Wasted Money This Year

[South Side Hit Men]

12 hours ago, Quin said:

Oh yeah, it's not good. Just including Mazara is pointless.

Also, @South Side Hit Men's "original value" post is worthless because we're not in a full length season where players get a regular season to adjust, rest, etc.

Posted the full salaries because previous posts including with "Mods", or other posters, are unaware of the actual salaries paid this season.

This six players identified as "completely worthless" were all negative WAR players.

[Dominikk85]

9 hours ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

I was wrong about a couple of the acquisitions. I thought that Cishek was going to be the arm we needed in the BP.

I also "didn't hate" the Mazara trade, but I should have. He's a supposed hit-first corner OFer who cant really hit; a guy who needs a platoon partner; a guy who needs a defensive sub, and a baserunning sub.

Other than that, he was ok. But then, Hahn squandered a prospect to get him, on top of all of that. So yes, I was wrong. I should have HATED that move. I certainly do now.

I never hated the mazara move. If he was what he was the last 3 years (105 wrc+ against RHP, Can't hit LHP) he would have been fine but for whatever reason (illness, injury, mechanics, mental?) he couldn't do that. 

But hahn couldn't have known that, you don't expect a 25-26 year old who was rather consistent (on a mediocre level of course) to decline that much, if anything you either hope he is the same or even slightly improves.

A 2017-2019 mazara against RHP and engel against LHP would have been a decent albeit not spectacular platoon, I liked the thinking at the time. Can't blame hahn for that.

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 hours ago, Dominikk85 said:

I never hated the mazara move. If he was what he was the last 3 years (105 wrc+ against RHP, Can't hit LHP) he would have been fine but for whatever reason (illness, injury, mechanics, mental?) he couldn't do that. 

But hahn couldn't have known that, you don't expect a 25-26 year old who was rather consistent (on a mediocre level of course) to decline that much, if anything you either hope he is the same or even slightly improves.

A 2017-2019 mazara against RHP and engel against LHP would have been a decent albeit not spectacular platoon, I liked the thinking at the time. Can't blame hahn for that.

They ABSOLUTELY could have known that Mazara had a probable downturn in performance in coming here from Texas. 

Park Factors

Globe Life was the 2nd most hitter friendly park in MLB, after only Coors Field. In fact, Globe Life's park factor was closer to Coors Field than it was to most of the rest of the AL parks. Think about that for a second. (I'm guessing KW didn't bother to do so.)

With that in mind, his performances should have been viewed with a similar suspicion as any Colorado Rockies FA. They also knew that he needed a platoon partner, and that he can't move his feet; the latter makes him a shitty fielder with little range, and a liability on the basepaths.

Still, they saw all of that, and decided, "yeah, we'll TRADE a piece to get the right to overpay him for a year or two!"

 

But again, this front office is lead by someone with only a high school diploma.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Two-Gun Pete

[caulfield12]

47 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

They ABSOLUTELY could have known that Mazara had a probable downturn in performance in coming here from Texas. 

Park Factors

Globe Life was the 2nd most hitter friendly park in MLB, after only Coors Field. In fact, Globe Life's park factor was closer to Coors Field than it was to most of the rest of the AL parks. Think about that for a second. (I'm guessing KW didn't bother to do so.)

With that in mind, his performances should have been viewed with a similar suspicion as any Colorado Rockies FA. They also knew that he needed a platoon partner, and that he can't move his feet; the latter makes him a shitty fielder with little range, and a liability on the basepaths.

Still, they saw all of that, and decided, "yeah, we'll TRADE a piece to get the right to overpay him for a year or two!"

 

But again, this front office is lead by someone with only a high school diploma.

Why is KW the one who is assumed to be responsible for this particular trade?    

We've seen plenty of evidence that he and Paddy were heavily involved with Abreu and Robert, to cite other examples...but does Hahn then receive the full credit because those two, along with McCann and Keuchel, actually worked out well ?

 

Unfortunately, the most logical move, and one that would have us now celebrating an AL Central (sort of title) would have been Kole Calhoun.  And it's not like Mazara was ever going to be a 3-4 fWAR player in a full season, we were just HOPING for maybe 1.  In reality, guys like Calhoun that are pretty much reliable for 1.5-2.5 (and definitely outproduced those this year) become the enemy of the elusive young/impact player we keep chasing (Avi for years/Betts/Springer/Pederson, etc.)    Marte makes a lot of sense.   Ozuna, likely now has outpriced himself out of Sox market, along with adding the Grandal/Keuchel salaries.

Edited September 29, 2020 by caulfield12

[Two-Gun Pete]

26 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Why is KW the one who is assumed to be responsible for this particular trade?    

We've seen plenty of evidence that he and Paddy were heavily involved with Abreu and Robert, to cite other examples...but does Hahn then receive the full credit because those two, along with McCann and Keuchel, actually worked out well ?

Nah, thats a fair point.

I suppose that my view was/is that a trade for a corner OFer who came from the AL equivalent of Coors Field, and who needs a platoon partner, a defensive sub, and a pinch runner was SO fvkcing stoooopud that it could have only been authorized by a guy who doesnt understand numbers. 

