Fire Ricky

[caulfield12]

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/sports/joe-espada-manager.html
 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/cubs/ct-chicago-cubs-joe-espada-things-to-know-20191023-trgvioydhvcdvfkgrv7ugq6i44-story.html
Pay close attention to Point 8.

 

https://jaysjournal.com/2018/10/20/blue-jays-joe-espada-case/
 

https://metsmerizedonline.com/2019/10/mets-manager-candidate-joe-espada.html/
 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/texas-sports-nation/astros/article/While-awaiting-chance-to-manage-Joe-Espada-vital-15071990.php

 

[Kyyle23]

15 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Salary: $4.2 million
Team: Cleveland Indians (2020)
Record: 1,667–1,409
Accolades: 2× World Series champion (2004, 2007), 2× AL Manager of the Year (2013, 2016)

Terry Francona has proven to be one of the greatest masterminds in the history of baseball. He's got a bit of the Midas' touch when it comes to developing winning cultures wherever he's gone.

That's why the Cleveland Indians don't mind paying him $4.2 million a year in hopes he can replicate the success he had at Fenway Park. He's going to be highly coveted once his contract runs out.

Should also be noted Yost at $3.7 million, Scioscia at $6 million and Maddon at $6 million, Bruce Bochy at $6 million.

https://us.bolavip.com/mlb/highest-mlb-manager-salaries-ever-20200723-0003.html
 

 

Girardi and Maddon might both be higher than that right now, fwiw.   Francona deal runs through 2022, right around the time Indians would lose Lindor and Jose Ramirez.

Finally, should Sox fans now add up all the money we’ve wasted on free agency over that time, as well as Hahn/KW combined salaries and Don Cooper?  Can’t we just once have a “top five” manager in our lifetimes?  Why do we always get sloppy seconds, or thirds, in the case of Robin Ventura?

What?

[caulfield12]

39 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

What?

They were always so proud to cite Hahn as the highest paid “second in command“ before taking over the GM reigns in 2013.
 

Can anyone explain why we’ve never had a manager paid in/among the Top Five salaries in MLB since arguably the late 1950’s/early 1960’s (Lopez)?

And how in God’s name can the Indians and Royals (Yost at $3.7 million in his final season) afford to do that, with two of the lowest MLB regional broadcasting rights deals?    When you throw in Baldelli, Matheny and Gardenhire into the mix, we’re likely fifth in managerial salaries despite having the biggest market in the AL Central.  

If it’s close, the salary battle will be Baldelli vs. Renteria.

Edited September 25, 2020 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

They were always so proud to cite Hahn as the highest paid “second in command“ before taking over the GM reigns in 2013.
 

Can anyone explain why we’ve never had a manager paid in/among the Top Five salaries in MLB since arguably the late 1950’s/early 1960’s (Lopez)?

And how in God’s name can the Indians and Royals (Yost at $3.7 million in his final season) afford to do that, with two of the lowest MLB regional broadcasting rights deals?    When you throw in Baldelli, Matheny and Gardenhire into the mix, we’re likely fifth in managerial salaries despite having the biggest market in the AL Central.  

If it’s close, the salary battle will be Baldelli vs. Renteria.

Dude nobody was proud to cite any of that about Hahns salary.  How does adding up all of the salaries of all those different individuals within the organization with different jobs do anything for an argument that the Sox need to hire the right person for this job.

nobody gives a shit about first highest or second highest salary right now. They give a shit about COMPETENCE.  Fuck Ned Yost, that team won in spite of his dumb ass, he is the foremost reason why the top salary shouldn't fucking matter.

[SkokieSox]

RR has lost the fan base, but I have to believe that he’s losing the clubhouse as well. They might like him, but they’re competitors first and foremost.

[Harry Chappas]

The idea that Cooper and Renteria just fly by the seat of their pants and use no analytics is incredible.  

I still think the bullpen usage since they clinched ahs been scripted like spring training.

