Offseason Targets

[Rowand44]

16 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

What I don't want is to be the Cubs...one WS and a real good half decade and then standing again on the precipice .  I want this team to be a juggernaut and part of that is not trading away key positional pieces before the soufflé has risen.  The fun part of the White Sox right now is people saying "Eloy might be the best hitter on the team" and I think...well...yes but Robert might be...or Moncada or Vaughan...I mean those are four hitters that could be the greatest hitters the White Sox have had in our lifetimes (Excluding Frank Thomas who was an alien).  And that doesn't even count Tim Anderson...who in his last 172 games has hit .333 with 28 homers, 43 doubles and stole 22 bases...at SS...or the rookie 2b that hit .341, or the reigning MVP...or the second best catcher in baseball.  Plus...we have a DOZEN very exciting starting pitchers that are 26 or younger.  Stiever was our top 5 prospect...came in his first ML game and looked amazing and we were all excited...then he got shelled the next game and we never talk about him again????  I say sign Springer who will make our offense and defense elite.  Sign Quintana for cheap and then let Cease and Kopeck and Dunning and Stiever and Crochett and Lambert and Lopez and Kelly and Dahlquist and Thompson with the new hot shot pitching coach fill in four and five.  There's a very real possibility that three of those 10 will be better than Darvish or Woodruff by 2022...and we are set to be the 1970 Cincinnati Reds.          

I'd kill for the Sox to have the run that the Cubs have had the last 6 years.  5 of 6 years in the playoffs, 3 straight NLCS's and a World Series?  Woo buddy, sign me the fuck up!  Look, everyone wants the Sox to be the Dodgers but that just isn't going to happen under current ownership.  If you really wouldn't take what the Cubs have had the last 6 years then you really need to temper expectations.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Rowand44

[poppysox]

16 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

What I don't want is to be the Cubs...one WS and a real good half decade and then standing again on the precipice .  I want this team to be a juggernaut and part of that is not trading away key positional pieces before the soufflé has risen.  The fun part of the White Sox right now is people saying "Eloy might be the best hitter on the team" and I think...well...yes but Robert might be...or Moncada or Vaughan...I mean those are four hitters that could be the greatest hitters the White Sox have had in our lifetimes (Excluding Frank Thomas who was an alien).  And that doesn't even count Tim Anderson...who in his last 172 games has hit .333 with 28 homers, 43 doubles and stole 22 bases...at SS...or the rookie 2b that hit .341, or the reigning MVP...or the second best catcher in baseball.  Plus...we have a DOZEN very exciting starting pitchers that are 26 or younger.  Stiever was our top 5 prospect...came in his first ML game and looked amazing and we were all excited...then he got shelled the next game and we never talk about him again????  I say sign Springer who will make our offense and defense elite.  Sign Quintana for cheap and then let Cease and Kopeck and Dunning and Stiever and Crochett and Lambert and Lopez and Kelly and Dahlquist and Thompson with the new hot shot pitching coach fill in four and five.  There's a very real possibility that three of those 10 will be better than Darvish or Woodruff by 2022...and we are set to be the 1970 Cincinnati Reds.          

I like your thoughts...especially the part about the souffle.?

[bmags]

8 minutes ago, Rowand44 said:

I'd kill for the Sox to have the run that the Cubs have had the last 6 years.  5 of 6 years in the playoffs, 3 straight NLCS's and a World Series?  Woo buddy, sign me the fuck up!  Look, everyone wants the Sox to be the Dodgers but that just isn't going to happen under current ownership.  If you really wouldn't take what the Cubs have had the last 6 years then you really need to temper expectations.

yep. Same. The thing I take away from the dodgers is to only make a trade if it's for a big upgrade, but the REAL takeaway for me between Cubs and Dodgers is that you cannot stop drafting well even if your team is largely made up of young players.

But what cannot be recreated by the sox is having a fairly "conservative" 200 million payroll made up of 35 MLB caliber players and being creative with DL and other tricks to use all of them. They hacked the regular season to make sure they are always in the playoffs.

Cubs post-mortem, for me I think they got a little bit unlucky. Had they gotten Darvish and Heywards 2019/20 production in 2017 and 2018, they likely make the WS again. But they became productive when their young core started to have some unfortunate injuries and they had maxed out improvements.

They made some big mistakes but not sure they should have been as crippling as they were had it not been for some unfortunate declines during prime years.

[Flash]

Eloy turns 24 in a week and Burnes turned 26 3 weeks ago so trying to present a 3 yr age difference is BS. Everybody knows Burnes sucked in 2019. What you might not realize is he was on pace for over 6 WAR in 2020. I get dinged here everytime I cite surplus value as a relevant metric but guess who's is higher? I will even go so far as to say, if he stays healthy (big if), he will compete for the Cy Young. I'm okay with the philosophy of some posters that the relative value of an impact bat is worth more than an impact pitcher but let's not suggest Burnes isn't a difference maker. If we could find a way to get him w/o offering Eloy or another core piece, great but as I have already submitted, Burnes would have greater impact on our ability to win now than just about any other current player, including Eloy, and if any one here cares to wager who will finish '21 with higher WAR total (assuming both stay healthy), I'm your man. 

