Offseason Targets

[michelangelosmonkey]

39 minutes ago, Rowand44 said:

You’re just being unrealistic.  Half the players you mentioned in your original post haven’t even proven to be major league players.  If you think we’re about to have some 10 year run of World Series and playoff appearances, you’re just wrong.  That’s not how this works.  The Cubs run isn’t our floor, that’s the ceiling.  

Yes I'm being unrealistic as are you.  You don't know the future...I don't know the future.  For you to categorically say that the best we could possibly hope for is one WS and four more playoffs in the next five years before having to rebuild is nonsense.  At no point in my life have the White Sox assembled this much talent.  Luis Robert's upside is Ken Griffey Jr...of COURSE his downside is out of the league in two years.  Vaughan's upside is Frank Thomas of COURSE his downside is never making it.  There has never been a White Sox 2b where I thought...hmmm...his upside is Rod Carew...of course he could be nothing.  Moncada put up a 5 WAR at 24.   Eloy at 23 has hit .280 with 45 homer runs in 175 games.  Tim Anderson...at 27 has hit .330 with 28 homers and 40 doubles in the last 170 games.  Sure you can say this core is no better than the Cubs core of 2015 that included Rizzo, Russel, Castro, Baez, Schwarber, Soler, Bryant all 26 or younger....and they WERE an amazing core...and they had a GREAT run.  But what the Cubs didn't have is a dozen exciting young pitchers all younger than 26.  Please tell me again that Cease, Kopek, Gio, Crochett, Kelly, Dunning, Stiever, Lambert, Lopez, Thompson, Pinklington and Dahlquist...is just a normal collection of young starting pitchers.  If you can't see the POTENTIAL for elite pitching, elite hitting and elite defense in this group.   Fine.  My view of the future is WAY more fun than yours.   

[maloney.adam]

Not Steve Cishek tweeted that Kopech’s fastball is at 97-99 mph with good control, elite spin and ride on fastball but the club is cautiously optimistic and still active in the SP market. Also tweeted that Springer is still there top target and they are working on signing him in the near future. Al’s cheesy beef tweeted that the Sox are looking to add two SP’s this offseason. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by maloney.adam

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Cali...say it ain't so.  You too?   Not THIS team. Not THIS talent pool.  This is the wrong time to race for a ring by trading key pieces.   In 1971 the Oakland A's had 

25 Year olds CF Rick Monday, RF Reggie Jackson, C Dave Duncan, Catfish Hunter,

24 year olds RP- Rollie Fingers, C Gene Tenace and RF Joe Rudi

21 year old VP ida Blue.  

They got swept out of the playoffs that year.  You think there weren't A's fans saying...let's trade our back up catcher Gene Tenace (35 WAR in the next 7 years) and failed relief pitcher Rollie Fingers who's K/9 was less than 7 that year and had less than one WAR a year for his first three years (future WS MVP, CY young winner, MVP winner, Hall of famer) to Baltimore for 29 year old 22 game winner and total workhorse Pat Dobson?  Or trade hot dog Reggie Jackson who is a below average defensive outfielder and struck out 161 times (39 WAR next 7 years) and minor league catcher Jim Sundberg (18 WAR next 7 years) for 25 game winner Mickey Lolich, #2 in CYA...who was really good for two more years.      

In the next four years the A's went to the playoffs 4 times and won three world series...and then their idiot owner sold all their players. That could have been one of the greatest runs in sports history.

I think that is us right now...and yes...the White Sox chartered plane could crash...bad things happen.  But generally your pool of talent is like the White Sox in 1993...25 year old Frank Thomas and Robin Ventura, 23 year old Alex Fernandez and Wilson Alvarez and 22 year old Jason Bere and then older pieces.  That's six guys under 26 and I was SO excited about that team.  We have fifteen.  There is still time to settle for the good team run...but when you have a shot at a super team run don't you have to go for it??   

 

The Big Red Machine , those Oakland teams, it was a different era . Even cheap owners like Charlie Finley could put a good team together. The only thing I have to go on is the 125 year history of this franchise and when you go that long without making the playoffs in 2 consecutive years and only have 2 championships in over 100 years well I will take another championship any year.

