Offseason Targets

[smellysox]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

 

Lol! My apologies.  Not trying  to get everyone worked up. Just trying to understand the context of why Sherman would say that. 

[Chicago White Sox]

11 minutes ago, smellysox said:

Lol! My apologies.  Not trying  to get everyone worked up. Just trying to understand the context of why Sherman would say that. 

I’m all fucking in now.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Sherman said this is an article today...

"It generally comes down to dollars and cents, and Cohen has the most of that and is operating in a field in which just the Blue Jays, White Sox and perhaps one or two other clubs are revved up to spend in this market."

[South Side Hit Men]

On 11/28/2020 at 12:37 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Ok Mr. Know-It-All . Perhaps you are the attorney that can prove collusion beyond a shadow of a doubt. A least I can admit I am ignorant whereas you seem to know every teams financial status and that owners are conspiring to hold down salaries. You're just an armchair quarterback like the rest of us with an over inflated opinion of your own opinion. You may have the last word on the subject.

 

On 11/28/2020 at 9:50 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Nice theory but a pretty hot take. Billionaires screwing the multimillionaires that they are paying. Both sides have powerful people with each trying to squeeze every dime out of the other. We can't even begin to understand how much money the players or owners make  As employees, the players are pampered unbelievably compared to how the rest of America's working force is treated. They get the best medical care .

It's a very rare thing that people are actually happy in their jobs and doing something they love that doesn't put them in a foul mood when they get home to the people that love them the most. I love the game and since childhood admire the athletes right or wrong in doing so. I have been vocal about Reinsdorf's reign at the helm but that doesn't mean I'm 100% sympathetic to the players either.

Maybe it's because they built up the neighborhood and started a TV network that they can't afford their players ? That ownership group appears to be a wee bit over extended. But I digress. Factually I am so far removed that ignorance doesn't even begin to describe my lack of knowledge. I would imagine it's that way for most of us.

 

On 11/29/2020 at 9:53 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Look I know in the late 80's MLB had to pay out a lot of money for losing basically 3 cases of collusion . Uberroth united the owners and Selig and Reinsdorf were at the forefront of it. That's always why I'm so anti-Reinsdorf. I also know that since then there have been more collusion grievances that arbiters never ruled in favor of the players and others that went nowhere for lack of evidence. I would never say the owners aren't a tricky bunch of bastards like the owners of so many multi billion dollar industries. Arbiters weigh the evidence and make a ruling for one side or the other so the arbiter has to be pretty convinced there's enough evidence to rule in favor of the players.

I also know that owners hated Fay Vincent because he didn't support them and saw the players side of it . Vincent just cared about the game , not one side or the other.

I know the owners also hate maverick owners like Ted Turner or Cohen but Cohen did get approved and that there is a salary cap (OK luxury tax) and caps on what you can spend in the international and the college draft. These things were done in the guise of competitive balance which is true to an extent. No matter what the owners do there will always be competitive imbalance because there are very rich teams and then all the other teams on varying degrees of operating capital.

Losing money unites the owners more than anything and that's how Uberroth convinced them to unite and collude for 3 years basically telling them they were idiots to put winning over profits. I sure wouldn't put it passed the owners to be colluding again. I am not that naive but to take a stance that collusion is 100% happening now is a lot more bold than my common sense approach that any opinion I have is based on lack of access to the knowledge needed to say I am 100% sure there is collusion now.

My stance is that everyone else here has that same lack of knowledge and 100% conviction in your opinion should be tempered by that lack of knowledge. I am not carrying water for the owners or the players. I am neutral because of ignorance regarding current events in that regard. If our opinions differ and you think you have the knowledge to help the MLBPA go right ahead. Otherwise you are just spitting into the wind.

Well, you claimed ignorance about financial information, there is plenty of evidence for both record revenue and decreasing salaries, articles written the past 2-3 off-seasons. Non of my comments were about this offseason, but pre-COVID periods. 

Forbes is a good source for information regarding baseball finances. There are a few good articles on Baseball Prospectus (subscription based), Jeff Passan also covered the situation well last off-season. I'll link a couple below:

January 2018 - Here's why baseball's economic system might be broken

November 2019 - Union chief's rebuke of GM heats up baseball's cold war over free agency

Also, we (the correct use of the word, unlike the "we" used by Sox fans as if they are players or front office employees) are here to discuss baseball. If you chalk up discussions to "spitting into the wind" not sure why you are here, or at least engaging in discussions you admittedly do not follow / have little knowledge.

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

Sherman said this is an article today...

"It generally comes down to dollars and cents, and Cohen has the most of that and is operating in a field in which just the Blue Jays, White Sox and perhaps one or two other clubs are revved up to spend in this market."

Ok Jerry.....put your money where your mouth is. 

[thxfrthmmrs]

If Rosario gets non-tendered, is he a better option than Pederson? Pederson is likely the more well rounded player but comes with more boom or bust risk and will likely commit a bit more $$. Could Rosario be had for a 1/$8M deal?