[fathom]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

yep. Same. The thing I take away from the dodgers is to only make a trade if it's for a big upgrade, but the REAL takeaway for me between Cubs and Dodgers is that you cannot stop drafting well even if your team is largely made up of young players.

But what cannot be recreated by the sox is having a fairly "conservative" 200 million payroll made up of 35 MLB caliber players and being creative with DL and other tricks to use all of them. They hacked the regular season to make sure they are always in the playoffs.

Cubs post-mortem, for me I think they got a little bit unlucky. Had they gotten Darvish and Heywards 2019/20 production in 2017 and 2018, they likely make the WS again. But they became productive when their young core started to have some unfortunate injuries and they had maxed out improvements.

They made some big mistakes but not sure they should have been as crippling as they were had it not been for some unfortunate declines during prime years.

For all the talk about the Cubs not developing pitching, it was the absolutely collapse of their offense in numerous seasons that hurt their chances to win another title. Baez, Bryant and Rizzo all had a tendency to collapse.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

For all the talk about the Cubs not developing pitching, it was the absolutely collapse of their offense in numerous seasons that hurt their chances to win another title. Baez, Bryant and Rizzo all had a tendency to collapse.

This will sound dumb now because the cheating, but what they needed to do is what the post 16 astros did, which was diversify their offense with less huge power, big K hitters (even with the walks) and get hitters that could put the bat on the ball. Who knows what happens if the cubs sign a Lemahieu instead of the yanks (well, for one Lemahieu would have way less homers). That's not enough in and of itself, but it needed less all or nothing.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Another one!

[ron883]

1 minute ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Another one!

Nancy's does have some of the best feel dish. Art of Pizza and Panino's are phenomenal as well

[Sleepy Harold]

33 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Another one!

I was wondering why a pizza account on twitter followed me, makes a lot more sense now lol. 

[bmags]

Nancys buffalo chicken pizza was a huge part of my teenage years that I think I would vom if I was within 5 feet of it now.

[bmags]

Zips puts Pederson at 116 OPS+ next year, and a decent favorable for Jimmy Nelson

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2021-zips-projections-los-angeles-dodgers/

[Sleepy Harold]

Hey, they did something

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 hours ago, Rowand44 said:

I'd kill for the Sox to have the run that the Cubs have had the last 6 years.  5 of 6 years in the playoffs, 3 straight NLCS's and a World Series?  Woo buddy, sign me the fuck up!  Look, everyone wants the Sox to be the Dodgers but that just isn't going to happen under current ownership.  If you really wouldn't take what the Cubs have had the last 6 years then you really need to temper expectations.

Sitting where we are sitting right now...the Cubs run is your upper limit?   4 more years of play offs in the next five years, one WS appearance and then rebuild again? We have twenty very exciting players that are 26 or less.   Sure I would take it...but as the floor not the ceiling. The question is how do you reach the ceiling and I think its way too early in the process to start trading Madrigal or Eloy for some flashy pitcher.  For this year you spend money only, you sign Springer and Quintana...or Bauer and nothing...and then be patient.       

[iWiN4PreP]

Should we sign Hunter Renfroe? Good defense + power, but right handed

[fathom]

2 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Should we sign Hunter Renfroe? Good defense + power, but right handed

There are 29 other teams more likely to sign him, and probably teams overseas as well.

[Chicago White Sox]

3 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Should we sign Hunter Renfroe? Good defense + power, but right handed

No

[fathom]

4 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Should we sign Hunter Renfroe? Good defense + power, but right handed

Wait, you said “we”, do you mean Padres bringing him back?  

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 minutes ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Should we sign Hunter Renfroe? Good defense + power, but right handed

He looks like Palka....four out of five years he's had a negative dWar.   .220 hitter that doesn't walk but hits a ton of home runs.   Why does ANYONE want that? 

  

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

He looks like Palka....four out of five years he's had a negative dWar.   .220 hitter that doesn't walk but hits a ton of home runs.   Why does ANYONE want that? 

  

One more .220 hitter with power and I think I will lose it.  Will we never learn?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

13 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Sitting where we are sitting right now...the Cubs run is your upper limit?   4 more years of play offs in the next five years, one WS appearance and then rebuild again? We have twenty very exciting players that are 26 or less.   Sure I would take it...but as the floor not the ceiling. The question is how do you reach the ceiling and I think its way too early in the process to start trading Madrigal or Eloy for some flashy pitcher.  For this year you spend money only, you sign Springer and Quintana...or Bauer and nothing...and then be patient.       

Have you done the math on your expectations ? How long does Keuchel last, or Giolito ? How many years are our core hitters signed for? What if we have already seen Moncada's best year and due to Covid he is never the same player ? What if none of the pitchers you listed becomes a TOR starter ? How does COVID play out in developing pitchers to pitch full seasons? Will the CBA be a major disruption ?