Keep dreaming big. I always remain hopeful better days are to come but it is tempered by realistic optimism . It's just too hard too win championship. The Dodgers as much money as they have ,hadn't won one since 1988.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

39 minutes ago, maloney.adam said:

Not Steve Cishek tweeted that Kopech’s fastball is at 97-99 mph with good control, elite spin and ride in the fastball but the club is cautiously optimistic and still active in the SP market. Also tweeted that Springer is still there top target and they are working on signing him in the near future. Al’s cheesy beef tweeted that the Sox are looking to add two SP’s this offseason. 

The last fastball Kopech threw for the Sox in spring training was 101 and 6 of 11 pitches were 100+

[ron883]

50 minutes ago, maloney.adam said:

Not Steve Cishek tweeted that Kopech’s fastball is at 97-99 mph with good control, elite spin and ride in the fastball but the club is cautiously optimistic and still active in the SP market. Also tweeted that Springer is still there top target and they are working on signing him in the near future. Al’s cheesy beef tweeted that the Sox are looking to add two SP’s this offseason. 

Not Steve cishek said it? It must be true then. 

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The Big Red Machine , those Oakland teams, it was a different era . Even cheap owners like Charlie Finley could put a good team together. The only thing I have to go on is the 125 year history of this franchise and when you go that long without making the playoffs in 2 consecutive years and only have 2 championships in over 100 years well I will take another championship any year.

Keep dreaming big. I always remain hopeful better days are to come but it is tempered by realistic optimism . It's just too hard too win championship. The Dodgers as much money as they have ,hadn't won one since 1988.

I think the Dodgers are the best cautionary tale...we've been hearing for 10 years they have the best farm system, unlimited budget and a lot of good major league players and they have one WS win.  I'm not going to die if they have a Cubs run...my only point is...don't trade Madrigal and Eloy for and $200 million in budget for a pitcher like Darvish who is one bad pitch away from the abyss.   I 100% am OK with them trading Stiever and Kelly and maybe that Tatis kid for Darvish...just don't sell the family silver just yet.    

[Saufley]

36 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I think the Dodgers are the best cautionary tale...we've been hearing for 10 years they have the best farm system, unlimited budget and a lot of good major league players and they have one WS win.  I'm not going to die if they have a Cubs run...my only point is...don't trade Madrigal and Eloy for and $200 million in budget for a pitcher like Darvish who is one bad pitch away from the abyss.   I 100% am OK with them trading Stiever and Kelly and maybe that Tatis kid for Darvish...just don't sell the family silver just yet.    

Oh no!! Trading a Tatis.  I wouldn't think the Sox would ever make that mistake again. 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by Saufley

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes I'm being unrealistic as are you.  You don't know the future...I don't know the future.  For you to categorically say that the best we could possibly hope for is one WS and four more playoffs in the next five years before having to rebuild is nonsense.  At no point in my life have the White Sox assembled this much talent.  Luis Robert's upside is Ken Griffey Jr...of COURSE his downside is out of the league in two years.  Vaughan's upside is Frank Thomas of COURSE his downside is never making it.  There has never been a White Sox 2b where I thought...hmmm...his upside is Rod Carew...of course he could be nothing.  Moncada put up a 5 WAR at 24.   Eloy at 23 has hit .280 with 45 homer runs in 175 games.  Tim Anderson...at 27 has hit .330 with 28 homers and 40 doubles in the last 170 games.  Sure you can say this core is no better than the Cubs core of 2015 that included Rizzo, Russel, Castro, Baez, Schwarber, Soler, Bryant all 26 or younger....and they WERE an amazing core...and they had a GREAT run.  But what the Cubs didn't have is a dozen exciting young pitchers all younger than 26.  Please tell me again that Cease, Kopek, Gio, Crochett, Kelly, Dunning, Stiever, Lambert, Lopez, Thompson, Pinklington and Dahlquist...is just a normal collection of young starting pitchers.  If you can't see the POTENTIAL for elite pitching, elite hitting and elite defense in this group.   Fine.  My view of the future is WAY more fun than yours.   

I agree with your optimism...for the foreseeable future.  If nothing else it is a lot more fun than the "if it can go wrong it will go wrong" attitude.  I was thinking recently of the early 1960's teams on which my favorite player was Floyd Robinson who could hit in the low .300's with a dozen HRs and about 60 RBIs.  Man,  I thought he was great.  We now have a whole lineup that is watchable...not just a player or two.  The bottom third of the 2021 lineup would be the heart of the order on a great number of teams I have rooted for.  Fingers crossed...these are the first years of a dynasty!

