maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: $100 on fathom I think it’s hi8is. Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 7 hours ago, bmags said: I think this is true, but I also don't think it's worth discounting. My thought with madrigal was that his reported incredible baseball IQ would raise the impact of his other skills. It's not just in the majors where he has had an issue with running into outs. I think it may just be adjusting to game speed, but it isn't something I expected needing to be adjusted. But the real question is position value. The difference in cost between a cost controlled second baseman and FA one has to be the smallest of any position in the game. The whole idea that "getting a 2 WAR player for 7 years is huge value" just seems crazy to me when Jose Iglesias keeps doing what he does for sub $5 mill and very little demand. So if there is a chance of getting an impact player back and the cost is Madrigal, and it means we have to go sign a Kolten Wong, it's hard to see how the white sox would not be much better. And the other side of this, is its really hard to take the pro-madrigal people seriously when the only thing they keep harping on is comparing him to hall of fame players from 50-70 years ago. It shouldn't be that hard, and the recent similar players have had...much less impact. OK...I'm the Rod Carew guy...sorry he comes quickly to mind because he had a unique skill set of hitting singles and playing 2b. How about DJ LeMahieu 2016 Rockies 11 HR's (In thin air of Colorado) 11 for 18 stealing bases and put up a 5.8 WAR? Kolton Wong last year in STL had 11 homers and 5.2 WAR playing 2B. Both of those were guys in their late 20's...full grown men...not 23 year old Madrigal. You think Madrigral can't put together a string of those kind of years (like Carew did)?? Last year Rougned Odor was 15th ranked 2b (by OPS) and put up a 0.0 WAR...so there is a BIG difference between a run of the mill second baseman and a 4 WAR guy. I don't think it's crazy talk to think he has a career as good as LeMahieu and he's averaged about 4 WAR per year for the last 7 years and only one year hit more than 15 home runs. So you have a cost controlled 2b that does exactly what you want him to do...hit a lot of singles, field, run, be a smart player. The idea that if we trade him we just pick up a Kolton Wong...according to Cardinals site Wong is the best middle infielder they've had in 30 years and that it was insanity for them to let him go...they cut him because he was going to cost $12.5 mill, is 30 and Covid. If we trade Madrigal we are far more likely to have someone like Sanchez as our 2B and why, oh why, do we want that?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 44 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: I think it’s hi8is. Go fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, hi8is said: Go fish. Hey you claimed last Wednesday that you were Not Cishek. Are you saying now that your pulling our leg? Lol Edited November 9, 2020 by maloney.adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 24 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: OK...I'm the Rod Carew guy...sorry he comes quickly to mind because he had a unique skill set of hitting singles and playing 2b. How about DJ LeMahieu 2016 Rockies 11 HR's (In thin air of Colorado) 11 for 18 stealing bases and put up a 5.8 WAR? Kolton Wong last year in STL had 11 homers and 5.2 WAR playing 2B. Both of those were guys in their late 20's...full grown men...not 23 year old Madrigal. You think Madrigral can't put together a string of those kind of years (like Carew did)?? Last year Rougned Odor was 15th ranked 2b (by OPS) and put up a 0.0 WAR...so there is a BIG difference between a run of the mill second baseman and a 4 WAR guy. I don't think it's crazy talk to think he has a career as good as LeMahieu and he's averaged about 4 WAR per year for the last 7 years and only one year hit more than 15 home runs. So you have a cost controlled 2b that does exactly what you want him to do...hit a lot of singles, field, run, be a smart player. The idea that if we trade him we just pick up a Kolton Wong...according to Cardinals site Wong is the best middle infielder they've had in 30 years and that it was insanity for them to let him go...they cut him because he was going to cost $12.5 mill, is 30 and Covid. If we trade Madrigal we are far more likely to have someone like Sanchez as our 2B and why, oh why, do we want that?? DJ Lemahieu is 6'4, 215 Kolten Wong is short, but 20 pounds heavier. But most importantly, in 1400 PAs in the minors, Kolten Wong hit 33 home runs. In 1400 PAs for Nick Madrigal in college + minors, he hit 12 home runs. So, it was definitely feasible that Kolten Wong's 1 homer per every 44 PA pace would net him 10-12 home runs in the future in tougher competition. 550 PAs would net you that. Nick Madrigal averages a homer every 116 PAs. Sure enough, in 109 PAs this year he had 0 home runs for the white sox. That would put him around 4 a year. So Nick is smaller than those guys or has hit for less power than those guys at similar levels, and does not have the frame to get meaningfully bigger. This is why it's unlikely he'll be a 10+ home run hitter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 hour ago, fathom said: I’ve never even seen Star Wars! Lol...I’m just playing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 40 minutes ago, bmags said: DJ Lemahieu is 6'4, 215 Kolten Wong is short, but 20 pounds heavier. But most importantly, in 1400 PAs in the minors, Kolten Wong hit 33 home runs. In 1400 PAs for Nick Madrigal in college + minors, he hit 12 home runs. So, it was definitely feasible that Kolten Wong's 1 homer per every 44 PA pace would net him 10-12 home runs in the future in tougher competition. 