lovie after a 10 win season with a SB appearance and 2 Championship game appearances. So the argument that we should be okay with Ricky because the team is winning overall is weak. We get on Nomar and EE and Eloy's defense but that doesn't mean we don't want them to be better. Ricky is in the same boat and is held to a high standard like everyone else. 

[mqr]

Just now, SonofaRoache said:

Fans are idiots, but the teams did the firings I spoke of. The Hawks fired Q after winning 3 titles. The Bulls let Phil walk after winning 6 titles. The Bears fired Lovie after a 10 win season with a SB appearance and 2 Championship game appearances.

Hows that going for them?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, mqr said:

I would have yanked Eloy. 

But there’s all this consternation about lineup construction and pitching decisions, meanwhile the Sox have the best offense in the AL and the best team ERA over the past month. It’s absurd. 

Yes, yes, yes. This is exactly statistical EVIDENCE that what fans view as optimum decision making means next to nothing. How can one argue with Renteria's bullpen or SP decisions? No one on this site think the White Sox have 4 good SP's, and plenty hate half of the bullpen... yet that unit has been one of the tops in baseball. Clearly the people who are responsible for putting them in positions to succeed have done that this year. 

I can be critical of things all I want, but the fact is the Sox have outperformed projections and etc. That is 99.9999999% the players themselves as it ALWAYS is, but that .0000001% is the coaching staff and they've done a terrific job. Everyone wants to fire Coop and Renteria and the PD department... and the Sox are sitting in 1st place, with the best team in the AL and at the start of this year 90% of this board was just HOPING to be competitive. 

[SonofaRoache]

1 minute ago, mqr said:

Hows that going for them?

Not well at all. But that wasn't the point. The point was that winning organizations have a high standard for the coach. Coaches have been fired after accomplishing a lot more than Ricky has. Do the argument that fans should be okay with him because of our season record is weak. 

[Big Hurtin]

I think history is going to repeat itself, unfortunately for Stone (and us IMO).

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Fans are idiots, but the teams did the firings I spoke of. The Hawks fired Q after winning 3 titles. The Bulls let Phil walk after winning 6 titles. The Bears fired Lovie after a 10 win season with a SB appearance and 2 Championship game appearances. So the argument that we should be okay with Ricky because the team is winning overall is weak. We get on Nomar and EE and Eloy's defense but that doesn't mean we don't want them to be better. Ricky is in the same boat and is held to a high standard like everyone else. 

I know, it's insane! Brilliant business man who have built their empires on continuity in their professions - maintaining top employees and etc over searching for hopefully slightly better replacements - succumb to the peer pressure of their customers even though their customers peer pressure is the wrong move 99% of the time. It's baffling and something that has always infatuated me.

The Bears fired LOVIE SMITH. He had won the 4th most games over a 10 year period in football. He had just won 10 games. The players loved him. He led a professional organization how you want it led. They fired him and replaced him repeatedly with lesser leaders. It's hilarious how often teams do that.

[SonofaRoache]

7 minutes ago, mqr said:

I would have yanked Eloy. 

But there’s all this consternation about lineup construction and pitching decisions, meanwhile the Sox have the best offense in the AL and the best team ERA over the past month. It’s absurd. 

That's fair. But you don't think that has anything to do with 24 of our first 46 games coming against Pirates, Tigers, and Royals? Hell, Cleveland and Milwaukee couldn't hit the ball when we played them. 

[HaroldSouthside]

I sincerely believe hiring and retaining Bevington is the most gawd awful moronic asinine decision The White Sox have made in my lifetime. He made Ventura look good. Not sarcasm... he made Ventura look good!

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, yes, yes. This is exactly statistical EVIDENCE that what fans view as optimum decision making means next to nothing. How can one argue with Renteria's bullpen or SP decisions? No one on this site think the White Sox have 4 good SP's, and plenty hate half of the bullpen... yet that unit has been one of the tops in baseball. Clearly the people who are responsible for putting them in positions to succeed have done that this year. 

I can be critical of things all I want, but the fact is the Sox have outperformed projections and etc. That is 99.9999999% the players themselves as it ALWAYS is, but that .0000001% is the coaching staff and they've done a terrific job. Everyone wants to fire Coop and Renteria and the PD department... and the Sox are sitting in 1st place, with the best team in the AL and at the start of this year 90% of this board was just HOPING to be competitive. 

This is another good point why I'm just trying to create some room for Ricky for last night. I thought his management of the pitching on Sunday to get him the leeway to throw his best bullpen at the twins last night, along with how he actually managed the bullpen last night when everyone was struggling with command was actually great. Not just correct, I think he did better than most.

I thought Ozzie was a pretty bad game manager overall, but then he managed the perfect playoffs in 05. I'm kinda hoping that Ricky shines in the spotlight. We literally don't know, because he's never been close.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

That's fair. But you don't think that has anything to do with 24 of our first 46 games coming against Pirates, Tigers, and Royals? Hell, Cleveland and Milwaukee couldn't hit the ball when we played them. 

Again, we all knew this before the season started. If people told you that on September 15th the Sox would have the 8th most WAR from SP and the 7th most from RP's you would have said no chance.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

That's fair. But you don't think that has anything to do with 24 of our first 46 games coming against Pirates, Tigers, and Royals? Hell, Cleveland and Milwaukee couldn't hit the ball when we played them. 

The tigers and royals are only awful because they had to play us 20 times so far.

[Green Line]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, yes, yes. This is exactly statistical EVIDENCE that what fans view as optimum decision making means next to nothing. How can one argue with Renteria's bullpen or SP decisions? No one on this site think the White Sox have 4 good SP's, and plenty hate half of the bullpen... yet that unit has been one of the tops in baseball. Clearly the people who are responsible for putting them in positions to succeed have done that this year.