[michelangelosmonkey]

21 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I agree with your optimism...for the foreseeable future.  If nothing else it is a lot more fun than the "if it can go wrong it will go wrong" attitude.  I was thinking recently of the early 1960's teams on which my favorite player was Floyd Robinson who could hit in the low .300's with a dozen HRs and about 60 RBIs.  Man,  I thought he was great.  We now have a whole lineup that is watchable...not just a player or two.  The bottom third of the 2021 lineup would be the heart of the order on a great number of teams I have rooted for.  Fingers crossed...these are the first years of a dynasty!

Remember the Bill Veeck days?  When we would have an exciting player like Richie Zisk or Oscar Gamble...and after a good year Veeck would sell them off for cash to keep the lights on.  There have been MANY dark days in this franchise.  The team in 1976 #1 hitter with more than 250 at bats had a .735 OPS.  The home run leader had 14.   The sun seems to be shining brightly and I for one am going to enjoy it.  

[poppysox]

1 minute ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Remember the Bill Veeck days?  When we would have an exciting player like Richie Zisk or Oscar Gamble...and after a good year Veeck would sell them off for cash to keep the lights on.  There have been MANY dark days in this franchise.  The team in 1976 #1 hitter with more than 250 at bats had a .735 OPS.  The home run leader had 14.   The sun seems to be shining brightly and I for one am going to enjoy it.  

Yep! ?

[Saufley]

54 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Remember the Bill Veeck days?  When we would have an exciting player like Richie Zisk or Oscar Gamble...and after a good year Veeck would sell them off for cash to keep the lights on.  There have been MANY dark days in this franchise.  The team in 1976 #1 hitter with more than 250 at bats had a .735 OPS.  The home run leader had 14.   The sun seems to be shining brightly and I for one am going to enjoy it.  

Zisk wasn't traded or sold. After the 1977 season he signed  a 10 year contract with Texas. Sox couldn't compete with that. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

58 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Remember the Bill Veeck days?  When we would have an exciting player like Richie Zisk or Oscar Gamble...and after a good year Veeck would sell them off for cash to keep the lights on.  There have been MANY dark days in this franchise.  The team in 1976 #1 hitter with more than 250 at bats had a .735 OPS.  The home run leader had 14.   The sun seems to be shining brightly and I for one am going to enjoy it.  

I am slightly psychotic when it comes to the Sox. I will almost always stick up for the young players when others bad mouth them. I always think they can be fixed when things go sour. I am very empathetic to a young person's struggles trying to adjust to being among the best of the best . It's so easy to claim someone sucks and to even find valid reasons to think so. But  I have to throw that old tired cliche out there about development not being linear.

However, there does come a time while waiting for the popcorn to pop that the fly's are all over your pie. Since development isn't linear there is no telling how long some of the pitchers you mentioned will take to contribute great years during the window of opportunity . Most of them can't even get the opportunity to pitch meaningful innings yet because of the pandemic. When it comes down to it ,the Pandemic could affect the Sox chances more then anything else because it's screwing with key developmental time not to mention how it affects Moncada and anyone else who catches it.

I also do not possess the same empathy for the owner or front office that I do for the youngsters.

Edited November 21, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[WBWSF]

56 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Remember the Bill Veeck days?  When we would have an exciting player like Richie Zisk or Oscar Gamble...and after a good year Veeck would sell them off for cash to keep the lights on.  There have been MANY dark days in this franchise.  The team in 1976 #1 hitter with more than 250 at bats had a .735 OPS.  The home run leader had 14.   The sun seems to be shining brightly and I for one am going to enjoy it.  

I couldn't believe it when I heard that Veeck was voted into the MLB HOF. The press always loved Veeck. I couldn't understand it. I thought he was a lousy owner. 

[Saufley]

3 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I couldn't believe it when I heard that Veeck was voted into the MLB HOF. The press always loved Veeck. I couldn't understand it. I thought he was a lousy owner. 

Just the opposite! Didn't have the money to compete but there sure was fun at the old ballpark. He actually cared about the average fan.

