Jonathan Stiever Discussion Thread

[YourWhatHurts]

I just wanted to start this.  He has stayed up since his last start and he hasn't come out of the pen, which makes me hopeful he will get at least another start.

I just want to say that I believe the perfect world upside on this guy is a #1 SP.  I don't care if other people think that is absurd.  I just want to say it now before everyone else does.  The FB velocity and control with the potentially deadly breaking ball and an emerging changeup along with the build / body type makes me see this guy as the type who is going to be capable of being efficient with this pitches and of working deep into his starts.  I'm not a pitching coach or anything but there's nothing seemingly glaring about him mechanically.  The nerves in the 1st inning didn't bother me.  The way he settled down was very impressive and more telling IMO.

Don't be afraid to get on the Stiever bandwagon.

[southsider2k5]

I am excited about Stiever.  I think from the White Sox perspective, JS is here on a precautionary reaction to the health of Rodon, and the questionable status of ReyLo.  I don't think they want him starting playoff games, but might need to.

[bmags]

I’m still confused if we have until the 20th now to make the decision. It’s a pretty tough call to me, ideally he’s only up until Keuchel is reinstated.

[oldsox]

7 minutes ago, bmags said:

I’m still confused if we have until the 20th now to make the decision. It’s a pretty tough call to me, ideally he’s only up until Keuchel is reinstated.

He can have one more start until Decision Day.  If he pitches well again, it's not a very tough decision.

[ptatc]

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am excited about Stiever.  I think from the White Sox perspective, JS is here on a precautionary reaction to the health of Rodon, and the questionable status of ReyLo.  I don't think they want him starting playoff games, but might need to.

Agreed. If he gets another start and shows the control of his last couple of innings, they may use him in the playoffs. While its a little scary the Sox may have significant contributions from a number of rookies in the playoffs. Dunning, Robert, Madrigal, Heuer, Foster, Stiever. Good sign for the future.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I think the players are making one hell of a case for why service time manipulation and the minor league hold downs in general are completely meaningless; this year has allowed so many guys that were supposedly a year or two away to show that they're not actually that far off at all.

The gap between elite amateurs and professionals may be closing in baseball.

[southsider2k5]

14 minutes ago, bmags said:

I’m still confused if we have until the 20th now to make the decision. It’s a pretty tough call to me, ideally he’s only up until Keuchel is reinstated.

Yeah, I think his status is more tied to the health of others than his own.  If Rodon and Dallas are back and healthy, his road to a playoff roster is very small.

With Fry back and seemingly healthy, I think the bottom two pitchers on the current roster are JS and ReyLo.  The other guy who might be in question is Cishek, as he is on a one year deal with an option, though I can't see them leaving him off of the playoff roster in favor of Stiever.  The other option would be for them to leave off a position player for an extra pitcher, so a guy like Yolmer would probably be the pick to remove, but I can't see that.

[ChiSox59]

I haven’t studied the pitching rotation to see how to lineup up Gio and Keuchel for the playoffs, but maybe they’re going to go with a 6 man rotation to close out the season to help facilitate that. 

With ReyLo and JS still on the active roster, appears they’ll both make a start this weekend. Otherwise what’s the point of holding them up?

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I think the players are making one hell of a case for why service time manipulation and the minor league hold downs in general are completely meaningless; this year has allowed so many guys that were supposedly a year or two away to show that they're not actually that far off at all.

The gap between elite amateurs and professionals may be closing in baseball.

I think it is for pitchers as injuries are an unknown variable. I still think it matters for hitters. Keeping salaries down makes a difference in the longterm for most teams.

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

I haven’t studied the pitching rotation to see how to lineup up Gio and Keuchel for the playoffs, but maybe they’re going to go with a 6 man rotation to close out the season to help facilitate that. 

With ReyLo and JS still on the active roster, appears they’ll both make a start this weekend. Otherwise what’s the point of holding them up?

Roster management just in case one of Rodon or Dallas can't go.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think it is for pitchers as injuries are an unknown variable. I still think it matters for hitters. Keeping salaries down makes a difference in the longterm for most teams.

After a season like this one, watching pennies on your payroll might actually be MORE important than ever, especially with many teams maybe needing to cut payroll.

[ptatc]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

After a season like this one, watching pennies on your payroll might actually be MORE important than ever, especially with many teams maybe needing to cut payroll.