This makes no sense at all.  Its burying your head in the sand because things are going well, ignoring the fact that our manager is making awful decisions along the way.  Yes, the guys are playing well IN SPITE of bone headed decisions from the manager.  There is no "statistical evidence" of anything there.  Cease has been incredibly lucky this year.  So have many other pitchers in the bullpen.  What you're saying is to ignore all of this because things have been going right over the past 30 or so games.  Mind boggling.

[mqr]

 

7 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Not well at all. But that wasn't the point. The point was that winning organizations have a high standard for the coach. Coaches have been fired after accomplishing a lot more than Ricky has. Do the argument that fans should be okay with him because of our season record is weak. 

Also worth noting that the coach plays a MUCH more integral part to the sports you mentioned and stale ideas can become a problem. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, bmags said:

This is another good point why I'm just trying to create some room for Ricky for last night. I thought his management of the pitching on Sunday to get him the leeway to throw his best bullpen at the twins last night, along with how he actually managed the bullpen last night when everyone was struggling with command was actually great. Not just correct, I think he did better than most.

I thought Ozzie was a pretty bad game manager overall, but then he managed the perfect playoffs in 05. I'm kinda hoping that Ricky shines in the spotlight. We literally don't know, because he's never been close.

Renteria, to me from afar, seems like a heck of a guy. A guy who grinded the minor league managing jobs for 10 years - which is a shitttttttty career - to get a shot in the big leagues. Earned a chance with the Cubs after 15+ years coaching, then gets handed a shit roster and develops some young guys... nothing bad ever said about him or his clubhouse. Then the Cubs get good and can the guy. He then comes to the Sox, shit roster, never complains - no fighting in house, and everyone likes each other despite years of terrible terrible performance. Team gets good, guys swear by Ricky, he deflects all credit and all attention to the players; guy is literally crying after the Giolito no hitter because of how hard he knew Giolito fought and how much he loves his guys.

People call me a Renteria stan, and while I hate plenty of decisions just like the rest of fans because I'm an "expert" too, you're right that I respect Renteria the coach and would have loved to play for a guy like him as all his players seem to love. That's what matters to most players, but I get why fans overlook something like that - which in baseball, means so much more than anything else.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, Green Line said:

This makes no sense at all.  Its burying your head in the sand because things are going well, ignoring the fact that our manager is making awful decisions along the way.  Yes, the guys are playing well IN SPITE of bone headed decisions from the manager.  There is no "statistical evidence" of anything there.  Cease has been incredibly lucky this year.  So have many other pitchers in the bullpen.  What you're saying is to ignore all of this because things have been going right over the past 30 or so games.  Mind boggling.

How can someone who is getting results that are much better than projected outcomes be making awful decisions all year?

[bmags]

4 minutes ago, Green Line said:

This makes no sense at all.  Its burying your head in the sand because things are going well, ignoring the fact that our manager is making awful decisions along the way.  Yes, the guys are playing well IN SPITE of bone headed decisions from the manager.  There is no "statistical evidence" of anything there.  Cease has been incredibly lucky this year.  So have many other pitchers in the bullpen.  What you're saying is to ignore all of this because things have been going right over the past 30 or so games.  Mind boggling.

RR was pretty bad the first two weeks. He's been pretty normie manager since. It's really not worth the energy you guys put into it.

We haven't been bunting. We haven't been stealing stupidly. And our bullpen management has been exceptionally difficult due to our starting situation, and he's done a pretty damn good job there.

 

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, bmags said:

The tigers and royals are only awful because they had to play us 20 times so far.

Considering they are .500 against they rest of their games, it is an argument to be made.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

@Green Line, what do you think the Sox results/stats/record would be with a GOOD manager by your definition who made optimal moves?

Edited September 15, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

How can someone who is getting results that are much better than projected outcomes be making awful decisions all year?

Yeah, even with Sox fans guesses outpacing Vegas, it looks like the team will still win more than most Sox fans guessed.

 

[mqr]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Considering they are .500 against they rest of their games, it is an argument to be made.

The Twins and Indians certainly aren't having as easy a time dealing with them. 

[Green Line]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

@Green Line, what do you think the Sox results/stats/record would be with a GOOD manager by your definition who made optimal moves?

The same, I said as much above.  They are winning in spite of him.  That won’t always be the case.  Over the course of a 162 game season Ricky won’t look so pretty, just as he hasn’t over his past 10 years managing in the big leagues or whatever it is.  Youre arguing that things are fine RIGHT NOW, which nobody disagrees with.

[hi8is]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

@Green Line, what do you think the Sox results/stats/record would be with a GOOD manager by your definition who made optimal moves?

42 - 0.

[southsider2k5]

22 minutes ago, Green Line said:

The same, I said as much above.  They are winning in spite of him.  That won’t always be the case.  Over the course of a 162 game season Ricky won’t look so pretty, just as he hasn’t over his past 10 years managing in the big leagues or whatever it is.  Youre arguing that things are fine RIGHT NOW, which nobody disagrees with.

4 + this one.

[Green Line]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

4 + this one. 

Wow.  It feels like too long.

[SonofaRoache]

46 minutes ago, mqr said:

 

Also worth noting that the coach plays a MUCH more integral part to the sports you mentioned and stale ideas can become a problem. 

I disagree with most on this. One player can't carry a team in baseball and managing is important. Having the most optimal lineup, pitching managing and care, defensive adjustments, situational awareness, etc are critical. In basketball and football, having a Hall of Fame wing and great quarterback means you will be good for a very long time regardless of coach and overall talent. If you have another good player or two to compliment those two stars, you will be very good as a team.