[Jack Parkman]

8 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

If Rosario gets non-tendered, is he a better option than Pederson? Pederson is likely the more well rounded player but comes with more boom or bust risk and will likely commit a bit more $$. Could Rosario be had for a 1/$8M deal?

Rosario isn't a RF, but he could be an option for LF/DH. There's always the option of DHing Eloy if they wanted to. In that case, why not both? 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[thxfrthmmrs]

6 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Rosario isn't a RF, but he could be an option for LF/DH. There's always the option of DHing Eloy if they wanted to. In that case, why not both? 

His arm is strong enough for RF and he grades out as average in limited exposure there. Other than a bad 2019 where he played through an ankle injury he was generally slightly above average in LF. I think he should be able to handle RF alright.

[Chicago White Sox]

21 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

If Rosario gets non-tendered, is he a better option than Pederson? Pederson is likely the more well rounded player but comes with more boom or bust risk and will likely commit a bit more $$. Could Rosario be had for a 1/$8M deal?

Rosario doesn’t seem to be a fit for RF unfortunately

[thxfrthmmrs]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Rosario doesn’t seem to be a fit for RF unfortunately

Other than the fact that he's another free swinger?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, South Side Hit Men said:

 

 

Well, you claimed ignorance about financial information, there is plenty of evidence for both record revenue and decreasing salaries, articles written the past 2-3 off-seasons. Non of my comments were about this offseason, but pre-COVID periods. 

Forbes is a good source for information regarding baseball finances. There are a few good articles on Baseball Prospectus (subscription based), Jeff Passan also covered the situation well last off-season. I'll link a couple below:

January 2018 - Here's why baseball's economic system might be broken

November 2019 - Union chief's rebuke of GM heats up baseball's cold war over free agency

Also, we (the correct use of the word, unlike the "we" used by Sox fans as if they are players or front office employees) are here to discuss baseball. If you chalk up discussions to "spitting into the wind" not sure why you are here, or at least engaging in discussions you admittedly do not follow / have little knowledge.

Everyone states their opinion. Not many minds get changed so yes if we have a strong opinion on something we are spitting into the wind. But I like to write and also to write about my favorite team. Usually just about baseball , player related things. I don't often get drawn into prolonged arguments because it's fruitless but I get especially bothered when a conservative ,admittedly ignorant approach, get's called nonsense ( not by you) as if your opinion, that comes from a little less ignorance, is better than mine.

No matter how many articles you read about the state of the game and it's financials you still are reading conclusions drawn from limited information. Then from all that we get to 100 % certainty there is collusion.  I think Reinsdorf operates in a way he wishes he could convince the rest of the owners to follow, but he can't and it's why he can't but back to back winning seasons together . If the owners were so united it's hard to understand these mega contracts still being given out when most data points to them being crippling to all but the richest teams. Phillies signed Wheeler and Harper and supposedly had vast resources to make those kind of commitments  and now they are claiming they lost $145M in 2020. I think when we form very strong opinions it leads to less open mindedness and less discussion and intolerance.

[thxfrthmmrs]

57 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

His arm is strong enough for RF and he grades out as average in limited exposure there. Other than a bad 2019 where he played through an ankle injury he was generally slightly above average in LF. I think he should be able to handle RF alright.

Also this may surprise a lot of people in the Rosario vs. Pederson comp.

Both played sparingly in RF throughout their career and exclusively LF in 2020 (Rosario had reps). According to Statcast Rosario sprint speed was 26.8 ft/s Joc was 26.5 ft/s. Rosario's outfield jump was in the 33 percentile was Joc was 25 percentile (both didn't fare well). Historically, Rosario also had the better sprint speed, outs above average per Statcast and rARM (outfield arm runs saved above average) per Fielding Bible. We've been beating the Pederson as plan B at RF drum pretty hard, but I think if Rosario gets non-tendered, he's higher on my list as options after Springer.

[turnin' two]

Any one else interested in Sung Bum Na?  The Dinos were my adopted KBO team and I watched quite a bit.  From what I saw, it sure looks like he can hit.  His KBO numbers are great.  He is LH, hits for avg, hits for power, walks at a decent clip.  He is a RF, though DH'ed a bit this year as he was coming off a knee injury (think Ventura's ankle injury... yikes).  But I think he is regarded as being a decent OFer.  

I know eminor is a connoisseur of all things Asian baseball, do you have any insights?  I think after Springer, he is the guy I'd like to pursue.   

[Tnetennba]

2 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Any one else interested in Sung Bum Na?  The Dinos were my adopted KBO team and I watched quite a bit.  From what I saw, it sure looks like he can hit.  His KBO numbers are great.  He is LH, hits for avg, hits for power, walks at a decent clip.  He is a RF, though DH'ed a bit this year as he was coming off a knee injury (think Ventura's ankle injury... yikes).  But I think he is regarded as being a decent OFer.  