[ThirdGen]

16 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I couldn't believe it when I heard that Veeck was voted into the MLB HOF. The press always loved Veeck. I couldn't understand it. I thought he was a lousy owner. 

Veeck deserves his spot in the HOF for his contributions changing the atmosphere of the game to a fan oriented experience.  He was, however, a bad judge of baseball talent and drove the White Sox from a pennant winner into mediocrity his first time here and had no chance to compete his second.

However, we would probably all be A's fans today without his efforts, and for that we should be grateful.

[WBWSF]

3 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

Veeck deserves his spot in the HOF for his contributions changing the atmosphere of the game to a fan oriented experience.  He was, however, a bad judge of baseball talent and drove the White Sox from a pennant winner into mediocrity his first time here and had no chance to compete his second.

However, we would probably all be A's fans today without his efforts, and for that we should be grateful.

Other than he saved the White Sox franchise from being moved after the 1975 season, his ownerships with the White Sox can't be looked upon as successful. There weren't too many tears shed when he sold the team after the 1980 season. Its never talked about but Veeck wanted to move the team to Denver after the 1980 season. The American League wouldn't go for it and the team remained in Chicago.

Edited November 22, 2020 by WBWSF

[ThirdGen]

5 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Other than he saved the White Sox franchise from being moved after the 1975 season, his ownerships with the White Sox can't be looked upon as successful. There weren't too many tears shed when he sold the team after the 1980 season. Its never talked about but Veeck wanted to move the team to Denver after the 1980 season. The American League wouldn't go for it and the team remained in Chicago.

Veeck's health was also a big reason the move to Denver was averted.  As I understand it he would have run the team with financing from Marvin Davis.  But Veeck's health had deteriorated to the point where that wasn't reasonable.  They supposedly had a handshake agreement on a lease for Mile HIgh Stadium.

[South Side Hit Men]

30 minutes ago, Saufley said:

Just the opposite! Didn't have the money to compete but there sure was fun at the old ballpark. He actually cared about the average fan.

Bill Veeck owned the White Sox for seven years, winning the AL Pennant (one of the two they have won in the past 100 years), and saving the team from moving to Seattle. He also loved fans and players, and left the White Sox with a great young core and excellent management with his hire of Roland Hemond.

In forty years, Jerry Reinsdorf won a single pennant and threatened to move to Tampa if he didn't get hundreds of millions of dollars for his capital costs, and he detests fans and most players. Jerry Reinsdorf fired Roland Hemond, despite his 1983 Division title, with "his guy" Hawk Harrelson. Hawk's season was a complete mess. The one move Hawk did that was correct, shit-canning Tony LaRussa, was undone by Jerry this off-season. He was the main reason 1994 was cancelled, the White Sox' second best team in 40 years. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by South Side Hit Men

[WBWSF]

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Bill Veeck owned the White Sox for seven years, winning the AL Pennant (one of the two they have won in the past 100 years), and saving the team from moving to Seattle. He also loved fans and players.

In forty years, Jerry Reinsdorf won a single pennant and threatened to move to Tampa if he didn't get hundreds of millions of dollars for his capital costs, and he detests fans and most players.

I think its  fair to say that the White Sox franchise has had some lousy owners.

[ThirdGen]

8 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Other than he saved the White Sox franchise from being moved after the 1975 season, his ownerships with the White Sox can't be looked upon as successful. There weren't too many tears shed when he sold the team after the 1980 season. Its never talked about but Veeck wanted to move the team to Denver after the 1980 season. The American League wouldn't go for it and the team remained in Chicago.

 

3 minutes ago, South Side Hit Men said:

Bill Veeck owned the White Sox for seven years, winning the AL Pennant (one of the two they have won in the past 100 years), and saving the team from moving to Seattle. He also loved fans and players.

In forty years, Jerry Reinsdorf won a single pennant and threatened to move to Tampa if he didn't get hundreds of millions of dollars for his capital costs, and he detests fans and most players.

Veeck bought the pennant winning team during spring training 1959. He didn't build that team.  He did, however, tear it apart afterward.  Veeck also tried to move the team, albeit much more quietly than Reinsdorf.