So, I assumed it was noted HS graduate KW who did so.  But to your point, Rick Hahn has done just as many moronic deals over his tenure.

 

Let's split the difference, and just fvkcing fire all those assholes, because theyre all just too stoooopud. Fair enough?

[ron883]

9 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Nah, thats a fair point.

I suppose that my view was/is that a trade for a corner OFer who came from the AL equivalent of Coors Field, and who needs a platoon partner, a defensive sub, and a pinch runner was SO fvkcing stoooopud that it could have only been authorized by a guy who doesnt understand numbers. 

So, I assumed it was noted HS graduate KW who did so.  But to your point, Rick Hahn has done just as many moronic deals over his tenure.

 

Let's split the difference, and just fvkcing fire all those assholes, because theyre all just too stoooopud. Fair enough?

Imagine having this outlook after this season and with the young talent this team has. Sad.

[Jerksticks]

11 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

Nah, thats a fair point.

I suppose that my view was/is that a trade for a corner OFer who came from the AL equivalent of Coors Field, and who needs a platoon partner, a defensive sub, and a pinch runner was SO fvkcing stoooopud that it could have only been authorized by a guy who doesnt understand numbers. 

So, I assumed it was noted HS graduate KW who did so.  But to your point, Rick Hahn has done just as many moronic deals over his tenure.

 

Let's split the difference, and just fvkcing fire all those assholes, because theyre all just too stoooopud. Fair enough?

What does noted HS graduate mean?

[Two-Gun Pete]

Just now, Jerksticks said:

What does noted HS graduate mean?

It means that KW is now the only team president among major North American sports who has not successfully graduated from college. Even an Associates Degree from a junior college.

It means that he fails to pack the intellectual and educational gear that is necessary for his role, IMO.

[NWINFan]

2 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Imagine having this outlook after this season and with the young talent this team has. Sad.

It is sad especially with some of the excitement this season. However, fans still have to wonder what will happen next. Will the team spend money and spend it wisely? Will the young talent continue to develop? One phase of the rebuild is done. Let's see what the FO does with the next phase.

[Two-Gun Pete]

3 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Imagine having this outlook after this season and with the young talent this team has. Sad.

its possible to be happy with the team, while at the same time, irritated at an acquisition and those responsible for it.

Just like one can have a hatred for Abreu, while being happy with the team's outcomes.

[Dominikk85]

Mazara does have some home road splits but even if you don't think much of Hahn and Williams you can assume they did check home road splits.

Mazara still had a .751 career road ops against righties 16-19 which is not great but playable 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Dominikk85

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 minute ago, Dominikk85 said:

Mazara does have some home road splits but even if you don't think much of Hahn and Williams you can assume he did check home road splits.

Mazara still had a .751 career road ops against righties 16-19 which is not great but playable 

Ok. Is that worth trading for, AND paying $5mm this season, especially since he needs a platoon partner?

Also, look at the defensive stats, particularly, range factors and DRS. Good teams catch the ball in the OF. Were his defensive numbers worth trading for?

And then look at this team. You've already got a number of current and future DH types in the roster. Did this club need another (supposedly) hit-first corner OFer?

In sum, I don't believe that Mazara was a fit, nor was he worth the acquisition or payroll costs. Particularly given that there were other, better options that were available for just payroll, and similar payroll numbers. YMMV.

[ron883]

13 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

It is sad especially with some of the excitement this season. However, fans still have to wonder what will happen next. Will the team spend money and spend it wisely? Will the young talent continue to develop? One phase of the rebuild is done. Let's see what the FO does with the next phase.

I get it, but this guy is calling for the whole FO to be fired when the future looks extremely bright. It's just silly.

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

I get it, but this guy is calling for the whole FO to be fired when the future looks extremely bright. It's just silly.

Some people are just to miserable too enjoy what is right in front of them.

[Jerksticks]

16 minutes ago, Two-Gun Pete said:

It means that KW is now the only team president among major North American sports who has not successfully graduated from college. Even an Associates Degree from a junior college.

It means that he fails to pack the intellectual and educational gear that is necessary for his role, IMO.

Eh.  I don’t think there’s some definitive correlation between college graduation and intelligence though. 
 

Look at Illinois- there are only a few smart schools that arguably require intelligence to get into- UIUC, U Chicago, Northwestern.  
 

The other 100 or so colleges in Illinois just require money/debt and a chimpanzee-level ACT score.  This group makes up the absolute vast majority of college graduates each year across the country.  Of course, most people fall somewhere between chimpanzee and the bar set by smart schools.  So what does graduating college actually mean?  
 

Is a chimpanzee with money more qualified than KW?  Maybe lol, maybe.   But I sure wouldn’t cite general college graduation as evidence.   I would bet that most of those GMs went to tough ass schools which would be a better argument.  

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Eh.  I don’t think there’s some definitive correlation between college graduation and intelligence though. 
 