I know eminor is a connoisseur of all things Asian baseball, do you have any insights?  I think after Springer, he is the guy I'd like to pursue.   

LH RF with good numbers.  A lot to like on paper, no idea if he would be on the Sox radar.

[CWSpalehoseCWS]

4 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Any one else interested in Sung Bum Na?  The Dinos were my adopted KBO team and I watched quite a bit.  From what I saw, it sure looks like he can hit.  His KBO numbers are great.  He is LH, hits for avg, hits for power, walks at a decent clip.  He is a RF, though DH'ed a bit this year as he was coming off a knee injury (think Ventura's ankle injury... yikes).  But I think he is regarded as being a decent OFer.  

I know eminor is a connoisseur of all things Asian baseball, do you have any insights?  I think after Springer, he is the guy I'd like to pursue.   

I’d entertain it as a possible backup plan. He has interesting stats, but remember the KBO is often considered equivalent to Double-A competition. He’s not going to come over here and hit 30 homers. He carries some risk.

[bmags]

10 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Any one else interested in Sung Bum Na?  The Dinos were my adopted KBO team and I watched quite a bit.  From what I saw, it sure looks like he can hit.  His KBO numbers are great.  He is LH, hits for avg, hits for power, walks at a decent clip.  He is a RF, though DH'ed a bit this year as he was coming off a knee injury (think Ventura's ankle injury... yikes).  But I think he is regarded as being a decent OFer.  

I know eminor is a connoisseur of all things Asian baseball, do you have any insights?  I think after Springer, he is the guy I'd like to pursue.   

I really worry about projects like that when we have no room for error. I think about the Reds in a "competitive" year going with Akiyama as their leadoff hitter and he was terrible. 

[Dick Allen]

59 minutes ago, bmags said:

I really worry about projects like that when we have no room for error. I think about the Reds in a "competitive" year going with Akiyama as their leadoff hitter and he was terrible. 

How about when the Sox went for it in 2016 and up the middle they were Dioner Navarro, Brett Lawrie, Jimmy Rollins and Austin Jackson.

[Leonard Zelig]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

How about when the Sox went for it in 2016 and up the middle they were Dioner Navarro, Brett Lawrie, Jimmy Rollins and Austin Jackson.

That team was 23-10!

[Vulture]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

I really worry about projects like that when we have no room for error. I think about the Reds in a "competitive" year going with Akiyama as their leadoff hitter and he was terrible. 

Sox had two major errors in the lineup this year and still went 35-25. Seems like at worst he'd make a solid fourth outfielder considering he can play centerfield and runs the bases well.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Sox had two major errors in the lineup this year and still went 35-25. Seems like at worst he'd make a solid fourth outfielder considering he can play centerfield and runs the bases well.

And they finished in 3rd place in their division.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

And they finished in 3rd place in their division.

And completely ran out of gas after 50 games

[Vulture]

21 minutes ago, bmags said:

And they finished in 3rd place in their division.

Yeah by one game which Renteria blew with poor moves in a week the Sox with a roster full of rookies allowed fifty runs, which any RFer would have been unlikely to prevent. Sox are on the upswing regardless of who plays RF, provided the pitching staff is addressed adequately. The notion we need a game changer in RF just isn't accurate when we've got Anderson, Robert, Abreu, Jimenez, Grandal, Moncada, Madrigal and Vaughn, along with Engel and Garcia to plug into right if worse comes to worse. Sung-bam is either a mlb caliber player or he isn't. He's already a developed player, so there isnt a question of how he projects to develop. He is whatever he is. it would be up to scouting and LaRussa to decide if he's good enough to add to the roster. Its not like signing him would preclude making any other moves. The question would really be down to whether he was good enough to bump the last man on the bench from the roster not whether he was adequate as starting RFer anyway. 

[Vulture]

Maybe you guys are overestimating what it would take to sign him. Based on previous KBO signings, probably something like 1.5 million posting fee and 3.5 million contract would be my guess. If the Sox thought he was good enough for at bare minimum a bench role, I don't see the problem. Sometimes you get rewarded for making a bit of a low risk stretch

Edited December 1, 2020 by Vulture

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, Vulture said:

Maybe you guys are overestimating what it would take to sign him. Based on previous KBO signings, probably something like 1.5 million posting fee and 3.5 million contract would be my guess. If the Sox thought he was good enough for at bare minimum a bench role, I don't see the problem. Sometimes you get rewarded for making a bit of a low risk stretch

Most of the time you get a low risk return, which is why 29 other teams didn't talk him in to coming over.

[turnin' two]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I really worry about projects like that when we have no room for error. I think about the Reds in a "competitive" year going with Akiyama as their leadoff hitter and he was terrible. 

Yeah, definitely not sure how he would translate, but I think signing a guy to be your 8 hitter inherently carries less risk than signing someone to be your leadoff hitter.  And after Springer, there sure seems to be a drop off.  It seems like JBJ would be better because of his D, and Pedersen because of his power potential, but maybe after those guys?  I really don't know, just throwing it out there.