Very true.

[Tnetennba]

3 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I haven’t studied the pitching rotation to see how to lineup up Gio and Keuchel for the playoffs, but maybe they’re going to go with a 6 man rotation to close out the season to help facilitate that. 

With ReyLo and JS still on the active roster, appears they’ll both make a start this weekend. Otherwise what’s the point of holding them up?

If Stiever stays in the rotation and ReyLo gets a start in the Cincinnati and Cubs series it lines up for Gio & DK to open the Wild Card round on regular rest. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I think it is for pitchers as injuries are an unknown variable. I still think it matters for hitters. Keeping salaries down makes a difference in the longterm for most teams.

Yeah, good point; definitely worse for pitchers. They should be up earlier.

To expand on Stiever - I'm actually doing a research piece on pitchers like Stiever right now - there's a lot of reason to be really excited about Stiever. 

In the game today, we have become obsessed with youth velocity - reality is, you're better off not having your high school/college guys throwing their peak velocities at that age - you want guys to grow into velocity in pro-ball with proper former and teachings. Stiever actually has a LOT in common with the elite starters in baseball over the past decade +; what exactly? Well:

1. Northern kid who didn't throw over 90 MPH as a high school pitcher (he threw 88 at PG)
2. Went to a midwest school and didn't have the wear and tear of constant pitching. He was also an all-state Wide Receiver so he DID NOT play baseball year round. This is a major key. He played baseball during baseball season up north.
3. Played travel ball but took falls off - winters mostly as well. The wear and tear on Stievers arm today is similar to that of a high school kid in the south or out west.
4. He has grown into his velocity in pro-ball - Steiver has NEVER thrown harder in his life than he has this year and last. This is a huge key to Stiever's success; guys who throw 95-100 in high school and college are NOT holding up. The velocity too young is just an issue; an issue I would avoid.

Look at at the list of top starters over the last decade; they all grew into velocity. None of them were throwing 100 MPH in high school - even Stras who started throwing 100 in college wasn't doing it in high school.

Verlander (not a big prospect out of high school)
Greinke (played SS a lot and didn't have peak velocity until the minor leagues)
SCherzer (Took him years to find velocity and command in professional ball)
Sale (Came into velocity in pro ball)
Kershaw (Started throwing harder as a professional than amateur)
Cole (Found more velocity after draft)
Stras was a stud but he was nothing out of high school

I have found that the best pitchers in the game typically weren't throwing 100 MPH in high school or even early college. Velocity can destroy a young arm.

The combination of Stiever pitching up north, playing football, and coming into his velocity as a professional has been a heck of a predictor of elite big league success. I'm not saying that'll be Stiever, but the pedigree there is really exciting. Northern kids who don't throw over 90 MPH as kids but develop as pitchers first and then find big velocity have gone on to be elite arms in baseball over and over again.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[ptatc]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, good point; definitely worse for pitchers. They should be up earlier.

To expand on Stiever - I'm actually doing a research piece on pitchers like Stiever right now - there's a lot of reason to be really excited about Stiever. 

In the game today, we have become obsessed with youth velocity - reality is, you're better off not having your high school/college guys throwing their peak velocities at that age - you want guys to grow into velocity in pro-ball with proper former and teachings. Stiever actually has a LOT in common with the elite starters in baseball over the past decade +; what exactly? Well:

1. Northern kid who didn't throw over 90 MPH as a high school pitcher (he threw 88 at PG)
2. Went to a midwest school and didn't have the wear and tear of constant pitching. He was also an all-state Wide Receiver so he DID NOT play baseball year round. This is a major key. He played baseball during baseball season up north.
3. Played travel ball but took falls off - winters mostly as well. The wear and tear on Stievers arm today is similar to that of a high school kid in the south or out west.
4. He has grown into his velocity in pro-ball - Steiver has NEVER thrown harder in his life than he has this year and last. This is a huge key to Stiever's success; guys who throw 95-100 in high school and college are NOT holding up. The velocity too young is just an issue; an issue I would avoid.

Look at at the list of top starters over the last decade; they all grew into velocity. None of them were throwing 100 MPH in high school - even Stras who started throwing 100 in college wasn't doing it in high school.