If you want to talk upper limits, fine.  I want to win the World Series every year in our competitive years starting last year. Reality tells me for a franchise that has never gone to the playoffs in back to back years that having a Cubs type run will be the actual upper limit. You need a lot of luck and a pretty big payroll to keep a core together for your dynasty . Every year you make the playoffs winning the World Series should be the goal. Patience only gets you unfortunate decision making and purposeful lack of a killer instinct with this franchise that constantly puts the team behind the 8 ball.

Put your dream behind you and hope we can win 1 World Series in the next 3 years. If you want to talk about a floor I can think of a lot worse.

Edited November 21, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Harry Chappas]

If the White Sox win 88+ games the next 6 years it will be a success because every day will be enjoyable over the next 6 years. 

As far as Theo goes I compare him to Bowman in some regard.  Had some powder to start with and got to spend on FA but could not sustain it.

 

 

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Have you done the math on your expectations ? How long does Keuchel last, or Giolito ? How many years are our core hitters signed for? What if we have already seen Moncada's best year and due to Covid he is never the same player ? What if none of the pitchers you listed becomes a TOR starter ? How does COVID play out in developing pitchers to pitch full seasons? Will the CBA be a major disruption ?

If you want to talk upper limits, fine.  I want to win the World Series every year in our competitive years starting last year. Reality tells me for a franchise that has never gone to the playoffs in back to back years that having a Cubs type run will be the actual upper limit. You need a lot of luck and a pretty big payroll to keep a core together for your dynasty . Every year you make the playoffs winning the World Series should be the goal. Patience only gets you unfortunate decision making and purposeful lack of a killer instinct with this franchise that constantly puts the team behind the 8 ball.

Put your dream behind you and hope we can win 1 World Series in the next 3 years. If you want to talk about a floor I can think of a lot worse.

Cali...say it ain't so.  You too?   Not THIS team. Not THIS talent pool.  This is the wrong time to race for a ring by trading key pieces.   In 1971 the Oakland A's had 

25 Year olds CF Rick Monday, RF Reggie Jackson, C Dave Duncan, Catfish Hunter,

24 year olds RP- Rollie Fingers, C Gene Tenace and RF Joe Rudi

21 year old VP ida Blue.  

They got swept out of the playoffs that year.  You think there weren't A's fans saying...let's trade our back up catcher Gene Tenace (35 WAR in the next 7 years) and failed relief pitcher Rollie Fingers who's K/9 was less than 7 that year and had less than one WAR a year for his first three years (future WS MVP, CY young winner, MVP winner, Hall of famer) to Baltimore for 29 year old 22 game winner and total workhorse Pat Dobson?  Or trade hot dog Reggie Jackson who is a below average defensive outfielder and struck out 161 times (39 WAR next 7 years) and minor league catcher Jim Sundberg (18 WAR next 7 years) for 25 game winner Mickey Lolich, #2 in CYA...who was really good for two more years.      

In the next four years the A's went to the playoffs 4 times and won three world series...and then their idiot owner sold all their players. That could have been one of the greatest runs in sports history.

I think that is us right now...and yes...the White Sox chartered plane could crash...bad things happen.  But generally your pool of talent is like the White Sox in 1993...25 year old Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura, 23 year old Alex Fernandez and Wilson Alvarez and 22 year old Jason Bere and then older pieces.  That's six guys under 26 and I was SO excited about that team.  We have fifteen.  There is still time to settle for the good team run...but when you have a shot at a super team run don't you have to go for it??   

 

[Rowand44]

17 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Sitting where we are sitting right now...the Cubs run is your upper limit?   4 more years of play offs in the next five years, one WS appearance and then rebuild again? We have twenty very exciting players that are 26 or less.   Sure I would take it...but as the floor not the ceiling. The question is how do you reach the ceiling and I think its way too early in the process to start trading Madrigal or Eloy for some flashy pitcher.  For this year you spend money only, you sign Springer and Quintana...or Bauer and nothing...and then be patient.       

You’re just being unrealistic.  Half the players you mentioned in your original post haven’t even proven to be major league players.  If you think we’re about to have some 10 year run of World Series and playoff appearances, you’re just wrong.  That’s not how this works.  The Cubs run isn’t our floor, that’s the ceiling.  

[fathom]

8 minutes ago, Rowand44 said:

You’re just being unrealistic.  Half the players you mentioned in your original post haven’t even proven to be major league players.  If you think we’re about to have some 10 year run of World Series and playoff appearances, you’re just wrong.  That’s not how this works.  The Cubs run isn’t our floor, that’s the ceiling.  

Since the start of 2015, I think they’ve only played 4 games during the regular season where they weren’t in playoff contention. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by fathom

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, Rowand44 said:

You’re just being unrealistic.  Half the players you mentioned in your original post haven’t even proven to be major league players.  If you think we’re about to have some 10 year run of World Series and playoff appearances, you’re just wrong.  That’s not how this works.  The Cubs run isn’t our floor, that’s the ceiling.  

Respectfully disagree here.  The Cubs run is neither our ceiling or floor as our possible range of outcomes is much wider than that IMO.