I am also tired of hearing how the bullpen arms are worn out.  The bullpen can get worn out over a long season not over a 60 season.....60 games in you begin to talk about how the bullpen will be worn out at this rate.

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

I don’t get how we can so quickly cut bait on pitchers but never guys like EE or Mazara...

Hahn stubbornness?

Like having to prove we were right about Rodon after all this time...that he could be the next Andrew Miller, blah blah. Well, maybe if he had any fastball command, could throw sliders with runners on base without wild pitches/PB and not continue to walk at least 1 hitter per inning.

Finally, we reward Engel’s big hit this week by starting Dyson, who can no longer steal a base at will?

Edited September 25, 2020 by caulfield12

[bmags]

No superstar managers. 

[MiddleCoastBias]

 

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

No superstar managers. 

Then for once pick the next guy like Jirschele who COULD quickly become one...

I’m not so sure guys like Cora, Hinch, Roberts, Beltran, etc., are superstars.   Bochy, Showalter, Scioscia, Girardi and Maddon fit that bill to a T.

Edited September 25, 2020 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

If they are going to fire Renteria, then they should go ahead and fire a few others (including some sacred cows)  while they're at it.   It's the bad hitting that has put Renteria in a position to make poor decisions.

[Dominikk85]

2 hours ago, Sarava said:

I would agree that he's more likely to come back than get canned. But to say zero percent chance is not accurate. The world isn't just black or white. For all we know, KW, Reinsdorf or Hahn could be sitting there watching the games getting pissed off just like all us fans are at all his headscratching decisions.

Ricky's experimenting with Rodon might very well cause the Sox to play the Yankees in the first round, instead of hosting the Blue Jays or Astros.

And most of all, Reinsdorf has invested a lot in this rebuild. If they don't feel like he's the guy to lead it, this winter is the time to make the move. You can't assume the window is going to be open wider 2 or 3 years down the line. Other rebuild teams have come to later realize that their initial spurts of success were their best chances.

Maybe Zero is not accurate but I would say under 10%. I mean has there been a single case where a manager wins sub 75 games one year and over 90 the next getting fired the very same year? Ricky made some bad decisions but in the end they still outperformed the zips/pecota preseason projection by several games. There is simply almost no precedent of a manager getting fired in that scenario. 

Managers have been (rarely) fired after 90 win seasons but that was when the team was coming of several 90 win seasons and missed the playoffs.

I think Ricky very likely keeps his job even if the white sox would be swept and if they advance a round obviously he is brought back 100%.

The only way I see him getting fired is if the sox lose the next 3 and then get embarrassingly swept like losing every game by 5+ runs.

But as it stands now the sox will have a drastically improved record compared to last season and Rick is also the front runner to win  the manager of the year.

[Quin]

8 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

If they are going to fire Renteria, then they should go ahead and fire a few others (including some sacred cows)  while they're at it.   It's the bad hitting that has put Renteria in a position to make poor decisions.

Look, again, we know you don't watch baseball, but the offense is in a slump. It's a 60 game season. Menechino has done fine with the offense this year.

The most positive thing you've said this year is "If Crochet is a reliever, then my assessment of him as a bad draft pick will be correct."

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

If they are going to fire Renteria, then they should go ahead and fire a few others (including some sacred cows)  while they're at it.   It's the bad hitting that has put Renteria in a position to make poor decisions.

Blaming the hitting is ridiculous.  The hitting has been amongst the best in baseball outside of the last week or so despite two guys clearly being impacted by COVID and a rookie finally hitting the wall.  Only Ricky is to blame for his bad decision making.

[Rowand44]

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

Look, again, we know you don't watch baseball, but the offense is in a slump. It's a 60 game season. Menechino has done fine with the offense this year.

The most positive thing you've said this year is "If Crochet is a reliever, then my assessment of him as a bad draft pick will be correct."

They're scuffling big time but Cleveland is also arguably the best pitching staff in the American League so there's that.  Look, we need the offense to be better come next week but this team was in position to win at least 2 of these games in this last series and Ricky screwed the pooch here, there's just no debate there.