[maloney.adam]

 

[Dam8610]

I don't understand why the strategy isn't Bauer and Pederson. The organization made a clear indication of a move to analytics, at least in the pitching department, with the hiring of Ethan Katz. I think Bauer would not only provide a TOR starter, but also accelerate this process and possibly help young pitchers like Cease, Dunning, Lopez, Kopech, Crochet, etc. make the adjustments they need to make to get the most out of their talent. Several of these young arms are going to be important to the White Sox putting together an elite pitching staff to go with their elite lineup. This is to say nothing of adding a true #1 starter to the rotation. As for Pederson, am I the only one who sees signing him as getting at worst 75-80% of what Springer would provide with 0% of the cheating concerns and at about 25-40% of the cost? Both are players who have played CF and displayed good power and ability to hit. Both are considered to be players that will need to move to a corner OF position going forward. Pederson is younger, left handed (which fits the lineup better), and had an atrocious 2020 line that was heavily influenced by a .200 BABIP. A more normal BABIP even for Pederson's standard would bring him right back in to the same offensive production range as Springer. With the group the White Sox have, the RF they sign just needs to be a quality starter who can hit 7th or 8th in the lineup, be a legitimate offensive threat, and not be a butcher in the field. Pederson fits that bill.

So why does this not seem to be the strategy the White Sox are pursuing? I thought the whole point of this whole process was to save money and accumulate talent so that when the time was right, the final key piece or two of the puzzle could be put into place. The time is right. This team has two holes, a TOR starter and a RF, and the market has aligned perfectly to provide those two things. Now is the time to execute the plan and not let Steve Cohen stand in the way.

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, Dam8610 said:

I don't understand why the strategy isn't Bauer and Pederson. The organization made a clear indication of a move to analytics, at least in the pitching department, with the hiring of Ethan Katz. I think Bauer would not only provide a TOR starter, but also accelerate this process and possibly help young pitchers like Cease, Dunning, Lopez, Kopech, Crochet, etc. make the adjustments they need to make to get the most out of their talent. Several of these young arms are going to be important to the White Sox putting together an elite pitching staff to go with their elite lineup. This is to say nothing of adding a true #1 starter to the rotation. As for Pederson, am I the only one who sees signing him as getting at worst 75-80% of what Springer would provide with 0% of the cheating concerns and at about 25-40% of the cost? Both are players who have played CF and displayed good power and ability to hit. Both are considered to be players that will need to move to a corner OF position going forward. Pederson is younger, left handed (which fits the lineup better), and had an atrocious 2020 line that was heavily influenced by a .200 BABIP. A more normal BABIP even for Pederson's standard would bring him right back in to the same offensive production range as Springer. With the group the White Sox have, the RF they sign just needs to be a quality starter who can hit 7th or 8th in the lineup, be a legitimate offensive threat, and not be a butcher in the field. Pederson fits that bill.

So why does this not seem to be the strategy the White Sox are pursuing? I thought the whole point of this whole process was to save money and accumulate talent so that when the time was right, the final key piece or two of the puzzle could be put into place. The time is right. This team has two holes, a TOR starter and a RF, and the market has aligned perfectly to provide those two things. Now is the time to execute the plan and not let Steve Cohen stand in the way.

I think that IS the strategy.  The problem is there is one Bauer and probably a dozen suitors.  Like Wheeler last year you can even offer the most money and at that level there are non-money considerations.  What if the Sox offer 2-$80 and someone comes in and offers 6-$200.  Bauer has claimed the "one year deal" did we not try hard enough?   Until the process plays out it is too early to say this isn't our plan.  Still a Springer/Quintana with a trade of three 22 year old pitchers for Lance Lynn would be a nice option too.  

[ThirdGen]

11 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I think its  fair to say that the White Sox franchise has had some lousy owners.

Pretty much all of them, which is remarkable at 120 years old.

[Dam8610]

12 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I think that IS the strategy.  The problem is there is one Bauer and probably a dozen suitors.  Like Wheeler last year you can even offer the most money and at that level there are non-money considerations.  What if the Sox offer 2-$80 and someone comes in and offers 6-$200.  Bauer has claimed the "one year deal" did we not try hard enough?   Until the process plays out it is too early to say this isn't our plan.  Still a Springer/Quintana with a trade of three 22 year old pitchers for Lance Lynn would be a nice option too.  

No it wouldn't, especially not that last part. Trading that much young pitching for 34 year old Lance Lynn sounds terrible to me.