Look at Illinois- there are only a few smart schools that arguably require intelligence to get into- UIUC, U Chicago, Northwestern.  
 

The other 100 or so colleges in Illinois just require money/debt and a chimpanzee-level ACT score.  This group makes up the absolute vast majority of college graduates each year across the country.  Of course, most people fall somewhere between chimpanzee and the bar set by smart schools.  So what does graduating college actually mean?  
 

Is a chimpanzee with money more qualified than KW?  Maybe lol, maybe.   But I sure wouldn’t cite general college graduation as evidence.   I would bet that most of those GMs went to tough ass schools which would be a better argument.  

Not sure what part of a college education taught me how to evaluate baseball talent...

[turnin' two]

5 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Not sure what part of a college education taught me how to evaluate baseball talent...

It doesn't, but it makes you smarter.  There are no stupid people that graduated from college.  Plus, college graduates never make bad decisions.  So that stuff would have helped.  

[caulfield12]

13 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Eh.  I don’t think there’s some definitive correlation between college graduation and intelligence though. 
 

Look at Illinois- there are only a few smart schools that arguably require intelligence to get into- UIUC, U Chicago, Northwestern.  
 

The other 100 or so colleges in Illinois just require money/debt and a chimpanzee-level ACT score.  This group makes up the absolute vast majority of college graduates each year across the country.  Of course, most people fall somewhere between chimpanzee and the bar set by smart schools.  So what does graduating college actually mean?  
 

Is a chimpanzee with money more qualified than KW?  Maybe lol, maybe.   But I sure wouldn’t cite general college graduation as evidence.   I would bet that most of those GMs went to tough ass schools which would be a better argument.  

We've had the playing time/professional experience argument with KW vs. Hahn before...do Kellogg, Michigan and Harvard Law outdo Billy Beane, for example?

NO WAY.

If you look at all the big impact moves even of the last decade, plus.   Alexei Ramirez, Floyd, Danks, Quentin, Gio Gonzalez, Semien/Tatis/Montas/Bassitt, Sale, Quintana, Eaton, Jose Abreu, Luis Robert...in addition to all the scouting work behind the three 2016-2017 cycle megatrades, KW was involved quite intimately with every one of those moves.   A lot of his trades backfired, but the talent evaluation in the first place was quite often on the money.

Now the amateur draft is a totally different situation, but KW's a pretty darned good judge of talent if he has the money to spend.  Sure, we've struck out on guys like Viciedo and Beckham, but, all things considered, I would put his actual eye for talent/judgement against all but the Top 6-8 execs in the game.

[caulfield12]

22 minutes ago, Jerksticks said:

Eh.  I don’t think there’s some definitive correlation between college graduation and intelligence though. 
 

Look at Illinois- there are only a few smart schools that arguably require intelligence to get into- UIUC, U Chicago, Northwestern.  
 

The other 100 or so colleges in Illinois just require money/debt and a chimpanzee-level ACT score.  This group makes up the absolute vast majority of college graduates each year across the country.  Of course, most people fall somewhere between chimpanzee and the bar set by smart schools.  So what does graduating college actually mean?  
 

Is a chimpanzee with money more qualified than KW?  Maybe lol, maybe.   But I sure wouldn’t cite general college graduation as evidence.   I would bet that most of those GMs went to tough ass schools which would be a better argument.  

The last place I'm going to hire a White Sox GM is from those darned leggheads/economists/law professors at Univ of Chicago, lol...

[southsider2k5]

3 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

It doesn't, but it makes you smarter.  There are no stupid people that graduated from college.  Plus, college graduates never make bad decisions.  So that stuff would have helped.  

And if you want to talk about something like contract negotiations or what not, there are PLENTY of people on staff for that.  This is where Rick Hahn shines, and it sounds like he might have passed it off to Jeremy Haber too.  We also have a load of lawyers, just like any organization does.

[Jerksticks]

40 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Not sure what part of a college education taught me how to evaluate baseball talent...

Lol right?  It was probably that Moraine Valley human sexuality course

Edited September 29, 2020 by Jerksticks

[Quin]

1 hour ago, Jerksticks said:

What does noted HS graduate mean?

He's discounting the guy's two years at Stanford, being drafted, major league experience, tenure as a scout, VP of player development, and as a GM.

He's doing it on purpose.

 

[Jerksticks]

7 minutes ago, Quin said:

He's discounting the guy's two years at Stanford, being drafted, major league experience, tenure as a scout, VP of player development, and as a GM.

He's doing it on purpose.

 

And I’ll say KW comes off as very intelligent when he speaks about anything other than losing out on Machado.   He talks like a president should talk 

[sin city sox fan]

Many of the people being super critical in this thread would have let Abreu walk as well.   Letting the probable AL MVP go for nothing would have been criminal.

[southsider2k5]

27 minutes ago, Quin said:

He's discounting the guy's two years at Stanford, being drafted, major league experience, tenure as a scout, VP of player development, and as a GM.

He's doing it on purpose.

 

Might as well call him "boy" from the direction being taken.