550 PAs would net you that. Nick Madrigal averages a homer every 116 PAs. Sure enough, in 109 PAs this year he had 0 home runs for the white sox. That would put him around 4 a year. So Nick is smaller than those guys or has hit for less power than those guys at similar levels, and does not have the frame to get meaningfully bigger. This is why it's unlikely he'll be a 10+ home run hitter. I'm not arguing that Madrigal will hit a lot of home runs...you argued that he would be a 2 WAR player for 7 years and that wasn't that big of a deal. I'm arguing a bunch of data points of 2b who hit few home runs and put up 5 WAR. But let presume that you are right and Madrigal never hits more than a homer every 100 at bats...so 6 per year. Wong averaged .261 with 10 home runs. The difference between 10 and 6 home runs is 16 bases. Add 16 singles to Wong's batting average and that means Madrigal would have to hit .292 for his career and he would be Wong, right? Again...Card sources say he is their best infielder in 30 years. Add another 20 singles per year (.330) and if Madrigal gains some strength, and improves his defense (Longenhagen praised his defense, ZIPS said he would be a great defender...30 nervous games and Soxtalk says he won't) he's a 4 WAR guy for 7 cost controlled years. It doesn't matter where you add 4 extra WAR but it seems cheap and easy to just keep Madrigal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 Just now, michelangelosmonkey said: I'm not arguing that Madrigal will hit a lot of home runs...you argued that he would be a 2 WAR player for 7 years and that wasn't that big of a deal. I'm arguing a bunch of data points of 2b who hit few home runs and put up 5 WAR. But let presume that you are right and Madrigal never hits more than a homer every 100 at bats...so 6 per year. Wong averaged .261 with 10 home runs. The difference between 10 and 6 home runs is 16 bases. Add 16 singles to Wong's batting average and that means Madrigal would have to hit .292 for his career and he would be Wong, right? Again...Card sources say he is their best infielder in 30 years. Add another 20 singles per year (.330) and if Madrigal gains some strength, and improves his defense (Longenhagen praised his defense, ZIPS said he would be a great defender...30 nervous games and Soxtalk says he won't) he's a 4 WAR guy for 7 cost controlled years. It doesn't matter where you add 4 extra WAR but it seems cheap and easy to just keep Madrigal. He may be as productive as Kolten wong...and kolten wong was just cut. There just never seems to be an issue finding a second baseman that can produce the kind of numbers you are discussing. Last year, there was Schoop, Cesar Hernandez that were easily available. Wong, La Stella, Gregorious, DJ all available this year. I'm also not saying cut madrigal, but if he gets you a piece elsewhere, I'm going to drive him to the airport, and will likely have to escort him all the way to the gate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, bmags said: He may be as productive as Kolten wong...and kolten wong was just cut. There just never seems to be an issue finding a second baseman that can produce the kind of numbers you are discussing. Last year, there was Schoop, Cesar Hernandez that were easily available. Wong, La Stella, Gregorious, DJ all available this year. I'm also not saying cut madrigal, but if he gets you a piece elsewhere, I'm going to drive him to the airport, and will likely have to escort him all the way to the gate. Gregarious has put up 1 WAR combined the last two years and is 30. Schoop has put up 1.5 WAR per year for three years...and he's 29. La Stella has put up 4 WAR in his CAREER and he's 31. DJ is going to make BANK this off season. Wong got cut because he was set to make $12.5 million and COVID year. Cesar Hernandez has put up 1.5 WAR per year for the last three years and he's 30. So if your argument is there are a bunch of replacement level 30 year old 2b out there...agreed...they can easily get us half the WAR of Madrigal for $6 million more per year. All the guys you named outside of Wong and DJ were worth less in WAR than Yolmer the last three years. I don't want Sanchez back at second...I want a super team...and I think Madrigal helps us build to that more than anyone out there (cost + potential WAR). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Gregarious has put up 1 WAR combined the last two years and is 30. Schoop has put up 1.5 WAR per year for three years...and he's 29. La Stella has put up 4 WAR in his CAREER and he's 31. DJ is going to make BANK this off season. Wong got cut because he was set to make $12.5 million and COVID year. Cesar Hernandez has put up 1.5 WAR per year for the last three years and he's 30. So if your argument is there are a bunch of replacement level 30 year old 2b out there...agreed...they can easily get us half the WAR of Madrigal for $6 million more per year. All the guys you named outside of Wong and DJ were worth less in WAR than Yolmer the last three years. I don't want Sanchez back at second...I want a super team...and I think Madrigal helps us build to that more than anyone out there (cost + potential WAR). Yes, exactly, they are all more productive than Madrigal and you can sign them for 1 year deals and go to the next average offensive second baseman on the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YourWhatHurts Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 IMO Javy Vazquez > Yu Darvish People really seem to have a short memory about players on other teams even with much longer memories of players on our team. I know Javy did not have as many "pitches" as Darvish but he had plus to plus-plus FB, CB, CH, SL and at times looked like a guy who could win a Cy Young whenever he wanted to. Mostly he stayed healthy and ate up innings. But mentally? Mush. Yu Darvish is mental mush. He's also had an injury history. Back in midseason 2019 he was still a bad contract. Back in early 2020 he was still in the "what do we really have here?" kind of boat where he felt a whole lot more like a reclamation project than an ace. I'm not wholly against Darvish but no way in hell I give the Cubs a couple of blue chippers for this guy. I don't even give them 1 blue chipper. The best player they can take is Madrigal. Madrigal, Collins, and Dunning, there you go, that's the best deal I'd offer the Cubs. Darvish is the most talented player in the deal but the other 3 could all be decent MLB regulars for 6 years, and Darvish can just as easily turn back into mental mush as he can front our rotation in any one of the years he'd be under contract with us. I still wouldn't really love that deal however. If we're going outside the org for a P we really should hit FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 7 hours ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said: When the Madrigal for Gallen first started popping up I was someone who would have declined then.. I now would change my mind lol.. Still think Madrigal will be a super great player for us. I remember loving that idea when it first came up. As bmags said recently and I probably said at the time trading Madrigal would be no big deal because they are easily replaced for very little money. I think I kept that Gallen /Madrigal conversation going longer than it should have on here just because it was fun to talk about but not realistic. I don't think you were the only one against but a majority were good with it. I was surprised though at the amount of people against it. Seemed like a slam dunk to me when you compare a young starter with indicators pointing up with a guy who hadn't played in the major yet who has never projected to be a run producer and whose OBP was too tied into his batting average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Portillos hamburger has stopped tweeting after finding fame. Maybe he did not want to be discovered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, Orlando said: Portillos hamburger has stopped tweeting after finding fame. Maybe he did not want to be discovered Thanks for ruining it Not Steve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWiN4PreP Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 I'm really opening up to the idea of signing Springer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiddleCoastBias Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) This guy must have figured out that we found PortillosHamburger and is now tweeting. Edited November 10, 2020 by maloney.adam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 Lol Al’s Cheesy Beef? Wth is that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said: I'm really opening up to the idea of signing Springer. Springer would be amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Orlando said: Lol Al’s Cheesy Beef? Wth is that It sounds like they are working off each other and making up twitter names. Al’s Beef is an Italian beef place and has several locations. This is quite strange to say the least. Hahaha Edited November 10, 2020 by maloney.adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, maloney.adam said: It sounds like they are working off each other and making up twitter names. Al’s Beef is an Italian beef place and has several locations. This is quite strange to say the least. Maybe he saw the attention Portillos was getting and is trolling. Still think Portillos is legit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iWiN4PreP Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 one thing is for sure... ... it's going to be one hell of an offseason as long as our White Sox are willing to spend a little bit of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maloney.adam Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 (edited) Btw, I found the account and tweets for Al’s Cheesy Beef on Not Steve Cishek’s account. Not Steve Cishek retweeted the Star Wars photo that Al’s Cheesy Beef posted on his account fwiw. He edited it from the original photo. Edited November 10, 2020 by maloney.adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlando Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 minute ago, maloney.adam said: Btw, I found the account and tweets for Al’s Cheesy Beef on Not Steve Cishek’s account. Not Steve Cishek has retweeted it on his account fwiw. Do other fan bases deal with the amount of bizarre insiders the White Sox fans do? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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