[oldsox]

The way he handled the bottom of the seventh inning, it looked like Rickey was tanking again.

[GreenSox]

33 minutes ago, Quin said:

Look, again, we know you don't watch baseball, but the offense is in a slump. It's a 60 game season. Menechino has done fine with the offense this year.

The most positive thing you've said this year is "If Crochet is a reliever, then my assessment of him as a bad draft pick will be correct."

I didn't say fire Menechino - I said fire sacred cows if you are going to fire Renteria. (I know, it was a complex sentence).  My statement was accurate:  poor hitting has put pressure  on bullpen decisions.  **Edit - the other thing is that 3 participants in the pen have barely pitched all season, putting further pressure on the decisions.  

Across the season, both the pitching and hitting have been fine.

Yes, I know, yall are right - high draft picks are best used to find the next Alexei and relief pitchers.    Yall got me.

Edited September 25, 2020 by GreenSox

[turnin' two]

I didn't read the entire thread.  I'm just here to say that this series was managed just about as poorly as it possibly could have been.  That's all I've got.  Thanks.

[turnin' two]

1 hour ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

 

Weren't Cub fans pretty happy with Ricky?  I remember he took pretty significant steps with that team and the only reason he was fired was that Maddon, who was one of, if not the the top manager (at least in terms of cache) at the time?  I don't remember any clamoring for Ricky to be fired for anything he did, Maddon was just the "it" manager at the time.  

 

I do love the Predator reference though.  It is quite awesome.

Edited September 25, 2020 by turnin' two

[sullythered]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Then for once pick the next guy like Jirschele who COULD quickly become one...

I’m not so sure guys like Cora, Hinch, Roberts, Beltran, etc., are superstars.   Bochy, Showalter, Scioscia, Girardi and Maddon fit that bill to a T.

I think the no minor league season thing really monkey-wrenched us on the Jirschele plan.  If I had to guess, it was gonna be "give him a year at Birmingham, then time for The Show".  It's probably scary for Hahn bringing his boy up directly from single A, no matter how much of a prodigy he is.  I hope he does it, though. 

[daggins]

Before last night I would have said any talk of firing Renteria was hyperbolic.

Putting Rodon in a position to fail like that, coming off an injury that cost him most of the season, is inexcusable.

I'm sure i'm just repeating what's already been said, but it's so frustrating to see winnable games thrown away like that. Test Rodon, sure, but not in THAT spot.

[Perfect Vision]

I haven't read the entire thread, but here are my thoughts:

Ricky should be fired.  I don't say that with anger or emotion.  Just a matter-of-fact statement.  He's an objectively poor manager who consistently makes objectively poor decisions.  His best attribute (unironically) has always been "he speaks Spanish."  Well, can anyone really say that's benefitted Robert or Moncada or Lopez this year??  Would they have performed worse with a non-Spanish speaking manager?  Unlikely.

With all of that said, the Sox front office still needs to do this the right way.  They need to wait until after the season to let Ricky go, and say all the right things when they do.  As satisfying as it would be to see him fired today, that sends a terrible signal to future would-be managers.  No manager wants to take a job where they know a previous manager has been fired mid-season for a bad decision the prior game.

[SonofaRoache]

The only way this man's job should be safe is if we advance to the ALCS. If we win the first round, and lose the ALDS, I'd be open to the idea depending on how we looked in the ALDS. No ALDS should be an automatic fire before he gives his end of season speech to the players. 

[daggins]

I like Ricky as a person and as a "personality manager" but the point of this whole thing is to WIN GAMES, and he failed both Carlos and the Sox, badly.

[Dick Allen]

Ricky's use of the bullpen has scratched heads ever since he was managing the Cubs. So that is not going to change. They are 1 game out of first despite a horrible road trip. A couple of nice games to close it out would be fun.

I don't think they would even consider firing him, as this is how he has run a bullpen his entire managerial career. It is no surprise. The front office obviously thinks his positves, which he certainly has, outweighs the negatives. But running a bullpen is critical.