Verlander (not a big prospect out of high school)
Greinke (played SS a lot and didn't have peak velocity until the minor leagues)
SCherzer (Took him years to find velocity and command in professional ball)
Sale (Came into velocity in pro ball)
Kershaw (Started throwing harder as a professional than amateur)
Cole (Found more velocity after draft)
Stras was a stud but he was nothing out of high school

I have found that the best pitchers in the game typically weren't throwing 100 MPH in high school or even early college. Velocity can destroy a young arm.

The combination of Stiever pitching up north, playing football, and coming into his velocity as a professional has been a heck of a predictor of elite big league success. I'm not saying that'll be Stiever, but the pedigree there is really exciting. Northern kids who don't throw over 90 MPH as kids but develop as pitchers first and then find big velocity have gone on to be elite arms in baseball over and over again.

Multi sport athlete is one of the best predictors in lower injury rates. It changes the stresses on the body and no one area is overused

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Could Stiever potentially come out of the bullpen during the playoffs?

[SoCalChiSox]

10 minutes ago, SouthWallace said:

If Stiever stays in the rotation and ReyLo gets a start in the Cincinnati and Cubs series it lines up for Gio & DK to open the Wild Card round on regular rest. 

The problem with no off days in the playoffs is if we advanced we would have to start Cease and prolly Rodon and ReyLo/Stiever in the ALDS first three which is horrific.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

Multi sport athlete is one of the best predictors in lower injury rates. It changes the stresses on the body and no one area is overused

Yeah, I'm a big proponent of this. 

When I was growing up, kids played multiple sports. Kids feel so much pressure today to play year round because they're scared they'll miss reps or being noticed. It's awful. When I was growing up I played with Kipnis and Bowden. Both guys played football and didn't play baseball year round. I think Kip was an all-state receiver, but I could be wrong on that. That shit helps

I think it helps big time as well; you use other muscles and you allow your baseball body to heal a bit while strengthening the core around it. 

My favorite thing about Stiever is he played two sports - really well too - and he has grown into his pitchers body. He's really exciting because his arm doesn't have the drain and his velocity could continue to grow. Look at DeGrom for another example of a guy who came into velocity as a pro. Corey Kluber another guy who grew into his stuff. Those two went to freakin' STetson for god sakes.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Tnetennba]

1 minute ago, SoCalChiSox said:

The problem with no off days in the playoffs is if we advanced we would have to start Cease and prolly Rodon and ReyLo/Stiever in the ALDS first three which is horrific.

There are multiple off days between the WC round and LDS.  Sox will be able to line up their rotation for the ALDS.  Only one off day between ALDS & ALCS hurts them if they can't close out in 3 or 4. 

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Could Stiever potentially come out of the bullpen during the playoffs?

Problem is will we know whether he'll come out looking like his first inning where his nerves worked against him or his settled down version?

[Tnetennba]

 

6 minutes ago, SoCalChiSox said:

The problem with no off days in the playoffs is if we advanced we would have to start Cease and prolly Rodon and ReyLo/Stiever in the ALDS first three which is horrific.

3 minutes ago, SouthWallace said:

There are multiple off days between the WC round and LDS.  Sox will be able to line up their rotation for the ALDS.  Only one off day between ALDS & ALCS hurts them if they can't close out in 3 or 4. 

Wild Card best of 3 ends on 10/1.  ALDS doesn't start until 10/5. 

Edited September 16, 2020 by SouthWallace

[Tnetennba]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Problem is will we know whether he'll come out looking like his first inning where his nerves worked against him or his settled down version?

I would be more inclined to keep him in the rotation even on a short leash and use Rodon or ReyLo out of the pen.  IMO Those two probably don't factor into the future rotation and need to adjust to new roles anyway. 

[SoCalChiSox]

7 minutes ago, SouthWallace said:

 

Wild Card best of 3 ends on 10/1.  ALDS doesn't start until 10/5. 

Oh nice I didn't know that

[bmags]

12 minutes ago, SouthWallace said:

I would be more inclined to keep him in the rotation even on a short leash and use Rodon or ReyLo out of the pen.  IMO Those two probably don't factor into the future rotation and need to adjust to new roles anyway. 

Yeah. I was really happy we got to see Stiever on Sunday and liked what I saw. I just don't know that there is enough time for me to trust him with a playoff performance yet.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

If Lopez starts before him, we revolt